What is too much to pay for a tree?

[Cadillactaste]

I'm not judging you. My comment was far from judgemental. On the contrary I think I understand that after a while, growing from seed or seedling could eventually seem like a severe waste of time. I'm not criticizing at all.
I'm simply pointing out that others might be satisfied with less complete or notable trees for their effort, because the effort in and of itself is satisfying.

Head tilt as I do when I go deep in thought... I never felt judged. Just my perceptive...trying to put a positive outlook on things. You're good.

Years back...we had a photo of what we called the peace pot. (ANYONE REMEMBER IT?) When one was trying to be kind in a thread where tension was growing. It was added to their post. It had rabbits on it and I'm thinking a rainbow.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Thoughts about phases of Bonsai

raising trees from seed and cuttings, then nurturing young seedlings, - This is the "Propagator's Phase. No bonsai techniques required. Anyone with basic horticulture techniques can do this.

Nurseryman's Phase - this is taking the young seedlings above and bringing them up to gallon (3 or 4 liter) pots, Or up to 5 gallon or 10 or even larger size pots. Here again this is all horticulture. No bonsai techniques required. Now in a bonsai specific nursery there might be some root pruning, or possibly moving them into special low and wide containers like Anderson flats. But this is the exception rather than the rule. This will usually bring you through the first 10 years of a seedlings life.

Converting nursery stock to pre-bonsai, this process can take 3 to 5 years, or more. This is definitely moving trees to wider shallower containers. Some initial pruning, and definitely some root training (pruning) at this point.

Most Pre-bonsai, that are ready to take their first styling, (I'm thinking north-temperate climate trees) are somewhere over 10 years, usually over 15 years, and can be much older. Especially conifers will require much more time to get to "first styling" often 20 years for a pine or spruce.

So the point is, most material less than 20 years old, did not require any "bonsai techniques" , getting them ready is all horticulture.

This means that nursery stock, does not "teach you about bonsai" as none of the skills required are bonsai skills.

So if you want to DO BONSAI TECHNIQUES, invest in older material, or material that already has the "nurseryman phase" behind them.

Collecting from the wild can get you around the "Nurseryman phase" though there is the several year period where the collected tree needs to adjust to life in a pot. This is where horticulture again is key, rather bonsai techniques.

Shohin trees, because of their small size, can allow you to short cut off a number of years of the process I outlined. The steps are the same, but their size means you get the tree to size a few years quicker. Though to get a refined looking shohin can take just as long as a larger tree.

Tropicals - I'm expressing my experience in a cold winter climate, near Chicago. Obviously tropical trees, in tropical climates or greenhouses or under the better grow light systems can grow faster than a pine outside near Chicago. Probably cut the time in half with tropicals if you have the right environment for them. Note, I have a Ficus, that is indoors for winter, outdoors for summer, and because my indoor set up is not ideal for Ficus, it does not grow any faster than my elms or other deciduous outdoor trees. When inside my Ficus grows slowly if at all. Then bursts into growth in early summer. So your horticulture is everything. If your set up doesn't suite the tree, it won't grow very well.

 

[Attmos]

Head tilt as I do when I go deep in thought... I never felt judged. Just my perceptive...trying to put a positive outlook on things. You're good.

Years back...we had a photo of what we called the peace pot. (ANYONE REMEMBER IT?) When one was trying to be kind in a thread where tension was growing. It was added to their post. It had rabbits on it and I'm thinking a rainbow.

Ok. Cool.
I do remember being critical of you for this very thing a while ago, on one of your posts. I didn't understand yet, the sheer amount of time it takes to produce a tree ready to style as a Bonsai. I do understand and I apologize for that. You probly don't remember, but I think I did rub some people the wrong way.
I, like you, am just trying to resolve any tension there might be.

 

[Attmos]

Thoughts about phases of Bonsai

raising trees from seed and cuttings, then nurturing young seedlings, - This is the "Propagator's Phase. No bonsai techniques required. Anyone with basic horticulture techniques can do this.

Nurseryman's Phase - this is taking the young seedlings above and bringing them up to gallon (3 or 4 liter) pots, Or up to 5 gallon or 10 or even larger size pots. Here again this is all horticulture. No bonsai techniques required. Now in a bonsai specific nursery there might be some root pruning, or possibly moving them into special low and wide containers like Anderson flats. But this is the exception rather than the rule. This will usually bring you through the first 10 years of a seedlings life.

