What is too much to pay for a tree?

[Wulfskaar]

cheap futureless material

Ok, I see. It's impossible to make a decent bonsai that I will like from seed or nursery stock. All my trees are a waste of time and effort, so I may as well just toss them in the bin. The only ones worth anything in your eyes will be ones I either dig up or buy from someone else.

Got it.

EDIT: You just got me a bit heated, so it's best to edit my last comment out.

 

[leatherback]

so I may as well just toss them in the bin

Just drop them here. I have an empty bin next to my bonsai stands. Might miss the bin though.

 

[rockm]

Ok, I see. It's impossible to make a decent bonsai that I will like from seed or nursery stock. All my trees are a waste of time and effort, so I may as well just toss them in the bin. The only ones worth anything in your eyes will be ones I either dig up or buy from someone else.

Got it.

EDIT: You just got me a bit heated, so it's best to edit my last comment out.

Oh for crying out loud

 

[Attmos]

Thats hilarious. You really don’t get it. I haven’t bought ready made bonsai. I have followed the exact path you and other DIY fanatics are. What I am saying til I am blue in the face is to stop being martyrs to cheap futureless material if you want something to come from your effort. I stopped going to landscape nurseries a very long time ago. Money spent there isn’t well spent. Period. You get vanilla trees with vanilla futures. I began collecting my own trees from the wild as well as broadening my bonsai world in real life through club contacts getting to know bonsai nursery owners who have great trees and long good reps.

I found out WHERE to look most effectively cost wise and quality wise.

I suppose it depends on your goals, as far as a hobby goes. So far I like a few suggestions for a few different goals....

But I think what I'm hearing is that the more experienced you become, the less interesting the first several years of tree development becomes. This is something I can understand. Once you've gone through the long process of seed/seedling to tree a few times, I can see it becoming more of an inconvenience than an actual part of the process.
I'm thinking that when us newbies have done it a few times, it's entirely possible that that part of the process may lose interest for us as well.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Ok, I see. It's impossible to make a decent bonsai that I will like from seed or nursery stock. All my trees are a waste of time and effort, so I may as well just toss them in the bin. The only ones worth anything in your eyes will be ones I either dig up or buy from someone else.

Got it.

EDIT: You just got me a bit heated, so it's best to edit my last comment out.

Take a step back and breath...

Who do you do bonsai for? I happen to do it for myself. Everyone is permitted their own opinion on how they do things.

You do you... I'll do me ... he will do him. The earth still revolves... end of the day. If what we do...brings us joy. That's enough.

 

[leatherback]

I'm hearing is that the more experienced you become, the less interesting the first several years of tree development becomes. This is something I can understand.

WHen I went to my first big bonsaishow exactly what @rock1993 said happened. I wanted to get rid of most of my trees.

 

[Attmos]

Take a step back and breath...

Who do you do bonsai for? I happen to do it for myself. Everyone is permitted their own opinion on how they do things.

You do you... I'll do me ... he will do him. The earth still revolves... end of the day. If what we do...brings us joy. That's enough.

Sometimes it does feel like you're being rejected simply because you're working with inferior stock. I mean, if the goal is just to enjoy the hobby, the process... working with inferior stock shouldn't make much difference because your goal is simply to have fun and do the best with what you have.
As I was saying to Rockm, it's possible and even likely that we'll get bored with taking the time to grow from seed/seedling to tree. I think the argument simply depends on the amount of time we've all, respectively, been involved in the hobby.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Sometimes it does feel like you're being rejected simply because you're working with inferior stock. I mean, if the goal is just to enjoy the hobby, the process... working with inferior stock shouldn't make much difference because your goal is simply to have fun and do the best with what you have.
As I was saying to Rockm, it's possible and even likely that we'll get bored with taking the time to grow from seed/seedling to tree. I think the argument simply depends on the amount of time we've all, respectively, been involved in the hobby.

I don't care to grow from seed...doesn't make me wrong. I don't judge those who find passion where they choose. I have no patience for it. Or the space to do so.

Inferior material ... I've had my fair share. I tend to be drawn to ugly. But I seen something there. I have been eaten alive early days, ones trying to fine tune my vision to a more...traditional sense of style. I believe it was meant with good intentions.

