Learning from a Waste of Time.

[Anonymous User]

Whoa big guy, I'd like to pick your mind on a few more of the changes you made....

You know that as material I'm not a huge fan of this particular tree. However I am interested in what makes your brain tick in making design choices for this tree. Which is the crux of this thread if I understand the theme.....what would you do with this tree

Lol, no, it was what would YOU do with this tree....

I'd like to know why you decided to rotate the tree in your virtual. The branch being the main character in this composition is now hidden, I appreciate minimalistic, but this seems to bring a whole new meaning to it....

So why bring that branch back out of sight...how is that enhancing the image?

Minimalistic is a great term for this tree, and a design decision that was basically forced upon me, not having another real option.

The image presented lends the most visual balance to the tree as it is now. From the sides, the living branch, unless bent straight down or up creates an imbalance that can only be filled with negative space, being nothing else. This could work, but the direction of the jins on this tree could not tell the same story as such a directional change the branch would. Perhaps a future change could be made by having the living branch form a new upright apex, hence making some sense out of the direction of the jins, but at this time, the branch does not have the length or ramification to pull it off.

This and the fact that the trunk appears to have better taper at this view, caused me to consider this alternative, which reminds me of trees I have seen in the marshes of Michigan.

I'll post some other views later to further explain my decision.




Will

 

[Anonymous User]

Of course, I could just flip the whole tree around and show the branch in front of the trunk instead of behind it....giving more movement to the trunk, but losing the illusion of taper that seems to be present with the other view. I could and most likely will do some carving on the trunk to show more taper and to accent areas, but that can be accomplished in the future, if I wish.


Attachments are branch slightly off the front and branch in the back of the trunk.

 

[rockm]

I wonder if the "design solution" here is going to kill what's left of the tree...I re-read this thread (pretty quickly and not thoroughly ) and saw only one reference to preserving the tree's health and it was question that apparently wasn't answered by the designer.

Pruning back existing weak growth on what looks to be a questionable root system (moss on the root base, darkened wood at the trunk are tell tale signs of deeper issues) wiring the remaining growth and putting the thing on a slab might be a really nice way to learn about design, but it might also teach you that "minimalist" bonsai can wind up to be "deadsai."

All of the things that have been proposed for this tree place and inordinate amount of pressure on the plant's health--which is the keystone of bonsai. Understanding fundamentals is bonsai 101.

 

[Anonymous User]

Rockm,

The tree will not be wired, re-potted, or worked further until at the very least, next year. The tree is very healthy actually, the photo is poor, not showing the green of the moss or of the foliage. preserving the health wasn't mentioned simply because, as you said, this is just bonsai 101 and shouldn't need to be addressed.

What was done to this tree between the first and last picture was about 5% of the foliage removed to stop shading and one single guy wire applied.


Will

 

[rockm]

"wasn't mentioned simply because, as you said, this is just bonsai 101 and shouldn't need to be addressed."

With a tree that looks like this, it should be addressed from the beginning. There is a reason the tree is mostly dead. Someone reading this online cannot see if those issues have been solved. The health of the tree is extremely pertinent in working with such spartan stock, as something that looks like this usually looks that way for a reason.

Someone with a similar looking tree, but with deeper health problems, might assume such drastic treatment is OK. It's not. It's a tall order even if the tree is perfectly healthy.

 

[Anonymous User]

"wasn't mentioned simply because, as you said, this is just bonsai 101 and shouldn't need to be addressed."

With a tree that looks like this, it should be addressed from the beginning. There is a reason the tree is mostly dead. Someone reading this online cannot see if those issues have been solved. The health of the tree is extremely pertinent in working with such spartan stock, as something that looks like this usually looks that way for a reason.

Someone with a similar looking tree, but with deeper health problems, might assume such drastic treatment is OK. It's not. It's a tall order even if the tree is perfectly healthy.

Knowing the tree has been happy and growing with only one branch for a couple years was the reason I decided to do something with it. Anyone who assumes you can style (if that is what adding a single guy wire is called) a tree that is in poor health is sadly mistaken.

What "drastic treatment" exactly were you referring to? The addition of a single guy wire or the removal of 5% of the foliage to allow light into the newly ramified branching?

The picture I posted earlier in this thread (and again below) shows not only healthy foliage, but budding as well.

There is no doubt the moss needs to be removed, but more so for aesthetic reasons than for health reasons, as the lush moss does not mimic the environmental nuance of the tree. As far as the dark trunk, rest assured it is a combination of recent watering, moss, and poor photography.

