What is too much to pay for a tree?

[Cadillactaste]

i guess i cant even imagine 90% of those variables

imho that change fits the tree better
i wonder also what estimated age could be that trident - rarely mentioned info

To many to even begin to list. That's why I chose the same species... so polor opposite.

Thanks... I'm a sucker for any cascade. I was actually drawn to the dramatic image I bought. Upon arriving...I felt once in leaf. You would lose sight of the trunk itself. I feel its more of a traditional style. I wanted the base flare seen in leaf. Thus the angle change.

As to age...I honestly don't concern myself with that. I feel most age applied to trees, a seller's puffing a sale. Now time in training I feel easier to calculate. I don't believe I even asked though. I liked the overall tree. That information wasn't shared at sale. So I assumed unknown.

I also am...put off anymore. Asking on specifics. I rarely ask the history of a tree. I had one seller...who apparently had a beef with me. Concoct a story...when I shared it to a group I happened to be an administrator of at the time . The seller flat out tagged the individual I was chatting with...and called me a liar. That he owned the tree prior. Well...I don't believe in sharing personal conversations. But don't call me a liar. I screenshot his history of the tree. Which he had shared to me. He laughed about it. Blows my mind ones mental mentality there. That...it left a sour taste in my mouth. I find I ask less on the trees information now. As...it truly makes me question all information shared...as puffing a sale. When I had already purchased the tree. There was no need for puffing.

 

[blackadam]

Up here this would be at least double, if not triple that price.

suprisingly correct estimation, only 'similiar' olives i found available here, described as silvestris
lot of others cheap stick in the pot or human size trees in a pot for like 1000$

I'm a sucker for any cascade.

More i see then more i like that style
Commited an attempt with lemon seedling as experiment earlier this year, will see results in some time i hope, seedling still alive

As to age...I honestly don't concern myself with that.

Im curious about age because once asked a friend about age of small trees that catch my eye in local park.
Shie replied "Oh i was little girl when they planted them" - friend is about 60...
I would like see some effects sooner than 50 years, my lemon took 5 years from seedling to 11mm trunk in 5 years, so looking for something faster an thicker on the low budget
If plant i like is cheap for me (like 10$) i buy (like my cherry which i bought to learn overwintering, and for blooms if survive)
if i see stick in a pot for like 50$ im rather afraid to ask how much will cost the tree in development stage and age that i would like..

 

[Cadillactaste]

suprisingly correct estimation, only 'similiar' olives i found available here, described as silvestris
lot of others cheap stick in the pot or human size trees in a pot for like 1000$

View attachment 611077



More i see then more i like that style
Commited an attempt with lemon seedling as experiment earlier this year, will see results in some time i hope, seedling still alive

Im curious about age because once asked a friend about age of small trees that catch my eye in local park.
Shie replied "Oh i was little girl when they planted them" - friend is about 60...
I would like see some effects sooner than 50 years, my lemon took 5 years from seedling to 11mm trunk in 5 years, so looking for something faster an thicker on the low budget
If plant i like is cheap for me (like 10$) i buy (like my cherry which i bought to learn overwintering, and for blooms if survive)
if i see stick in a pot for like 50$ im rather afraid to ask how much will cost the tree in development stage and age that i would like..

Check marketplace in your area for ones cleaning older landscape. Collection would be the way to go for thicker trees on a budget price.

Are you affiliated with a bonsai club? People think their collections with club auctions and you can pick up material cheap or even they pass them along for free.

My Ryusen...is my largest tree. Collected back in 2014 as it was decimated by the harsh winter. A chop...but a tree I am quite proud of. The pot is over 15 inches round...and the canopy spread is 4 foot.

 

[Cadillactaste]

*thin their collections in club settings. I really need to proofread .

 

[baron]

Not the first time I think this question gets asked. As Adair would say, it depend.. on many things..
Depends on the availability of the material, the goal you have set for yourself or the tree and the amount of work & time you're willing to put in.

Growing, making, building trees, however you wanna call it... it takes time and usually isn't done in one lifetime.

Buy the material, you can afford, as close as possible to your goal.

 

[blackadam]

Check marketplace in your area for ones cleaning older landscape.

Checking, could collect DIY (dig it yourself) 10 year fruiting cherry about 2m height and thicker than my arm for 15 EUR(like 18$ ... if i have some space to keep it (im restricted to indoors and just started 1 box on rather small balcony)
also looking for mallsai on discount

Are you affiliated with a bonsai club?