Converting nursery stock to pre-bonsai, this process can take 3 to 5 years, or more. This is definitely moving trees to wider shallower containers. Some initial pruning, and definitely some root training (pruning) at this point.

Most Pre-bonsai, that are ready to take their first styling, (I'm thinking north-temperate climate trees) are somewhere over 10 years, usually over 15 years, and can be much older. Especially conifers will require much more time to get to "first styling" often 20 years for a pine or spruce.

So the point is, most material less than 20 years old, did not require any "bonsai techniques" , getting them ready is all horticulture.

This means that nursery stock, does not "teach you about bonsai" as none of the skills required are bonsai skills.

So if you want to DO BONSAI TECHNIQUES, invest in older material, or material that already has the "nurseryman phase" behind them.

Collecting from the wild can get you around the "Nurseryman phase" though there is the several year period where the collected tree needs to adjust to life in a pot. This is where horticulture again is key, rather bonsai techniques.

Shohin trees, because of their small size, can allow you to short cut off a number of years of the process I outlined. The steps are the same, but their size means you get the tree to size a few years quicker. Though to get a refined looking shohin can take just as long as a larger tree.

Tropicals - I'm expressing my experience in a cold winter climate, near Chicago. Obviously tropical trees, in tropical climates or greenhouses or under the better grow light systems can grow faster than a pine outside near Chicago. Probably cut the time in half with tropicals if you have the right environment for them. Note, I have a Ficus, that is indoors for winter, outdoors for summer, and because my indoor set up is not ideal for Ficus, it does not grow any faster than my elms or other deciduous outdoor trees. When inside my Ficus grows slowly if at all. Then bursts into growth in early summer. So your horticulture is everything. If your set up doesn't suite the tree, it won't grow very well.

Sounds like a good analysis.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I just think the people who are more advanced are a little tough on those still beginning sometimes.

Doesn't seem productive, unless you present more advanced material as a future for the hobby... as opposed to saying that small and collected trees are a waste of time.
Does this make sense or am I off on a weird tangent again?

You make sense, but I think the vast majority of experienced bonsai people are just trying to help us newbs save years of our lives, especially when we expect a beautiful, finished bonsai within a few years from seed. I think it's a good thing to be told this, as I was. Just look at my first threads. I was clueless and several people gave me a good talking to. I needed it.

I often respond to new b-nuts here with the same things that were told to me. If nothing else, it saves the old vets from having to do it for the 1000th time.

However, to argue that growing seedlings is a waste of time is a personal opinion and not helpful for all.

 

[nuttiest]

Joining the conversation late.

Awww,crap. I was thinking the some of smart ones who could really answer this have been silent... Let this dude figure out what bonsai is and is not for himself.
You disappoint with words now. : )

 

[Michigan Tree Murderer]

I've been to several local nurseries this summer, seen a lot of beautiful plants and trees. It's been a nice change from my normal habits.

Most of the trees with decent trunk are at least $150, the ones I like are about $200.

I want to buy something worth working on, but is $200 more than I could or should be spending? They have cheap Box Woods and stuff like that, but real trees are pretty expensive.

Seems like I could do better but maybe I'm expecting too much. What does the community think?

one million dollars! Is the correct answer.

I'm of the thinking do what you like, and can afford. Did I pay too much for this one? Maybe. But I bought it for myself and trust me I'm worth it. and where else can I get a non-grafted JM that I know the cultivar of at 25+ years old?

$800. Cars paid off so it's less than two car payments in my head.



Tiny leaves

 

[Adamski77]

Thoughts about phases of Bonsai

raising trees from seed and cuttings, then nurturing young seedlings, - This is the "Propagator's Phase. No bonsai techniques required. Anyone with basic horticulture techniques can do this.

Nurseryman's Phase - this is taking the young seedlings above and bringing them up to gallon (3 or 4 liter) pots, Or up to 5 gallon or 10 or even larger size pots. Here again this is all horticulture. No bonsai techniques required. Now in a bonsai specific nursery there might be some root pruning, or possibly moving them into special low and wide containers like Anderson flats. But this is the exception rather than the rule. This will usually bring you through the first 10 years of a seedlings life.