I am also worried about your usage of the term "mostly dead" as if this is a forbidden or bad image to portray. The image of mostly dead is actually a great image to use in bonsai and such images are often the most stunning in nature. see http://www.panoramio.com/photos/original/22716284.jpg or http://www.fs.fed.us/r1-r4/spf/fhp/whitebark_pine/images/WhitebarkPineBook_2_img_3.jpg or http://qualityjunkyard.com/wp-conte...ent-trees-in-the-world-bristlecone-pine-9.jpg as examples. This image of a tree that is mostly dead, but survived is so appealing that bonsaists go to great lengths to duplicate it, often half killing a healthy tree to achieve the illusion. So what is the difference between injuring and destroying a healthy tree to achieve this, or using a tree that went through it and survived for the image?

Now, that we have verified the health of the tree, what would you do design wise?

 

[rockm]

Jeez Will,

There are some things you seem to be trying to skirt here, either through inexperience or expediency.

For instance, planting on a slab requires an extremely shallow root mass which, if this tree as is "healthy" as you say will require substantial reduction to accomplish.

Moss on the root base, along with darkening wood on the trunk in the root zone are both indications that there is a drainage problem, and probably a rot problem under the soil. I'd be interested to see how much root mass you have to work with.

Additionally, removing five percent of this tree's foliage might have more of an impact on it than on a more lush specimen.

Apparently the guy wire is only the latest action taken to force movement into that branch. The sinuous downward path it takes suggests it's been wired aggressively in the more recent past?

Also, "budding" doesn't necessarily indicate "healthy tree." The budding shown in the photos doesn't really look all that robust--to me at least...

Maybe I'm wrong on all these points, but the photos show me a tree that might have some "issues" that need addressing now, before a final design is imposed on it.

 

[mcpesq817]

Rockm,

The tree is very healthy actually, the photo is poor, not showing the green of the moss or of the foliage. preserving the health wasn't mentioned simply because, as you said, this is just bonsai 101 and shouldn't need to be addressed.

The tree looks very healthy? Growing for two years with only an inch or two of foliage to show for it?

 

[Anonymous User]

Jeez Will,

There are some things you seem to be trying to skirt here, either through inexperience or expediency.

More so through common sense, I can't help but to think you are nit picking here over things that are blantantly obvious, but I'll play.

For instance, planting on a slab requires an extremely shallow root mass which, if this tree as is "healthy" as you say will require substantial reduction to accomplish.

The slab, as clearly explained, is just one pot option I am considering when it is time to repot this tree, which may not be for a year or more. I certainly have no plans to rush out and repot this, being late October here in Michigan.

Moss on the root base, along with darkening wood on the trunk in the root zone are both indications that there is a drainage problem, and probably a rot problem under the soil. I'd be interested to see how much root mass you have to work with.

Here in Michigan we get moss on catus, lol. Take a look at the picture again, the tree sits in 1 1/2 inch of soil...and if you look closely you will see it is in a very course soil mix 1/3 turface, 1/3 lava rock, 1/3 un-composted fir bark, all about 1/8 in diameter...if anything it drains a little too good and I'll most likely need to bump up the organics at the next repot, depending on the container. There are roots poking out of the drainge holes, so at this point, I am not worried about rootage or drainage at all.

Additionally, removing five percent of this tree's foliage might have more of an impact on it than on a more lush specimen.

Highly unlikely, but there is always that possibility with any tree. However, you assumptions are based on what you see in a poor picture, in the image I attached in my last post, you can clearly see budding, signs of active growth, it'll be fine. And yes, budding is always a good sign.

Apparently the guy wire is only the latest action taken to force movement into that branch. The sinuous downward path it takes suggests it's been wired aggressively in the more recent past?

Yes, before I got it and past actions mean nothing, what matters is the current health of the tree. By the way, do you know what species this is?

Maybe I'm wrong on all these points, but the photos show me a tree that might have some "issues" that need addressing now, before a final design is imposed on it.

Thanks for your concern, but your key words are "may have" Considering that I am observing the tree in person and not from a poor picture, I will continue on the path I chose for this impossible tree, which was simply adding a single guy wire to it, removing foliage growing straight up or down to allow sunlight into the remaining and waiting.

We'll see what happens next year.


Now how about the path I choose, is there a better option with this tree?



Will

 

[Anonymous User]

The tree looks very healthy? Growing for two years with only an inch or two of foliage to show for it?

Do you think the ramification magically appeared without pinching?

Did you read my first posts about trying to induce back budding?


How about it mcspesq, do you have anything constructive to add to this thread, or are you just going to continue sniping, trolling, and attempting to incite as you have in all your other posts in this thread?




Will

 

[rockm]

Will,

Again you minimize issues and attempt to marginalize others opinions and observations. One person's nitpicking is another's attention to detail. Some of the details here shouldn't be neglected.

To your points:

Moss on trunks is not a good thing. Saying it's not a big deal doesn't make it not a big deal.

