Black Pine Help

[Noo Noo]

Hi All

First post on here. As some background, I'm sort of new to bonsai but have been cultivating trees with the idea of turning them into bonsai for several years. Basically I've got a mix of seedlings and mature trees in pots but none I would class as real bonsai, yet.

I do have one quite mature black pine that's in a bit of a sorry state but also quite a tough beast all the same, it's survived dog attacks and all. Unfortunately, it's a very spindly tree and lacking in needles. The branches are very long and very thin. Root growth isn't that prolific. I have in the past been trying to force it to back bud but realise now that the tree simply isn't strong enough to do this. So I want to give it every chance to recover and some years down the line have another look at it. It has a very small amount of buds at the moment that are currently swelling. They haven't opened.

Is an emergency repot a decent idea? Spring is in full swing here now, even the oaks have young leaves. What soil is recommended and also any other tips to give the tree a chance?

Thanks, I'l see if I can get a picture or two as well.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Why would you emergency repot it?
Is there an emergency?

If there is no emergency, consider leaving it as is to gain strength.

 

[Noo Noo]

No problem, other than its condition has not really improved over the last 2.5 years. Happy to leave it until next year if that's the better option.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

You might want to describe the growing conditions and add a photo or two plus your location. If you have room you might comsider ground growing it for a few years to get stronger and bulk up. Hard to say without more info from you.

 

[BrightsideB]

I had a tree that took 4 years to recover. Make sure to fertilize.

 

[BrightsideB]

You might want to describe the growing conditions and add a photo or two plus your location. If you have room you might comsider ground growing it for a few years to get stronger and bulk up. Hard to say without more info from you.

That saved a few of mine from when I started I messed with my trees too much and almost lost a chamaecyparis obtuse that I really liked. I think putting it in the ground saved it my soil was drying out to quick. It’s still in the ground three years later and is now recovered.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

No problem, other than its condition has not really improved over the last 2.5 years. Happy to leave it until next year if that's the better option.

The best option is always in hindsight unfortunately.
But if it hasn't gone weaker over time, that means it's in a good soil. You might want to look into your watering habits; I'm a chronic overwaterer and my plants don't like it.
Fertilizer is good, a light application never did any harm.

Before doing anything drastic like repotting, it might be wise to get to the root of your concern. See what you can improve without touching those roots. That might give it a boost so you can repot it in fall or next spring. But pictures and a location would sure help us help you.

 

[River's Edge]

Hi All

First post on here. As some background, I'm sort of new to bonsai but have been cultivating trees with the idea of turning them into bonsai for several years. Basically I've got a mix of seedlings and mature trees in pots but none I would class as real bonsai, yet.

I do have one quite mature black pine that's in a bit of a sorry state but also quite a tough beast all the same, it's survived dog attacks and all. Unfortunately, it's a very spindly tree and lacking in needles. The branches are very long and very thin. Root growth isn't that prolific. I have in the past been trying to force it to back bud but realise now that the tree simply isn't strong enough to do this. So I want to give it every chance to recover and some years down the line have another look at it. It has a very small amount of buds at the moment that are currently swelling. They haven't opened.

Is an emergency repot a decent idea? Spring is in full swing here now, even the oaks have young leaves. What soil is recommended and also any other tips to give the tree a chance?

Thanks, I'l see if I can get a picture or two as well.

No indication of your location or climate other than spring under way! Yes it would be most helpful to have a picture of the tree to help assess condition. Also, some information on the soil it is in and comments on how well it drains when watered.
Otherwise well intended comments can prove to be harmful.

 

[Noo Noo]

Cheers All

I'm in the UK, North Wales to be precise and our seasons tend to be a about a month behind parts of Southern England for example. It can get pretty wet here (one of the wettest places in the UK) but it has suffered from drying out in Summer going way back. Our climate is noticeably changing though. Winters are wetter and more stormy and the Summers dryer. I'm far more regimental with my watering nowadays, taking cognisance of what the weather is doing. It has been fed this spring and will get another "dose" in the next few days. I try to feed once a month over the Spring / Summer. Ground planting is an option, I have some land out the back which is very mossy, and a bit wild. Soil is probably quite peaty. Happy to do that whenever is best for the tree. I certainly dont want to force things with it.

It's in a basic garden compost mix pretty much similar to the stuff that it originally came in when I bought it as a seedling many moons ago. It drains quite well but takes a really good spell of dry weather to fully dry out.

Here's a rough and ready and embarrassing pic. I can get more without issue. I'll remove the wire shortly (that was from over a year ago now).

 

[sorce]

It's an emergency!

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[Paradox]

It looks like you have it in potting soil. Its possible that kind of soil is staying way too wet for a pine and cause root issues
Right now Id be very careful of watering and I would feed this tree.
It is not just weak, its VERY weak and would not take much to send it over the edge

I'm not sure if gently slipping it into a larger pot or the ground would save it or kill it at this point.

