bonsai-max
Shohin
Grafting always scary me, there is a good tutorial around ? Never tried with pines btw....
Help for Black Pine backbudding
- Thread starter bonsai-max
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markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
I’ve a thread on the topic. Perhaps it will help you. It’s only scary the first few times you do it. After a while it becomes routine, really. Learning the technique will significantly expand your vision of what can be accomplished.
Grafting 101
In another thread I was asked to talk about grafting techniques. I'll share what I know, but I don't claim to be a grafting expert. I've done it a fair amount and with increasing regularity as part of developing trees. In fact with trees like pines, you often have no other choice BUT to graft...
bonsai-max
Shohin
Very interesting, I will try next months, I have a black pine in the garden that can be a good donor, this tree I was thinking a scott pine but at the end is a ABP
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/another-complicate-scott-pine.60703/
What is the best moment of the year feb/mar?
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markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
In early spring, before the buds begin to extend. In Houston I did it in January. In Virginia, last year, I did it in March.
S
bonsai-max
Shohin
A small update.
This year I tried the schedule suggested here.
So iI didn't do any energy balance, I waited until mid July and cut all the new grows leaving from 12 to 16 couple of needles depending fron the candle strength, in the meantime once a week 20-20-20 mineral plus Humid acid.
Here is the situation.
Some double flush and some backbudding.
This year I tried the schedule suggested here.
So iI didn't do any energy balance, I waited until mid July and cut all the new grows leaving from 12 to 16 couple of needles depending fron the candle strength, in the meantime once a week 20-20-20 mineral plus Humid acid.
Here is the situation.
Some double flush and some backbudding.
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
A very promising start!
The more buds, the more strength the tree will have. Likely more buds will show by the end of next month. Please be sure the tree is in full sun during this time..
Would also consider adding cold pressed kelp. So humic acid:kelp at a 5:1 ratio. It’s very effective. Please only use liquid kelp product if the humic acid is liquid… and dry if dry.
If one is trying to develop strength in the tree to backbud more, might suggest only needle pruning the bottom of the branches, if at all for a year or two, as long as the needles aren’t shading buds. Leaving the needles on will build strength. After the tree gets really stronger, with more buds, then would return to removing needles.
Might want to check out this progression, which illustrates this technique over time.
Finally thinking the candles were removed late, especially for your latitude and USDA Plant Hardiness zone of 8A. Next year would suggest cutting the candles earlier in the year. We do this procedure around the end of May and have almost same latitude and atitude.
Cheers
DSD sends
bonsai-max
Shohin
The tree take full sun from 9 to 18
Ok I have liquid one
But the base of the needle is not the place of the new bud ? I mean I know that if you don't remove the needle the bud doesn't exit exept for the mugo that working opposite
Ok will do it, thank you sir.
D
Deleted member 47471
Guest
very nice pine!
I have heard for pine more foliage
more back budding
I have heard for pine more foliage
more back budding
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
It’s the candle cutting will cause the branch to create a second flush and can cause backbudding It’s the strength of the tree that will foster backbudding.
(One can even cut inside the older needles if desired… but that’s an advanced technique for vigorous trees, especially younger ones. )
Likely there are already needle buds back in the foliage besides those shown. If these are found in fall one can leave a few needles nearby and pull out enough for the needle buds to get more sun.
Granted there are other variations on this technique, but imho this is the fastest way to get a tree to develop.
Cheers
DSD sends
bonsai-max
Shohin
OMG for my whole life I thinked that on the black pines the new buds emerge only if you take out the old needle.
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Removing needles mostly for decreasing shading and isolating the energy to key growing areas.
Taking needles out reduces the percentage of needles available to develop into buds.
Best
DSD sends
Taking needles out reduces the percentage of needles available to develop into buds.
Best
DSD sends
bonsai-max
Shohin
So it's exactly the opposite
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Not exactly. There is always nuance in nature, rarely absolutes.
When a practitioner pulls out a bunch of needles energy does shift to the growing areas. (Note: Ignoring lots of hormonal explanation here… this simplify)
However if a tree is stressed enough by all the pulling (mostly) or viable enough (rarely) while the balance of energy is shifted to other areas in the tree, along the way the tree triggers what is known as epicormic buds. Simply buds on bare wood. (Slimplified).