Nothing in my area / im aware of - most of sites and forums are expired or dead, i guess everything switched to facebook or something

My Ryusen

WOW
and that 4 legged red-white model convinced to pose
I rather keep my dog away from trees..

 

[rockm]

I mean, you’re probably asking the wrong guy. If I had space and money for metalworking tools, I would be living that life. I would be lying if I said I haven’t looked into buying a mini mill and a small forge.

Anyway, I’m not trying to say that I (or anyone else) need to do every step of the process for it to be worthwhile, but certainly, the more I do myself, the more value I see in it. I think it comes down to what your goals are. If it’s to own really nice trees, buying already developed or somewhat developed ones makes a lot of sense. If the goal is to design and develop trees, to learn and grow with those trees…

My perspective is heavily informed by my background as an artist. It would be pretty weird to buy a half-finished painting or sculpture if I wanted to do some art. Like wearing someone else’s underwear. But I get that good trees will outlive people, so of course, it’s not directly analogous, and I understand the curatorial aspect. But in the context of this thread, I think we’re much closer to “how to start developing trees” than “how to manage your endowment and care for your priceless collection of master works”.

Uh. Bonsai aren’t paintings or sculptures. They’re alive. As such they change all the time. Subtle shifts become dramatic changes over the years and vice versa. There is no western comparison to bonsai. It exists in four dimensions. The fourth is time. Painting and sculpture is finished when the artist steps away and declares their work complete. Not so for bonsai. Whatever was implemented by one person changes, sometimes completely, by nature and time

That is where people who haven’t worked in older bonsai misunderstand or can’t see and make all kinds of conclusions.

The “gotta be ALLL mine” thing is pretty silly IMO. It’s not “yours”. The thought you’re going to hand down “your” trees to future generations is pretty arrogant. What you’re doing is (if you do well with a tree) is handing over mostly a blank canvas for someone else unless you’re Joh Naka good at this. Most of us ain’t. What you make (if the tree doesn’t die right after you from lack of care) will likely be torn down and restarted in another way.

 

[Cadillactaste]

@blackadam ... ahhhh, you have an entire different scenario than myself. Indoors and a small balcony. Wasn't considering that scenario.

I don't belong to any bonsai club. It's not impossible to do bonsai. Just your resources are less available as in no club auctions and whatnot.

But maybe hold off on collecting things. You are limited on space. You need to truly get a game plan down on what you can do successfully.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I've three dogs. They are taught the leave it command. The one up front
/left is going on 10 mths old. He's been curious of the fertilizer. But learning his place...and commands.

 

[JoeWilson]

Uh. Bonsai aren’t paintings or sculptures. They’re alive. As such they change all the time. Subtle shifts become dramatic changes over the years and vice versa. There is no western comparison to bonsai. It exists in four dimensions. The fourth is time. Painting and sculpture is finished when the artist steps away and declares their work complete. Not so for bonsai. Whatever was implemented by one person changes, sometimes completely, by nature and time

That is where people who haven’t worked in older bonsai misunderstand or can’t see and make all kinds of conclusions.

The “gotta be ALLL mine” thing is pretty silly IMO. It’s not “yours”. The thought you’re going to hand down “your” trees to future generations is pretty arrogant. What you’re doing is (if you do well with a tree) is handing over mostly a blank canvas for someone else unless you’re Joh Naka good at this. Most of us ain’t. What you make (if the tree doesn’t die right after you from lack of care) will likely be torn down and restarted in another way.

As I said in the reply you’ve quoted, bonsai isn’t directly analogous to other forms of art, so I’m not sure who you’re arguing with there.

When it comes to passing my trees down to future generations, I don’t assume my trees will ever be good enough to survive multiple generations. Heck, I don’t assume my trees will live through the winter. If I leave a bunch of trees around when I die, I would look at that as more of a burden to someone than a gift to the world. Nor did I say anything about expecting my trees to be frozen in time.

In any case, let me try to clarify a little better. I do not view involvement in the development of a tree as a black-and-white or binary concept. It's a spectrum, with growing a tree from seed on one end and buying a fully developed 50-year-old tree on the other. The more involved I am, the earlier on, the more ownership I feel over the process. I feel the same way about any creative endeavor.

 

[BrightsideB]

I mean, you’re probably asking the wrong guy. If I had space and money for metalworking tools, I would be living that life. I would be lying if I said I haven’t looked into buying a mini mill and a small forge.