Converting nursery stock to pre-bonsai, this process can take 3 to 5 years, or more. This is definitely moving trees to wider shallower containers. Some initial pruning, and definitely some root training (pruning) at this point.

Most Pre-bonsai, that are ready to take their first styling, (I'm thinking north-temperate climate trees) are somewhere over 10 years, usually over 15 years, and can be much older. Especially conifers will require much more time to get to "first styling" often 20 years for a pine or spruce.

So the point is, most material less than 20 years old, did not require any "bonsai techniques" , getting them ready is all horticulture.

This means that nursery stock, does not "teach you about bonsai" as none of the skills required are bonsai skills.

So if you want to DO BONSAI TECHNIQUES, invest in older material, or material that already has the "nurseryman phase" behind them.

Collecting from the wild can get you around the "Nurseryman phase" though there is the several year period where the collected tree needs to adjust to life in a pot. This is where horticulture again is key, rather bonsai techniques.

Shohin trees, because of their small size, can allow you to short cut off a number of years of the process I outlined. The steps are the same, but their size means you get the tree to size a few years quicker. Though to get a refined looking shohin can take just as long as a larger tree.

Tropicals - I'm expressing my experience in a cold winter climate, near Chicago. Obviously tropical trees, in tropical climates or greenhouses or under the better grow light systems can grow faster than a pine outside near Chicago. Probably cut the time in half with tropicals if you have the right environment for them. Note, I have a Ficus, that is indoors for winter, outdoors for summer, and because my indoor set up is not ideal for Ficus, it does not grow any faster than my elms or other deciduous outdoor trees. When inside my Ficus grows slowly if at all. Then bursts into growth in early summer. So your horticulture is everything. If your set up doesn't suite the tree, it won't grow very well.

thank you for that post... I've never seen it more clearly laid out...

 

[Wood]

Thoughts about phases of Bonsai

raising trees from seed and cuttings, then nurturing young seedlings, - This is the "Propagator's Phase. No bonsai techniques required. Anyone with basic horticulture techniques can do this.

Nurseryman's Phase - this is taking the young seedlings above and bringing them up to gallon (3 or 4 liter) pots, Or up to 5 gallon or 10 or even larger size pots. Here again this is all horticulture. No bonsai techniques required. Now in a bonsai specific nursery there might be some root pruning, or possibly moving them into special low and wide containers like Anderson flats. But this is the exception rather than the rule. This will usually bring you through the first 10 years of a seedlings life.

Converting nursery stock to pre-bonsai, this process can take 3 to 5 years, or more. This is definitely moving trees to wider shallower containers. Some initial pruning, and definitely some root training (pruning) at this point.

Most Pre-bonsai, that are ready to take their first styling, (I'm thinking north-temperate climate trees) are somewhere over 10 years, usually over 15 years, and can be much older. Especially conifers will require much more time to get to "first styling" often 20 years for a pine or spruce.

So the point is, most material less than 20 years old, did not require any "bonsai techniques" , getting them ready is all horticulture.

This means that nursery stock, does not "teach you about bonsai" as none of the skills required are bonsai skills.

So if you want to DO BONSAI TECHNIQUES, invest in older material, or material that already has the "nurseryman phase" behind them.

Collecting from the wild can get you around the "Nurseryman phase" though there is the several year period where the collected tree needs to adjust to life in a pot. This is where horticulture again is key, rather bonsai techniques.

Shohin trees, because of their small size, can allow you to short cut off a number of years of the process I outlined. The steps are the same, but their size means you get the tree to size a few years quicker. Though to get a refined looking shohin can take just as long as a larger tree.

Tropicals - I'm expressing my experience in a cold winter climate, near Chicago. Obviously tropical trees, in tropical climates or greenhouses or under the better grow light systems can grow faster than a pine outside near Chicago. Probably cut the time in half with tropicals if you have the right environment for them. Note, I have a Ficus, that is indoors for winter, outdoors for summer, and because my indoor set up is not ideal for Ficus, it does not grow any faster than my elms or other deciduous outdoor trees. When inside my Ficus grows slowly if at all. Then bursts into growth in early summer. So your horticulture is everything. If your set up doesn't suite the tree, it won't grow very well.

This is where a lot of my skepticism about learning from entirely your own seedlings/propagated material comes from. You can spend 10-20 years before really doing much bonsai-specific techniques, and now you're just starting to learn what you need to know.

