What is too much to pay for a tree?

[TomP]

Remember that you are essentially paying for time. You can save money if you are willing to put in the time to grow the trunk, create taper, create movement, and develop roots. So if you are buying a 5 year old pre-bonsai is it worth 100 to 150 dollars to save 5 years of development (as well as benefit from someone else's expertise)
If you are buying a more developed bonsai then the value proposition is different as you are paying for not only time but a piece of art
My personal experience is that you can work yourself up the cost curve as you develop more expertise and are better able to care for the trees. It does you no good to buy a $500 tree that is destined for the trash pile, but if you can take care of it and it improves your collection you should spend whatever fits into your budget. You can spend as much or as little as you want and have a fulfilling experience.
I am at the stage in my bonsai life where I only buy things that improve my collection and I fund it by selling things that are the least good trees in the collection. One of these days perhaps it will be a self funding hobby but alas, I am still in the red

 

[rockm]

Remember that you are essentially paying for time. You can save money if you are willing to put in the time to grow the trunk, create taper, create movement, and develop roots. So if you are buying a 5 year old pre-bonsai is it worth 100 to 150 dollars to save 5 years of development (as well as benefit from someone else's expertise)
If you are buying a more developed bonsai then the value proposition is different as you are paying for not only time but a piece of art
My personal experience is that you can work yourself up the cost curve as you develop more expertise and are better able to care for the trees. It does you no good to buy a $500 tree that is destined for the trash pile, but if you can take care of it and it improves your collection you should spend whatever fits into your budget. You can spend as much or as little as you want and have a fulfilling experience.
I am at the stage in my bonsai life where I only buy things that improve my collection and I fund it by selling things that are the least good trees in the collection. One of these days perhaps it will be a self funding hobby but alas, I am still in the red

You will always be in the red. There is no way to get into the black even (or especially) if your collection is full of high value trees you have worked for decades (or even if you’re buying reallly expensive trees). Your RARELY get back what you paid for anything. The only thing that really appreciate and can be sold with any return are bonsai pots - high end bonsai pots. But you have to choose carefully

 

[shohin_branches]

One of these days perhaps it will be a self funding hobby but alas, I am still in the red

Lol I sell carnivorous plants to fund bonsai. Bonsai trees suck a lot of time and aren't a great investment. You forget to water one hot day and all your work is gone. Your fan gets bumped over winter and your $150 hemlock becomes a fancy piece of firewood.

If you add up all the initial price, plus "bring your own trees" workshops, wire, fertilizer, soil, tools, time then you really aren't ever getting out of the red.

 

[penumbra]

I am a potter. Not exclusively or even primarily of bonsai pots nor do I wish it were so. But I do very much admire those potters that devote themselves entirely, or even primarily to this pursuit. I also used to paint quite a bit and sell my art. I had a gallery for nine years where I displayed the works of others. The reason I bring this up is because I frequently had others ask me about pricing their ware or their artwork. My answer was brief and maybe even a bit rude. If you are counting your time, go into another occupation.
This is how I feel about bonsai.

 

[JoeWilson]

Have you looked at the hardware stores? In my area, I can find dwarf Austrian pine (Oregon Green), mugo, a few varieties of juniper, and Alberta spruce for $50 or less. It’s often not ideal bonsai material, but usually, there is enough stock that you can find one or two trees with an interesting trunk. Rarely are any of the deciduous trees interesting, but if you want inexpensive material that doesn’t have a twig-thin trunk so you can chop it back and start developing movement and taper, those can be a good option too. Maples, cherries, etc. This time of year, they tend to have discounts too.

If you don’t have any good local nurseries with inexpensive/young material and don’t mind buying a smaller plant, look on Etsy and other online nurseries that ship plants. I’ve got a handful of bristlecones that I’ve been growing in the ground for a few years, most of which I paid around $20 for.