Early days... I even felt like I was hazed at times...like new college kids have to go through. Made me just more determined to stay on my off beaten path. I'm very...stubborn. Ha!

A very cheap Ebay purchase. I had made myself sick over thinking...someone would fight me at the end for it. No bids came in against me. I sat there shocked. I saw so much potential in it. I look at it now...and laugh at how concerned of losing it I was at the time. Eyes of the beholder...when you see the journey to take. If the journey fills a place in your soul...and you feel good about it. That's the end game right there.

I do feel...good intentions by ones who are happy with their own journey. Can be misunderstood by ones...as judgemental. But end of the day... do what brings ya joy.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I'll also add...I think we all have vulnerability...and possibly take it more personal than one intends for us to take it. We hone in on those vulnerabilities in a large amount of context was said. Not seeing all the content stated... I say that for myself that rang true especially early days. Then...ya know what. I missed it. I missed ones questioning my selections. As I come to love being misunderstood. But...ones know my work now. I am not really questioned. People just wait to see what I do with it.

 

[blackadam]

Well.. 5 years from seed to 11mm
when started actually didnt though about bonsai

you're being rejected simply because you're working with inferior stock

It looks rather like pointing in correct direction, if i could think earlier about bonsai i would have something more resembling a tree now
Start with decent material get better result in same or less time

goal is just to enjoy the hobby, the process

I did, now looking for something better to get results i will like more, seems i like growing plants
at least didnt waste money on mallsai that i would kill or bonsai starter kit from seed

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Joining the conversation late.

I understand where @rockm is coming from. IF I was totally rational about how I did bonsai I would pretty much follow his lead. But I enjoy the "nurseryman" aspect of the hobby, so I am often starting batches of seed, growing them out a few years, selecting a few to keep and moving on the rest.

I've been able to slow my roll of acquiring $20 stock, now I wait, shop around and maybe once every couple years drop a mortgage payment amount on a tree. I have a few $20 project trees coming up on 15 to 25 years old, a few are looking okay, but of the over 100 cheap trees I had 20 years ago, I've only kept about 25, and of them I'd say only 3 are worthy of bonsai pots. The rest still need years work.

Key is the cheap trees and seedling projects do eat up time that one should be spending on their better trees. I have a decent Satsuki from Rick Garcia, and it needs a full 10 hour day to wire and prune and otherwise work on. And the time required goes up as the tree approaches refinement. It is not that big a tree, but it takes time for all the fine wiring and such. So as your trees get better, they require more time, and there is less time for the "nursery stock".

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Another thought, rather than picking up nursery stock, if you have the itch to spend money on bonsai, BUY BONSAI POTS. For a while I was addicted to acquiring fine bonsai pottery. I have a fairly good collection of various older Japanese pots, and a fairly good sampling of American and European made pots. I probably have 5 pots for every tree I own. Now there are limits to how far is rational to go with collecting pots, but at least in my opinion, a tree and its pot should be roughly equal in value, or at least a third of the value.

A good tree should be in a similar quality pot. For higher end trees, their value climbs more rapidly than the pots, so at some point the tree will usually be worth some factor more than the pot. But a $1200 Satsuki should be in a pot that is likely in the $400 plus range. A $5000 pine should be in a serious pot, maybe in the $500 to $1000 range. Plastic tupperware containers for tree that has a decade of work into it, is simply not "balanced". For trees in training, obviously plastic and terra cotta pots are appropriate. But if you are going to show a tree, you really should think about the pots and invest a little time and money searching them out.

 

[The Barber]

Ok, I see. It's impossible to make a decent bonsai that I will like from seed or nursery stock. All my trees are a waste of time and effort, so I may as well just toss them in the bin. The only ones worth anything in your eyes will be ones I either dig up or buy from someone else.

Got it.

EDIT: You just got me a bit heated, so it's best to edit my last comment out.

You're the artist, pick whatever canvas you want my dude. Some of us like to buy a Picasso and alter it and some of us like a fresh canvas.

All of our trees were started from seed somewhere down the line, or a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone² which came from a seed.