 

[Noo Noo]

I'm not sure if gently slipping it into a larger pot or the ground would save it or kill it at this point.

Cheers.

One option could be to drop it into a larger pot without disturbing the soil / root ball at all. Then surround it with a proper draining media.

Scrambling for any suggestions to be honest.

 

[Shibui]

The tree is definitely weak and has multiple problems.
The usual answer is never repot a weak tree and that's fine if the problem is nutrition or light but if the soil is the problem then not repotting will kill the tree anyway.
Without examining the roots in person it is hard to be sure but from here it looks like soil is the problem and chances are it will die if left as is.
Choices are:
Leave it in the pot, poke some holes to help air circulation, adjust watering, fertilize and hope. Still a good chance it won't make it.
Repot now - it's still a good time to repot pines in your area - remove most of the offending soil, remove any dead and damaged roots, repot into a modern, open bonsai type soil and hope. Chances are still slim for survival.
Slip potting without disturbing the existing soil as just suggested is NOT a good idea. Water and roots do not move well between different media so old soil still stays wet inside new wet media or dries out when water runs down the better drained outer soil.

We can work on rehabilitation of the branching and growth if/when it starts to grow and gets healthy enough.

 

[TomB]

Is it a Japanese or European (Austrian) black pine?

Don’t put in a larger pot, that will make things worse.

The roots are probably in a bad state. The compost you have it in is probably staying too wet.

Perhaps the best option is to repot in August. Do a ‘half bare root’ (search for that on here), into a substrate with lots of pumice in it. A shallower pot will work better too.

EDIT: Shibui and I just suggested different timing for repotting. You will probably get a better response in August BUT it could also be done now. Choice might be dictated by whether you think the tree is stable, or going downhill.

 

[Paradox]

Cheers.

One option could be to drop it into a larger pot without disturbing the soil / root ball at all. Then surround it with a proper draining media.

Scrambling for any suggestions to be honest.

We need to tease out the conditions it has been under if we can.
How often was it watered in that soil?

 

[Noo Noo]

Is it a Japanese or European (Austrian) black pine?

Don’t put in a larger pot, that will make things worse.

The roots are probably in a bad state. The compost you have it in is probably staying too wet.

Perhaps the best option is to repot in August. Do a ‘half bare root’ (search for that on here), into a substrate with lots of pumice in it. A shallower pot will work better too.

EDIT: Shibui and I just suggested different timing for repotting. You will probably get a better response in August BUT it could also be done now. Choice might be dictated by whether you think the tree is stable, or going downhill.

Japanese from memory.

Bit nervous about a repot right now to be honest. Trying to figure out a way of improving the drainage without disturbing it.

 

[Paradox]

The tree is definitely weak and has multiple problems.
The usual answer is never repot a weak tree and that's fine if the problem is nutrition or light but if the soil is the problem then not repotting will kill the tree anyway.
Without examining the roots in person it is hard to be sure but from here it looks like soil is the problem and chances are it will die if left as is.
Choices are:
Leave it in the pot, poke some holes to help air circulation, adjust watering, fertilize and hope. Still a good chance it won't make it.
Repot now - it's still a good time to repot pines in your area - remove most of the offending soil, remove any dead and damaged roots, repot into a modern, open bonsai type soil and hope. Chances are still slim for survival.
Slip potting without disturbing the existing soil as just suggested is NOT a good idea. Water and roots do not move well between different media so old soil still stays wet inside new wet media or dries out when water runs down the better drained outer soil.

We can work on rehabilitation of the branching and growth if/when it starts to grow and gets healthy enough.

Yea this is the thoughts I had when I mentioned slip potting and I wasnt suggesting it be done honestly for the reasons you state.
The differences between the soil being an impediment to water movement.
However as weak as it is, repotting and disturbing the roots could kill it.
Leaving it as it is could kill it.

No real good solution.
If I had this tree and I thought the soil was the problem, I probably would try a repot with a change of soil and hope for the best

 

[Noo Noo]

We need to tease out the conditions it has been under if we can.
How often was it watered in that soil?

Depends on the weather to be honest. I last watered it about 2, possibly 3 weeks ago but it has p***ed it down in the interim.

 

[Paradox]

Depends on the weather to be honest. I last watered it about 2, possibly 3 weeks ago but t has p***ed it down in the interim.

Two - three weeks is too short of a time frame for the condition that the tree is in now.
Whatever caused it has been happening over a longer time frame

Do you have a sense for how wet the soil has been on average?

I suppose it matters little now since it is what it is except to understand and learn from it

 

[Noo Noo]

Two - three weeks is too short of a time frame for the condition that the tree is in now.
Whatever caused it has been happening in a longer time frame

Understood. I agree that it's been a long term issue. I've just not known / understood. I'll have to see what I have in the way of pots and more importantly suitable soil.

I've heard of a trick in wrapping the roots in sphagnum moss. Is that worth looking at? It seems to work well for me if I take a wild tree (yamadori)