Anyway, I’m not trying to say that I (or anyone else) need to do every step of the process for it to be worthwhile, but certainly, the more I do myself, the more value I see in it. I think it comes down to what your goals are. If it’s to own really nice trees, buying already developed or somewhat developed ones makes a lot of sense. If the goal is to design and develop trees, to learn and grow with those trees…

My perspective is heavily informed by my background as an artist. It would be pretty weird to buy a half-finished painting or sculpture if I wanted to do some art. Like wearing someone else’s underwear. But I get that good trees will outlive people, so of course, it’s not directly analogous, and I understand the curatorial aspect. But in the context of this thread, I think we’re much closer to “how to start developing trees” than “how to manage your endowment and care for your priceless collection of master works”.

I did blacksmithing and welding professionally for a decade after HS. I apprenticed and worked around the country. Starting a forge isn’t easy! I wish you luck though, it’s a lot of hard work and fun!

Think of it as working on projects with other people rather than solo. That’s one thing I’ve found to be the beauty in bonsai. It’s not just about a single individual and their work. The wider community is a collective sharing work, techniques, passion, and time. It’s more than an art form. But still has many aspects of creativity and a form of art.

 

[blackadam]

But maybe hold off on collecting things. You are limited on space.

Already extended windowsill and got 2 stage setup on half window for indoor things.
Gonna start working some fusion projects next year so i guess i will have some more space
If i succesfully overwinter cherry prob gonna get some more trees to fill up coldframe
Mine also know commands, but i keep things "out of dog range" just for safety
Now 13 years old, few years ago he was 4 legged shredder, here working on some deadwood features

what you can do successfully.

Can keep alive some citrus, flowering cherries grows outdoor near me so i should be able to grow it in balcony , forsythias, oaks, some acers
Need to stay away from boxwood because heavy moth infestation in my area

game plan

for now at least twice trunk caliper than things i have, being able to keep alive, as cheap as i can get
get some of my lemons to bloom
learn few more things (overwintering, air layering, better grafting, more succesful rooting)
choosing material i can work with for good price and being able to keep alive
Lot of things i see for sale dont catch my eye and im like wtf why so expensive stick in a pot
Interesting trees are way beyond my price or available space range
I dont have an eye yet to choose trees i want and dont want waste money on something i dont like, would take ages for development or i cant keep alive
Seems i need decent cheap starting material and step up in fertilizing

 

[JoeWilson]

I did blacksmithing and welding professionally for a decade after HS. I apprenticed and worked around the country. Starting a forge isn’t easy! I wish you luck though, it’s a lot of hard work and fun!

Think of it as working on projects with other people rather than solo. That’s one thing I’ve found to be the beauty in bonsai. It’s not just about a single individual and their work. The wider community is a collective sharing work, techniques, passion, and time. It’s more than an art form. But still has many aspects of creativity and a form of art.

Yeah, that's the main thing that has been preventing me from seriously considering it. I need another all-consuming hobby like I need a hole in the head.

I think collaboration is a good way to think about it for bonsai. Most of my professional art career involves collaboration and some level of design by committee, so I'm not trying to suggest that there is no artistry or ownership over the work if you're not the sole creator. But this is one of the main reasons why, in my personal projects (art, woodworking, bonsai, etc), it's nice to work solo. I don't have to please a bunch of different people. I get enough of that in my day job.

 

[DeepSouth]

Obviously the answer to this question depends on the individual goals of the bonsai practitioner. Personally, about 70% of my collection are yamadori or seedlings and the other 30% are purchased, with half of those purchased being a bit more refined and the other half being pre-bonsai. None are show worthy, but a few might be within the next five years. Having a collection that spans the full range of seedling to more refined specimens is the only way to be able to learn all aspects of the art, and I don't want to wait 30 years for my starter material to develop to begin learning how to work with more mature trees.

Purchasing (or being gifted) more refined specimens is the only way to do that. Once you have the ability to keep trees alive, that is. When purchasing a tree, I do so with the full understanding that there is a chance the tree may die and the money will be gone forever. It's not a safe investment (I have heard people try to justify it as an investment).

My motivation for the art is personal enjoyment and to show to my family and friends. Yamadori gives me the most joy, but purchasing trees that I can practice refined work on does as well, so I do.

 

[The Barber]

If money is an issue, I recommend hitting up land owners for permission to dig. Worst case scenario is that they say no, best case scenario is you find an amazing trunk to work with for the price of a bit of elbow grease.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Uh. Bonsai aren’t paintings or sculptures. They’re alive. As such they change all the time. Subtle shifts become dramatic changes over the years and vice versa. There is no western comparison to bonsai. It exists in four dimensions. The fourth is time. Painting and sculpture is finished when the artist steps away and declares their work complete. Not so for bonsai. Whatever was implemented by one person changes, sometimes completely, by nature and time

That is where people who haven’t worked in older bonsai misunderstand or can’t see and make all kinds of conclusions.