Which means that your backyard has looked like a nursery for the last 10 years. Kinda rough place to host a bbq with family and friends, or sit around a fire pit with your spouse.

And you'll spend another ten years getting good at the bonsai techniques you're just starting to learn. People apprentice in Japan for five years of 80 hour work weeks, and come out of it saying "I'm pretty sure this is how it should be done but I'm really just making an educated guess"

Some small backyard projects are fun, but I want to sprinkle that around amongst trees that I'm starting to refine

 

[The Barber]

@The Barber Thanks man. That's awesome. Yeah, you really love those massive trees and I love to see it!
I really need to make a weekend yamadori road trip.

Most of them aren't as massive as they look. I swear I prefer smaller trees, occasionally big specimens just have their own gravity and they pull me in.

To stay on topic, and to back up your claims, here's one way to get large old material, for free, which is my favorite price. Unless you count how much work that extraction will be, and about a mile hike, mostly uphill carrying it will be extra fun. This is a very old dogwood (Cornus Florida) with a 12 inch base that I've been contemplating as a heavily carved and fully hollowed trunk, which hopefully it would reduce the weight significantly. It would be chopped back in the neighborhood of what you see in this photo. I have always loved how petite dogwoods are, but the way they branch and the leaf size, I feel would be better suited for a large tree, so petite is out the window. I have been looking for a dogwood with a base with character for a while, most Cornus Florida usually are just very plain, straight upright growing and lack character. Developing a thick trunk with taper would take forever on this species as well, they grow very slow, so I have a game plan, one that could easily be used on another species. This is just an example of what you can do with large material.

Interestingly, it only has 5 branches that reach out of the edge of the woods. Probably a 25ft tall tree or better (for now).

A tree of this size will require at least a couple years of work to be 100 percent sure that there will be feeder roots near the trunk though.

The 1st spring I will chop the trunk back to around 20 inches or so and seal the cut really well so that the tree can respond by growing new branches during the growing season. Then I will use my sawzall, about 1 to 2 ft from the base, and cut a half circle. I will most likely trench the cut side and dig under the root ball and attempt to cut any tap root and work on the large roots near the cut. Then I will loosen up the topsoil and mix in some Osmocote or another slow release fertilizer so that more oxygen can get into the forest soil. This should improve the soil on the cut side and encourage feeder roots to grow. Theoretically the roots on the other side of the tree will remain intact to keep the tree healthy while the cut roots respond by producing new feeder roots into the trench soil.

The second spring I will prune the new growth if need be, also checking to make sure the wound is still sealed well. Cut the half circle on the opposite side of the previous spring, trench, repeat.

The 3rd spring theoretically the tree will be safe for collection with about as minimal risk of losing the tree as possible

I will not be creating deadwood like the yamadori Yaupon Holly in the picture below has, I doubt dogwood deadwood would last long. What I do plan is to hollow it similarly to create taper, then let it roll over and into the hollow eventually. Years of natural decay on a tree in the wild like this yamadori has endured can be replicated through the use of pretty much a diagonal cut and some carving tools.

If you are willing to put forth the effort, you can create the appearance of age, and taper from even a mediocre stuml, for free. Look for one with a bit of root flare and a nice nebari. There are many ancient oaks in Europe that I like to study for inspiration sometimes, it goes to prove that even a thick trunk without taper can be used to create bonsai similar to many of the ancient hollow trees you'll find in nature.

Bonsai doesn't have to be expensive, not everyone can afford to buy highly refined trees. This is just one way, among the many many ways you can go about create a really interesting tree on a budget, and saving many years of trunk grow out. Thankfully Europe is full of ancient oaks. I look at old trees in nature, in photos, and contemplate ways to recreate what nature does best. With old, large material I feel like you have to visualize the tree within the tree, and remove material till you have a good foundation to build upon, similar to how I would cut an overgrown haircut down to something excellent.

Hope this inspires some folks, and maybe gets a few to think outside the box.

 

[blackadam]

I totally get that. I assume that as I grow more competent, My desire for more advanced work will grow, and seedlings will become less satisfying.

I just think the people who are more advanced are a little tough on those still beginning sometimes.

Doesn't seem productive, unless you present more advanced material as a future for the hobby... as opposed to saying that small and collected trees are a waste of time.
Does this make sense or am I off on a weird tangent again?