I’m not sure what my upper limit is for buying trees. At the moment, I’m focused on developing my own, so I don’t think I’ve spent more than $70 on a tree, and a good deal of them are volunteers that I dug up on my property. It’s worth checking in your area to see if there are any public lands you can collect trees from. Sometimes, the city/county will be very happy for you to dig up invasive species, and you may be able to dig up saplings of other trees with a permit. You might find some neighbors who are more than happy for you to dig out an awkwardly placed tree or shrub in their yard as well. Check Facebook marketplace and local gardening groups on Reddit and stuff like that too, people post free or inexpensive material all the time here.

 

[JoeWilson]

I am a potter. Not exclusively or even primarily of bonsai pots nor do I wish it were so. But I do very much admire those potters that devote themselves entirely, or even primarily to this pursuit. I also used to paint quite a bit and sell my art. I had a gallery for nine years where I displayed the works of others. The reason I bring this up is because I frequently had others ask me about pricing their ware or their artwork. My answer was brief and maybe even a bit rude. If you are counting your time, go into another occupation.
This is how I feel about bonsai.

I can relate to that. I do woodworking, furniture, small decorative items, etc as a hobby. I've done commissioned pieces a few times, but the money never makes sense. The material cost, time, and effort that go into it are so high that I would never be competitive if I wanted to do it as a business. Mostly, I make stuff for fun and give it away to friends and family. I always joke that if I win the lottery, I can finally start a money-losing woodworking business.

I collect and restore vintage Japanese tools, too. I make enough money on eBay selling the stuff I don't need to cover the cost of what I keep. But if I counted my time spent removing rust, sharpening, etc, I would be in the red.

Bonsai is much the same; if we count the time spent developing trees, it will never be a money-positive adventure. Unless you're growing from seed or taking cuttings on an industrial scale or something like that.

 

[rockm]

You will spend about the same or more buying a decent $200 trees as you will on the dozen $20 trees you will go through to get a decent result. Cheap is cheap you get what you pay for. Fooling yourself into buying 15 bad candidates because they’re in the sale bin is not really a great way to get anywhere meaningful in bonsai. You won’t care if a $ 20 tree kicks it but if you’ve got $400 into one and it looks weird. You learn quicker WTF is going on and how to handle it.

Don’t ask me how I know this

 

[JoeWilson]

You will spend about the same or more buying a decent $200 trees as you will on the dozen $20 trees you will go through to get a decent result. Cheap is cheap you get what you pay for. Fooling yourself into buying 15 bad candidates because they’re in the sale bin is not really a great way to get anywhere meaningful in bonsai. You won’t care if a $ 20 tree kicks it but if you’ve got $400 into one and it looks weird. You learn quicker WTF is going on and how to handle it.

Don’t ask me how I know this

Sure, but at the same time, you understand why you would avoid cheap trees and what promising material looks like because you went through that process. It’s easy to say, buy a nice tree and be good at bonsai right away. Don’t buy bad material, don’t kill any trees, don’t make noob mistakes, and so forth. But everyone needs to make mistakes as part of the learning process, figure out how to keep trees alive in their climate, find out which trees they like to work with, and all of this stuff. Where you get working with cheap or non-ideal material is a better sense of what good or ideal material is, as well as what your limitations and skills are, and that experience has a lot of value.

Also, it’s not mutually exclusive; you can go and buy a nice, moderately expensive pre-bonsai to start with and baby it. But also pick up some discount bin finds and dig up weed trees to mess around with. This can be a great way to hedge off the inclination to overwork or get ahead of yourself with the trees you care about. Something that stuck with me (I think someone wrote it on this forum a while back), was “You want to style your tree now? Go buy more trees instead.” (badly paraphrased, I'm sure)

 

[rockm]

But at the same time, you understand why you would avoid cheap trees and what promising material looks like because you went through that process. It’s easy to say, buy a nice tree and be good at bonsai right away. Don’t buy bad material, don’t kill any trees, don’t make noob mistakes, and so forth. But everyone needs to make mistakes as part of the learning process, figure out how to keep trees alive in their climate, find out which trees they like to work with, and all of this stuff. Where you get working with cheap or non-ideal material is a better sense of what good or ideal material is, and that experience has a lot of value.