Yet this (picnic budding) is not a reliable phenomena. Of course it does happen often, but buds from needle buds are way more numerous.
In fact one of our Mugos, will backbudding on old wood reliably. The others… not so much. Tough when one is first learning a type of tree eh?
Also of note, candle cutting every year is not good for the tree in the long run. Sometimes it’s better to just give the tree a year off… similar to wise azalea hobbyists who give their trees a year off from blooming every three years.
For example, the JBP in the thread I recommended to you is getting a year off right now.
Hope this helps you!
Cheers
DSD sends
When a practitioner pulls out a bunch of needles energy does shift to the growing areas. (Note: Ignoring lots of hormonal explanation here… this simplify)
However if a tree is stressed enough by all the pulling (mostly) or viable enough (rarely) while the balance of energy is shifted to other areas in the tree, along the way the tree triggers what is known as epicormic buds. Simply buds on bare wood. (Slimplified).
Yet this (picnic budding) is not a reliable phenomena. Of course it does happen often, but buds from needle buds are way more numerous.
In fact one of our Mugos, will backbudding on old wood reliably. The others… not so much. Tough when one is first learning a type of tree eh?
Also of note, candle cutting every year is not good for the tree in the long run. Sometimes it’s better to just give the tree a year off… similar to wise azalea hobbyists who give their trees a year off from blooming every three years.
For example, the JBP in the thread I recommended to you is getting a year off right now.
Hope this helps you!
Cheers
DSD sends
bonsai-max
Shohin
Ok, is the same for the Mugos ?
Glaucus
Omono
The Telperion method was to not remove auxin production by pruning the tips, but by suddenly reducing sugar production by removing needle mass and keeping intact at least 1 of the tips so they do keep producing auxin.
Sot that means pruning back whirls to 1 shoot, and plucking all needles including some of this year's needles. Of course this assumed the tree would already have produced plenty of sugars before removing their capacity to do so now.
Usually this was on their long sacrificial leaders that had two intact whirls on them, together with 1 or 2 nodes where all past whirls were pruned off already, leading to that long strong bald sacrificial leader that no longer shaded the rest of the tree.
Then that pruning and lack of shade on the parts where you want backbudding supposedly gave backbudding all over the tree on old wood.
Otherwise, pruning usually leads to backbudding near the pruning site. With the easy backbudding to get those on last years needles. Where they would push out from in between a needle pair.
So you'd cut back into last years wood about this time of the year, after not having touched any of the candles on this year.
Sot that means pruning back whirls to 1 shoot, and plucking all needles including some of this year's needles. Of course this assumed the tree would already have produced plenty of sugars before removing their capacity to do so now.
Usually this was on their long sacrificial leaders that had two intact whirls on them, together with 1 or 2 nodes where all past whirls were pruned off already, leading to that long strong bald sacrificial leader that no longer shaded the rest of the tree.
Then that pruning and lack of shade on the parts where you want backbudding supposedly gave backbudding all over the tree on old wood.
Otherwise, pruning usually leads to backbudding near the pruning site. With the easy backbudding to get those on last years needles. Where they would push out from in between a needle pair.
So you'd cut back into last years wood about this time of the year, after not having touched any of the candles on this year.
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
In general, all trees have epicormic buds. Yet not all reliably backbud. Best response comes from healthy and robust trees.
btw In another thread I described the Kimura single flush procedure for pines to you. This will definitely work for Mugo pine.
If you are interested in Mugo… There is, however, another method developed by a Bonsai Nut member, Vance Wood, who recently passed on.
His posts on Mugo development were collected and made into a resource here:
Resource icon
In addition there is a contest going on using his methods. One can search for Vance Wood and view the participants entries and work.
bonsai-max
Shohin
The winter is coming, very slow, so I will wait to remove the extra buds, here is still too hot 18 c° in the morning but thanks to all of you this year I have sone nice extra buds and also Backbudding
What do you think ?
What do you think ?
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Much better! Well done.
Best
DSD sends
Best
DSD sends