Me personally, I live in a county of around 7200 people, 80% all of which is forest. So I figure that averages out to 400 or so trees per person, and none of them do bonsai, so that leaves something like 3 million trees for me to inspect for amazing bonsai compatibility, then decide if it has a high chance of survival and cram it into its new home (with permission of course).

Anyone physically able to get out and dig trees in the wild that never attempts it is missing out. It is honestly like playing the lotto for us bonsai folks. Finding an amazing tree in the woods or a fence row or wherever will always make you happy. As a bonus, if you dig invasives, you are doing nature a favor and eliminating competition.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Oh for crying out loud

My thoughts exactly.
As you must know from the dozens of times I have profusely thanked you for your commentary, I value your opinion greatly, maybe as much as anyone else's here. So when you imply that I'm silly, arrogant, and don't understand plain english, it admittedly hit a nerve.
Not sure if you meant to be a downer, but I get you're a "tough love" type of guy, so I'll just leave it at that. I sincerely hope to see you continue to critique my trees into the future. Having spent 6 years in the military, I am not afraid to get roasted or heavily critiqued. Bring it on (please).

@Cadillactaste Very wise and kind words. Thank you. I'm obviously being a bit of a snowflake right now. The good news is that my inner Ted Lasso is very strong, so these things never last long.

As I was saying to Rockm, it's possible and even likely that we'll get bored with taking the time to grow from seed/seedling to tree. I think the argument simply depends on the amount of time we've all, respectively, been involved in the hobby.

I'm about there. I do really enjoy the process of growing from seeds, so I'll probably keep doing a few each year. However, I no longer focus on that. I am already transitioning into wanting more experience with trees in various stages. Like you, the best I can do right now are seedlings, nursery stock, and digging up oak trees on my property.

@The Barber Thanks man. That's awesome. Yeah, you really love those massive trees and I love to see it!
I really need to make a weekend yamadori road trip. Unfortunately, where I live it's literally illegal to cut an oak tree over 2" thick, even on my own property, and "forests" are generally rare and protected. I'm bending the law just digging one up in my own yard! Oaks (coast live oak and valley oak) are the main tree around here, and they only grow in certain areas. My property butts up to a "wilderness preserve", which is mostly scrub brush. Digging up one of the few trees there is a no go. I do plan to take a couple oaks from my yard in January that I've been keeping an eye on. I'll definitely post it here if/when I do.

 

[rockm]

My thoughts exactly.
As you must know from the dozens of times I have profusely thanked you for your commentary, I value your opinion greatly, maybe as much as anyone else's here. So when you imply that I'm silly, arrogant, and don't understand plain english, it admittedly hit a nerve.
Not sure if you meant to be a downer, but I get you're a "tough love" type of guy, so I'll just leave it at that. I sincerely hope to see you continue to critique my trees into the future. Having spent 6 years in the military, I am not afraid to get roasted or heavily critiqued. Bring it on (please).

@Cadillactaste Very wise and kind words. Thank you. I'm obviously being a bit of a snowflake right now. The good news is that my inner Ted Lasso is very strong, so these things never last long.


I'm about there. I do really enjoy the process of growing from seeds, so I'll probably keep doing a few each year. However, I no longer focus on that. I am already transitioning into wanting more experience with trees in various stages. Like you, the best I can do right now are seedlings, nursery stock, and digging up oak trees on my property.

@The Barber Thanks man. That's awesome. Yeah, you really love those massive trees and I love to see it!
I really need to make a weekend yamadori road trip. Unfortunately, where I live it's literally illegal to cut an oak tree over 2" thick, even on my own property, and "forests" are generally rare and protected. I'm bending the law just digging one up in my own yard! Oaks (coast live oak and valley oak) are the main tree around here, and they only grow in certain areas. My property butts up to a "wilderness preserve", which is mostly scrub brush. Digging up one of the few trees there is a no go. I do plan to take a couple oaks from my yard in January that I've been keeping an eye on. I'll definitely post it here if/when I do.

I’m not roasting YOU. As I’ve said over and over I’m trying to impress on people to raise their heads a little iwith what they’re using in general. Better material isn’t reallly all that expensive. It’s just a bit harder to find but it’s worth seeking out.