Also, it’s not mutually exclusive; you can go and buy a nice, moderately expensive pre-bonsai to start with and baby it. But also pick up some discount bin finds and dig up weed trees to mess around with. This can be a great way to hedge off the inclination to overwork or get ahead of yourself with the trees you care about. Something that stuck with me (I think someone wrote it on this forum a while back), was “You want to style your tree now? Go buy more trees instead.” (badly paraphrased, I'm sure)

What I’m saying is stretch yourself. Don’t keep settling for junk. You will do bonsai for a couple of years and realize what you mostly have is junk. Happens to everyone who does this for more than a few years. Five years or seven years in most bonsaists purge almost everything in favor of better and more expensive.

Buy better annd what you’re comfortable with (but comfortable doesn’t teach much) And yes you will still make mistakes there’s no other way to learn. more advanced material can teach you more than the three or four steps adapting another nursery tree to yet another temporary plastic pot

Sure you can still do that but invest in something more advanced that can teach you how to refine a nebari, wire out an actual apex. Work on a root mass that is a pad not stringy individual roots. Choose branches to maximize ramification Etc

Never be satisfied with nursery stuff and seedlings/saplings. No one is stopping you from those or whatever. But keep in mind The interesting parts of bonsai don’t happen until you’re ten years in with experience. If you’re stuck on repeating the same beginner stuff for decades by all means keep buying from the sales bin or Home Depot or Kmart.

 

[MalsRFun in TN]

This conversation goes on in every hobby you do, no matter how common or strange. I've had plenty of expensive hobbies, including showing dressage horses where the highest echelons are populated by the wives and daughters of rock stars and tech bros. Years ago I sat in a tent ringside with some of the ultra rich in Palm Beach watching the Olympic qualifying dressage, which was eye opening for someone who dreamed of just watching the Olympics in person.

Besides asking what you can afford, you ought to ask yourself what your real goals are. Money is a small part of any hobby if you don't have the time and commitment to develop your tree or horse or whatever to a high competitive goal, unless you can pay someone else to do it for you. If you're just looking for your own satisfaction to show off here, that is entirely different. Of course, there are many levels in between. So the OP's question has a lot of valid answers.

I'm always surprised by how few times anyone here talks about goals before offering opinions.

 

[Attmos]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I just picked up an Iseli cultivar Bosnian pine from a quality landscape nursery. The tree was normally $250, but it has an interesting (to me) bend in the trunk, and the trunk was covered with lichen. Super healthy - but the nurseryman said it looked like a "Charlie Brown Christmas Tree" to his customers - so he put it in his summer sale assortment. After he spoke with me about it a while, he said "for you - I'll do $75... less 50%". So $37.50 for a tree that should have sold for $250

 

[leatherback]

200 is not too much on good bonsai material. Whether it is too much money for YOU is something only you can answer.
I went through the first.. nearly 10 years not paying more than 100 for a trunk, and got the bigger pieces by watching the sales adds were people were clearing yards and telling friend I would come help dig if they ever needed to get rid of old plants.

Now I still like the hunt, but also like to have material that I can work directly. Then again.. I get some money from workshops, so I am actually pretty much on a financially positive place with Bonsai. So buying more expensive trees happens more easily. I do find that under 100-200 buck most trees are overpriced.

 

[penumbra]

Then again.. I get some money from workshops, so I am actually pretty much on a financially positive place with Bonsai

No question, selling as service is generally more positive than selling merchandise.

 

[blackadam]

Could you guys post some example pictures, price range and time need -how old is starting tree and how long it takes to make decent bonsai?
Some advice what to look for in given price range, ie 0-10 $, 10-50$ 100-200$ etc..