The “gotta be ALLL mine” thing is pretty silly IMO. It’s not “yours”. The thought you’re going to hand down “your” trees to future generations is pretty arrogant. What you’re doing is (if you do well with a tree) is handing over mostly a blank canvas for someone else unless you’re Joh Naka good at this. Most of us ain’t. What you make (if the tree doesn’t die right after you from lack of care) will likely be torn down and restarted in another way.

I'm the arrogant and silly guy who hopes my trees will live beyond my own life.

Every single "good" tree was started by someone, whether from seed or from digging up from the top of a mountain. There is absolutely NOTHING WRONG with anyone here starting the process from scratch.

If we were in a different hobby, say RC planes, I'd be the guy with the Toys'R'Us kids plane. You'd be the guy with the 1/8 scale 747 with actual jets who flies with FPV goggles, trying to convince me that if I don't also spend $50k, I'll never truly enjoy the hobby. If I could afford the 747, I would get it, but I can't.

 

[rockm]

Obviously the answer to this question depends on the individual goals of the bonsai practitioner. Personally, about 70% of my collection are yamadori or seedlings and the other 30% are purchased, with half of those purchased being a bit more refined and the other half being pre-bonsai. None are show worthy, but a few might be within the next five years. Having a collection that spans the full range of seedling to more refined specimens is the only way to be able to learn all aspects of the art, and I don't want to wait 30 years for my starter material to develop to begin learning how to work with more mature trees.

Purchasing (or being gifted) more refined specimens is the only way to do that. Once you have the ability to keep trees alive, that is. When purchasing a tree, I do so with the full understanding that there is a chance the tree may die and the money will be gone forever. It's not a safe investment (I have heard people try to justify it as an investment).

My motivation for the art is personal enjoyment and to show to my family and friends. Yamadori gives me the most joy, but purchasing trees that I can practice refined work on does as well, so I do.

Gotta love the “it’s an investment”. It is a very very good way to lose money. Ask any bonsai biz owner

 

[Attmos]

If money is an issue, I recommend hitting up land owners for permission to dig. Worst case scenario is that they say no, best case scenario is you find an amazing trunk to work with for the price of a bit of elbow grease.

That's a great suggestion. Might even help to have a couple bags of dirt with you so you can fill the hole.

 

[Attmos]

Obviously the answer to this question depends on the individual goals of the bonsai practitioner. Personally, about 70% of my collection are yamadori or seedlings and the other 30% are purchased, with half of those purchased being a bit more refined and the other half being pre-bonsai. None are show worthy, but a few might be within the next five years. Having a collection that spans the full range of seedling to more refined specimens is the only way to be able to learn all aspects of the art, and I don't want to wait 30 years for my starter material to develop to begin learning how to work with more mature trees.

Purchasing (or being gifted) more refined specimens is the only way to do that. Once you have the ability to keep trees alive, that is. When purchasing a tree, I do so with the full understanding that there is a chance the tree may die and the money will be gone forever. It's not a safe investment (I have heard people try to justify it as an investment).

My motivation for the art is personal enjoyment and to show to my family and friends. Yamadori gives me the most joy, but purchasing trees that I can practice refined work on does as well, so I do.

 

[rockm]

I'm the arrogant and silly guy who hopes my trees will live beyond my own life.

Every single "good" tree was started by someone, whether from seed or from digging up from the top of a mountain. There is absolutely NOTHING WRONG with anyone here starting the process from scratch.

If we were in a different hobby, say RC planes, I'd be the guy with the Toys'R'Us kids plane. You'd be the guy with the 1/8 scale 747 with actual jets who flies with FPV goggles, trying to convince me that if I don't also spend $50k, I'll never truly enjoy the hobby. If I could afford the 747, I would get it, but I can't.

Thats hilarious. You really don’t get it. I haven’t bought ready made bonsai. I have followed the exact path you and other DIY fanatics are. What I am saying til I am blue in the face is to stop being martyrs to cheap futureless material if you want something to come from your effort. I stopped going to landscape nurseries a very long time ago. Money spent there isn’t well spent. Period. You get vanilla trees with vanilla futures. I began collecting my own trees from the wild as well as broadening my bonsai world in real life through club contacts getting to know bonsai nursery owners who have great trees and long good reps.

I found out WHERE to look most effectively cost wise and quality wise.