Here in the South, we have considerably more humidity for moss than up North--I am very familiar with the symptoms showing up in your pot. Moss inside the root zone indicates drainage is poor in that area--REGARDLESS of what soil surrounds it. It indicates there is probably a denser soil that remains in the masses' interior and is retaining alot of moisture. This condition is accented when surrounded with a better draining soil mix, as one tends to aggressively water the free draining soil, while ignoring what's happening with the soggier interior soil. With such a free draining soil, you should be having MINIMAL moss issues.

Another symptom of excessive interior moisture is a rotting trunk at soil level--the close up shows this may indeed be an issue you have not addressed. The wood looks dark and damp--again not something that would be happening if your soil were as free draining as you say it is...

"Yes, before I got it and past actions mean nothing, what matters is the current health of the tree. By the way, do you know what species this is?"

This is simple inexperience. Past actions can mean EVERYTHING in wiring and design. Callus tissue resulting from aggressive limb repositioning or trunk scarification does not conduct nutrients between roots and foliage. That means, if there is was substantial damage to the tissues on the branch from crushing, or from wire, you may be dealing with a very fragile branch. A fragile branch might simply shut down if even slight repositioning compromises its possibly smaller life line.

Also the life line on the trunk that is keeping that limb alive is smaller than you think it is. The scar tissue at the life line's edges, or even the majority of "live" tissue on the trunk, isn't conducting nutrients. It's just covering dead trunk.

 

[mcpesq817]

Do you think the ramification magically appeared without pinching?

Did you read my first posts about trying to induce back budding?

You're right Will - I'm blown away by the ramification and other progress you have made in two years. Your skill is quite impressive. I'm eagerly looking forward to your book, which I hope devotes chapter upon chapter on this tree.

How about it mcspesq, do you have anything constructive to add to this thread, or are you just going to continue sniping, trolling, and attempting to incite as you have in all your other posts in this thread?

You can try playing the victim card, but as I said to you in response to your various PMs insulting me:

1. I'm not the one that has been banned from various bonsai boards.

2. I'm not the one that was busted for plagiarism in an article I wrote.

3. I'm not the one who had a number of people writing the editor of Bonsai Today asking that I be removed as a contributing author to the magazine because of my behavior in (1) and (2) above.

I'll let your reputation speak for itself. Have a good day.

 

[Klytus]

Bring back Kong!

 

[greerhw]

Bonsai forums and posts are like a meal, some are for Vegans while others are for Vegetarians and a rare few that are for Carnivores. Vegans are boring to eat with, while Vegetarians can add a unhuh to a meal, but I like a steak and potatos with red wine. Conversation is much more interesting with meat eaters. Who knows, you might even learn someting from time to time.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Rick Moquin]

Here in the South, we have considerably more humidity for moss than up North--I am very familiar with the symptoms showing up in your pot. Moss inside the root zone indicates drainage is poor in that area--REGARDLESS of what soil surrounds it. It indicates there is probably a denser soil that remains in the masses' interior and is retaining alot of moisture. This condition is accented when surrounded with a better draining soil mix, as one tends to aggressively water the free draining soil, while ignoring what's happening with the soggier interior soil. With such a free draining soil, you should be having MINIMAL moss issues.

It is surprising how many refute this observation. I know folks think I am "looney" for suggesting bare rooting everything I take home before placing them in good bonsai substrate. The indicated area is exactly where bad stuff happens as professed by many, but known too few, regardless of how healthy the remainder of the root system is. I suspect the latter is because that particular myth has never been debunked.

 

[Anonymous User]

1. I'm not the one that has been banned from various bonsai boards.

2. I'm not the one that was busted for plagiarism in an article I wrote.

3. I'm not the one who had a number of people writing the editor of Bonsai Today asking that I be removed as a contributing author to the magazine because of my behavior in (1) and (2) above.

I'll let your reputation speak for itself. Have a good day.

I'll just respond to this drivel by quoting what I already said in response in the PM's:


On banning...

I was banned from exactly two bonsai forums, Bchat and BT, both which no longer exist. By the way, the bchat ban was part of a mass ban which included the likes of Vance Wood, John Chown and others, very good company.


On plagiarizism...

You really need to investigate things before you quote others. You are referring to the chopstick article in which only the intro only was unintentionally plagiarized and which still to this day has the notation, "The history of chopsticks above was unintentionally plagiarized from the Asian Art Mall (http://www.asianartmall.com/chopstickshistory.htm). Full credit for the history should be attributed to them. The introduction above has been left on-line with full permission from the original source." Since then every single article I have wrote after and before that article and all 18 that were published in Bonsai Today, ABS Journal, Bonsai Focus, and others have been examined by people just like yourself and not a single plagiarized word was ever found. The facts always wins, let go of your false notions.