 

[Cadillactaste]

Could you guys post some example pictures, price range and time need -how old is starting tree and how long it takes to make decent bonsai?
Some advice what to look for in given price range, ie 0-10 $, 10-50$ 100-200$ etc..

So many variables...Take two tridents.

One a shohin semi cascade. $320 plus shipping. (Recent buy this year so was able to pull up sales ticket.) With my changing the angle and pot...

Now a neagari trident maple $400 plus shipping. A much larger tree. growing a drop branch on this one.

 

[Ozz80]

Could you guys post some example pictures, price range and time need -how old is starting tree and how long it takes to make decent bonsai?
Some advice what to look for in given price range, ie 0-10 $, 10-50$ 100-200$ etc..

I guess this is not easy, since it depends on the tree species and how easily that species can be found in your region. For example, here you can get a thick-trunked wild olive for under 200 USD, whereas a deshojo with the same girth will cost much more.

 

[Attmos]

Rule of thumb I learned way back at the beginning

Find a reliable knowledgeable nursery or seller. Buy the best YOU CAN AFFORD. It pays to stretch a bit particularly with deciduous material. They are more forgiving or beginner mistakes.

Although sale bins offer steep discounts they are also a sump for sick and dying trees. As well as some healthy trees that just look bad (Japanese maples particularly thread and laceleaf varieties) tend to look burned up and crispy from the summer heat. They’re usually fine next spring unless they’re not

$200 is relative. It’s not too much for a decent trunk and nebari (dig down at least two inches into the soil around the trunk to look for primary surface roots. Some trees that have been constantly up potted have multi layer primary roots

If you have a decent bonsai nursery (not a store front or seller with mass produced junipers/ Chinese elm. Look to it to get a better result since the stock there has probably been initially worked as bonsai

Also don’t get stuck on height and original branching. Both are mostly sacrificed anyway for deciduous material. You want the bottom third of the tree. The rest is negotiable.

I’ve heard good things about this place in Chardon ohio

WildWood Gardens

Chardon Ohio Local Bonsai Master Shop

www.wildwoodgardens.com

Thanks, and thanks for the link.

 

[Ozz80]

This, for example, is on sale for around 170 USD and my wallet is itching to be emptied. Should I buy?

 

[Attmos]

Remember that you are essentially paying for time. You can save money if you are willing to put in the time to grow the trunk, create taper, create movement, and develop roots. So if you are buying a 5 year old pre-bonsai is it worth 100 to 150 dollars to save 5 years of development (as well as benefit from someone else's expertise)
If you are buying a more developed bonsai then the value proposition is different as you are paying for not only time but a piece of art
My personal experience is that you can work yourself up the cost curve as you develop more expertise and are better able to care for the trees. It does you no good to buy a $500 tree that is destined for the trash pile, but if you can take care of it and it improves your collection you should spend whatever fits into your budget. You can spend as much or as little as you want and have a fulfilling experience.
I am at the stage in my bonsai life where I only buy things that improve my collection and I fund it by selling things that are the least good trees in the collection. One of these days perhaps it will be a self funding hobby but alas, I am still in the red

I'm gonna agree with the rest by saying that... I don't ever expect to make any money in this hobby, I look at hobbies as a self-indulgence.
So, like owning a boat, it's always going to be a hole in the water in which I throw my money... never to be seen again... lol

I'm doing what I can at the moment but I have other issues I need to take care of before spending any money on my hobby. This makes talking about collecting from the wild, buying cheap and making the best of what you can find, growing from seed... all very important information to learn.

Anyway... I understand the desire to start from good stock... you'll most likely end up with a work of art. Maybe someday, when I'm confident I could give it the attention it deserves. Right now I'm just not really confident enough to put all my eggs in one proverbial basket.

I suppose 'experience' should come first, if that makes sense.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I guess this is not easy, since it depends on the tree species and how easily that species can be found in your region. For example, here you can get a thick-trunked wild olive for under 200 USD, whereas a deshojo with the same girth will cost much more.

Good reply. I had someone arrive at my door and cut my post short.