Its not a waste of time, u always learn something but rather its introduction to horticulture and lean to the bonsai side
Leo analysis is great, im still shocked how accurately people here can recap things about phases, prices etc
seems we need to find 20+ years old decent tree to start

 

[Cadillactaste]

Ok. Cool.
I do remember being critical of you for this very thing a while ago, on one of your posts. I didn't understand yet, the sheer amount of time it takes to produce a tree ready to style as a Bonsai. I do understand and I apologize for that. You probly don't remember, but I think I did rub some people the wrong way.
I, like you, am just trying to resolve any tension there might be.

We're good. Yeah...don't recall that at all. Apparently it never registered on my radar. Because nowadays...I toss ones quickly onto my ignore list. If I get the wrong vibes.

I do appreciate your trying to set things straight between us. But...nothing is crooked.

 

[TomP]

One of the unstated problems is good pre-bonsai is fairly scarce in the United States. Japan has an entire ecosystem that is devoted to this and material there is quite a bit less expensive. (The high end is also more expensive but the quality is there). Europe also has a better ecosystem for this than the US does, partially because they can import trees. And not to pick a nit, there are some very specific techniques to grow good pre-bonsai so you have much better material than what you would get from a garden nursery.

John Eads at Left Coast bonsai is working with some growers across the country to try to improve this. I am one of them and have about 400 trees mulched into raised beds I am developing--the oldest are about six years old now. My target is to keep 500 trees in development. Most I start from seeds or cuttings. The goal is to get more trees out there to improve the availability for hobbyists and proffesionals alike. I only mess with these trees once or twice a year so it takes some time but is not overly burdensome. When I retire from my day job for a few years I will start selling them.

My personal collection however is now focused on acquiring and developing superior quality trees. I am trying to keep my collection to 40 trees or so as the management is much more intensive. So maybe I have the best of both worlds.

 

[BrianBay9]

T here's one way to get large old material, for free, which is my favorite price. Unless you count how much work that extraction will be, and about a mile hike, mostly uphill carrying it will be extra fun........If you are willing to put forth the effort, you can create the appearance of age, and taper from even a mediocre stuml, for free........

I would argue that for the vast number of bonsai people collecting is far from free. You may own land with collectable material but most don't. As you've noted, there's the time and effort in collecting - could be fun depending on your perspective. For most cost will include permits, travel, time searching (often failing) to find the right tree, gas and hotel, box for collected tree, soil components, fertilizer and water for a number of years before working the tree, and the possibility that after all that the tree won't make it anyway. I've collected a lot and always enjoyed it, but never considered it free.

You guys seem to have a great spot to pull some wonderful stock though.....

 

[leatherback]

For most cost will include permits, travel, time searching (often failing) to find the right tree, gas and hotel, box for collected tree, soil components, fertilizer and water for a number of years before working the tree, and the possibility that after all that the tree won't make it anyway.

I have an invite for a yamadori tour next spring. If I add all the costs, and divide it to the number of trees the permit will cover, the trees will have a minimum cost of 800 bucks. That is when all of them survive.

Naturally, going yamadori hunting is not only about getting great trees, but also about finding and spending a few days in the mountains with likeminded people. But certainly not the cheap one

 

[Attmos]

one million dollars! Is the correct answer.

 

[rockm]

Collecting is hardly free. Even if you have a suitable plot of land to look you’re still investing time and resources. If you don’t have land you have to put the time in to get permissions in line (if you don’t bother with that then you’re a problem for other collectors)

Collecting shouldn’t be about reducing costs anyway. It should be about finding and getting great trees successfully. It basically a hunting trip with a pry bar not a gun. Same ethics apply in getting your quarry—Get a permit, ask permission, dont take a shot unless you know you can hit the target with one shot. Eat what you kill.

98 percent of the trees you see you think might be worth collecting either aren’t collectible or not really worth the effort.

 

[TomP]

Having done one major collecting trip I would add you need to factor in the cost of tylenol, ice packs, and massage therapy

 

[rockm]

Having done one major collecting trip I would add you need to factor in the cost of tylenol, ice packs, and massage therapy

And invest in a cordless reciprocating saw and ten extra blades

 

[BrianBay9]

Having done one major collecting trip I would add you need to factor in the cost of tylenol, ice packs, and massage therapy

Add one urgent care visit here.