There has always been a core of people in bonsai who take pride in how little they paid for something. It’s almost as bad as bragging about how much you overpaid for something. Not talking about you but about the Train of thought that if it costs more than $50 and the owner hasn’t slaved over it from the beginning then its somehow inauthentic and doesn’t reflect t he owner and not a lot of work. I used to think that but having worked on those starter trees and now on a growing number of old established trees it is readily apparent those older trees are actually MORE work and take MORE skill to work on. And just because you didn’t start the tree 50-300 years ago you stilll leave a mark on it with your work

Work what you want. I ain’t the bonsai police. Show me up in ten years with a stunner you built from a .99 starter from Home Depot.

FWIW I work at a military installation with retired and active duty servicemen and officers who bust balls all day long.

 

[JoeWilson]

I just want to make it absolutely clear that I am, in fact, very silly. I mean, not as silly as growing a little tree in a pot for 300 years. Definitely not as silly as arguing about how to grow tiny trees in pots. But silly nonetheless.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I’m not roasting YOU. As I’ve said over and over I’m trying to impress on people to raise their heads a little iwith what they’re using in general. Better material isn’t reallly all that expensive. It’s just a bit harder to find but it’s worth seeking out.

There has always been a core of people in bonsai who take pride in how little they paid for something. It’s almost as bad as bragging about how much you overpaid for something. Not talking about you but about the Train of thought that if it costs more than $50 and the owner hasn’t slaved over it from the beginning then its somehow inauthentic and doesn’t reflect t he owner and not a lot of work.

Work what you want. I ain’t the bonsai police. Show me up in ten years with a stunner you built from a .99 starter from Home Depot.

FWIW I work at a military installation with retired and active duty servicemen and officers who bust balls all day long.

I get it. Just continue to kick me in the right direction, whether I like it or not.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I just want to make it absolutely clear that I am, in fact, very silly. I mean, not as silly as growing a little tree in a pot for 300 years. Definitely not as silly as arguing about how to grow tiny trees in pots. But silly nonetheless.

 

[Attmos]

I don't care to grow from seed...doesn't make me wrong. I don't judge those who find passion where they choose. I have no patience for it. Or the space to do so.

Inferior material ... I've had my fair share. I tend to be drawn to ugly. But I seen something there. I have been eaten alive early days, ones trying to fine tune my vision to a more...traditional sense of style. I believe it was meant with good intentions.

Early days... I even felt like I was hazed at times...like new college kids have to go through. Made me just more determined to stay on my off beaten path. I'm very...stubborn. Ha!

A very cheap Ebay purchase. I had made myself sick over thinking...someone would fight me at the end for it. No bids came in against me. I sat there shocked. I saw so much potential in it. I look at it now...and laugh at how concerned of losing it I was at the time. Eyes of the beholder...when you see the journey to take. If the journey fills a place in your soul...and you feel good about it. That's the end game right there.

I do feel...good intentions by ones who are happy with their own journey. Can be misunderstood by ones...as judgemental. But end of the day... do what brings ya joy.
View attachment 611110View attachment 611111View attachment 611112View attachment 611113

I'm not judging you. My comment was far from judgemental. On the contrary I think I understand that after a while, growing from seed or seedling could eventually seem like a severe waste of time. I'm not criticizing at all.
I'm simply pointing out that others might be satisfied with less complete or notable trees for their effort, because the effort in and of itself is satisfying.

 

[Attmos]

View attachment 611114
Well.. 5 years from seed to 11mm
when started actually didnt though about bonsai

It looks rather like pointing in correct direction, if i could think earlier about bonsai i would have something more resembling a tree now
Start with decent material get better result in same or less time

I did, now looking for something better to get results i will like more, seems i like growing plants
at least didnt waste money on mallsai that i would kill or bonsai starter kit from seed

I totally get that. I assume that as I grow more competent, My desire for more advanced work will grow, and seedlings will become less satisfying.

I just think the people who are more advanced are a little tough on those still beginning sometimes.

Doesn't seem productive, unless you present more advanced material as a future for the hobby... as opposed to saying that small and collected trees are a waste of time.
Does this make sense or am I off on a weird tangent again?