On letter writing campaigns...

Yes, there were three people doing that and they never accomplished a single thing with Bonsai Today, or ABS Journal (see my article this month?), or even Bonsai Focus. I still am published on a regular basis and I recently edited Robert Stevens new book, not to mention having a publisher talk me into writing my own book which should be printed by the spring if there isn't another rewrite. So do you think that small letter writing campaign accomplished a thing? On the contrary, it pissed people off and actually got me published more, imagine that!


I have never denied these things, in fact I have addressed them head on, just like now, anytime they were brought up. My reputation is doing fine, backed by actual accomplishments, thanks for your concern though.

Now back to the real issue, you have done nothing but try and incite thoughout this whole thread, you have had nothing to say on the subject and seem determined to incite another flame war here. Why is that?

No one is crying "victim" here, the facts are plain and simple, anyone can go back and read your posts in this thread, the truth is laid bare.


Now, do you have anything at all to say on the subject?



Will

 

[Anonymous User]

Rockm,

I don't know how else to say this, the tree is in good health, there is no "old soil" around the roots, I re-potted it myself the last time. The trunk is not rotting, there are new roots, the soil drains great, the moss is removed occasionally, as with all my bonsai. Nothing is rotting away, the tree grows, is pinched, and grows some more. It went through a heavy hack back as mentioned last year, it responded well enough to pinch back again this year.

So in short, and with all due respect, the only inexperience here is that of trying to judge the health of a tree with a obviously poor photograph.

For the sake of argument, assume the tree is in great health, do you have a design option or any ideas at all?

 

[Klytus]

This time last year i was out digging saplings,they all came away with no soil and no fibrous roots as their native earth was dry and crumbled away.

All four Beech survived frozen into regular terracotta pots and even after another repotting in spring went on to put out more growth than i could have hoped for.

These pots were frozen to some rubber mat by a puddle of ice.

The two Yews were not so blessed and withered away,by about April it was decided they were unquestionably dead.

A Hornbeam survived extreme pruning and soggy collected soil followed by freezing roots,it went on to survive a gentle repotting in the spring and another repotting in late summer.

I spent many minutes admiring it's efforts to repair it's nasty wounds,it's not done yet.

 

[ovation22]

I have learned grafting, thanks, but again...I asked for viable solutions for the material as presented, with one branch. Certainly lengthening the branch and creating ramification are not only viable, but needed.

For the record, I was using the collective you.

I'm curious why you dismiss grafting? I would think that you could easily replace all the foliage and place branches where you would like with, say, a donor shimpaku. If you simply wish not to that's certainly your choice, but that doesn't make it less viable of an option.

You ask what others would do with it as presented and then dismiss their thoughts and ideas, with a few exceptions of course. If I was tasked with this tree I would surely leave it, plant it, or any number of things. You seem determined to work on an already weak tree that's lost 2/3 of it's branches. Further work only lessens your options, weakening, and dwindling finally to a single option of "toothpick". (That is not meant to be harsh towards you, Will, but a warning to newer members who might stumble upon this thread)

I think I share the same concern as rock that newer members will see this and think that they can get away with working a tree down to almost nothing. My preference is to have an extremely healthy tree with an abundance of growth to present a number of possible options. Pinching is not something I would be doing with this tree. It needs growth. It needs to gain strength. You would be surprised by how much more bud break you'll get from a freely growing juniper. Only then would I think about cutting back and developing ramification.

 

[Anonymous User]

I'm curious why you dismiss grafting? I would think that you could easily replace all the foliage and place branches where you would like with, say, a donor shimpaku. If you simply wish not to that's certainly your choice, but that doesn't make it less viable of an option.

It is true that grafting is an option for this tree and I apologize if I dismissed it, it's just that I was looking for solutions using the tree as it is and with what it presented at this time.

You seem determined to work on an already weak tree that's lost 2/3 of it's branches. Further work only lessens your options, weakening, and dwindling finally to a single option of "toothpick". (That is not meant to be harsh towards you, Will, but a warning to newer members who might stumble upon this thread)

1) The tree lost branches when I first got it, it has been doing fine since.
2) The only work here was another trimming to let sun into the foliage, please compare the "stacked" foliage in the first photo below and the close up of the branch once lightly trimmed. A simple guy wire was added, I don't think this is overworked by any definition, as without thinning, foliage would have been lost anyhow. There is no further work planned for this year.

I think I share the same concern as rock that newer members will see this and think that they can get away with working a tree down to almost nothing.

Hopefully by reading my posts in this thread, newcomers will see that the tree was nothing, not worked to nothing, but brought from nothing and that from nothing something can possibly come.




Will