Learning from a Waste of Time.

Ok I thought you wanted real advice not spit balling and blue sky pie in the eye crap. Ok

Fo me, I could achieve something like this in 5 years with that. Of course to achieve this I would need to put it in the ground to get from "A" to "B"onsai.

Is that more clear and consise for you?

Photo courtesy Vaughn Banting

Not bad AL, thanks for playing. However, we have one single branch to work with here, without putting it in the ground for five years. I can't add branches, so your example is really impossible with this piece of material.

Let try this senario, you're at a convention, three names were pulled from the attendees. The challenge is this tree as presented, all three people have the same tree. Your name was pulled.

The grand prize is huge, hundreds are looking on to see what possibly could be accomplished with such crap.

Rules are simple, using the material as is, show a viable design solution, that is feasible to obtain, and which does not require adding branches.

One of the participants will just look at this tree and say nothing can be done and give up.

The other two will give it a go, they may not be successful, but they will tackle the challenge



...which brings us right back to the topic and whole point of this thread.....


Learning from a waste of time.


BTW...at your level I am more than highly qualified....heck even Vance is highly qualified.

give me a break....

No sense tossing around insults Al, you said HIGHLY qualified, certainly you don't place yourself in the same league as Kimura, Pall, Stevens who are indeed, highly qualified.



Keep it civil, please.
 
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However, we have one single branch to work with here, without putting it in the ground for five years. I can't add branches, so your example is really impossible with this piece of material.

Let try this senario, you're at a convention, three names were pulled from the attendees. The challenge is this tree as presented, all three people have the same tree. Your name was pulled.

The grand prize is huge, hundreds are looking on to see what possibly could be accomplished with such crap.

Rules are simple, using the material as is, show a viable design solution, that is feasible to obtain, and which does not require adding branches.

...which brings us right back to the topic and whole point of this thread.....

Learning from a waste of time.

Will,
Every time I want to jump in seems there is a new twist...which is bumfuzzling.

As the tree is presented in this thread there is no design solution for a quality tree, as shown. One small branch with minimal foliage on it.

Yet , unless I misunderstand you, your holding an ace back. If am to understand correctly you have grown this tree, or should I say branch, out. If so lets get on with the show, and we can see what type of material we actually have to play with.

However if it hasn't been grown out then the lesson is "learning not to waste your time". Which is a lesson I was taught by Colin very early on with material as presented in your current image.

As for the scenario...well...all I can say is that I pity the participants that actually excepted the challenge. I can recall several times when well known professionals at such an event and situation refused to work on sub grade material and walked from the convention. That type of commitment to bonsai and self respect is what separates the men from the boys. (ladies feel free to flip flop gender)

So Will if there is more to this tree lets see where your going.......
 
... you said HIGHLY qualified, certainly you don't place yourself in the same league as Kimura, Pall, Stevens who are indeed, highly qualified.

Will,

I don't understand the need to insult here. So you don't think Al qualified. That's fine. I (and I'm sure many others) do and look forward to reading his opinions on trees when he offers them. It was not he who invoked Kimura etc., it was you, and I'm at a loss as to why.

You also seem to be faulting Al for starting with better material. I don't mind your choice to grow bonsai from nursery material, in fact I commend you for it to a point, but to use it as an excuse against those who don't limit themselves to this single source?

Why do you see it as a cop out to choose to spend time on better material?

I know if I were in attendance at any bonsai event and this came out as demo material I would walk away shaking my head. Sure, something could be made with this material over many years, but demo material it is not.
 
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Will,

Giving it some more thought, are you merely looking for a drawing? Would your hypothetical convention "demonstration" be a sketch and a plan for the future only? (I would still feel pretty cheated)

To be fair, Al's posted image and an option for more branching is feasible once you learn grafting. Check back to your first post in this thread and you'll see even some of the images you posted as inspiration had more than one branch.
 
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However if it hasn't been grown out then the lesson is "learning not to waste your time". Which is a lesson I was taught by Colin very early on with material as presented in your current image.

That type of commitment to bonsai and self respect is what separates the men from the boys. (ladies feel free to flip flop gender)

Exactly, why bother wasting time? I've learned much more working on better stock than a stick in a pot like this.
 
Giving it some more thought, are you merely looking for a drawing? Would your hypothetical convention "demonstration" be a sketch and a plan for the future only? (I would still feel pretty cheated)

John, that is a fair statement ...but you know as well as I, fantasy and reality are two different animals. Sketches, virts and the like are usually created from materials that are ready to work. So asking us to do a rendering of what could be, is an exercise in futility. Anything is possible in our imagination ... whether it is realistic or not based on horticultural and design knowledge is a whole different story. That is an unknown here based on what was presented.
 
Tom,

I agree with you completely. I was just trying to give Will the benefit of the doubt here and look for what it is that he's trying to get with this thread.

Unfortunately I fear I am just another fish that has taken the bait.
 
what an ugly little thing...poor tree must have done something atrocious to deserve such a beating...
 
Will,
Every time I want to jump in seems there is a new twist...which is bumfuzzling.
Sorry, just trying to say the same thing in different ways. I thought I was clear, I just wanted to hear what others would do with this material as is, without having the options of trashing it or putting it in the ground.

If am to understand correctly you have grown this tree, or should I say branch, out...
Yes, as mentioned, I have managed to thicken the branch some and lengthen it.

When I first looked at this tree as shown in the first picture in this thread, the only viable option I could see involved lengthening the branch and developing some ramification. An option that was within reasonable measures of possibilities, hence certainly feasible, more so and less time consuming than (based on past experiences with this tree as mentioned) back-budding or grafting.

As the tree is presented in this thread there is no design solution for a quality tree, as shown. One small branch with minimal foliage on it.
Thank you, I appreciate you simply stating your honest thoughts on this.

You also seem to be faulting Al for starting with better material. I don't mind your choice to grow bonsai from nursery material, in fact I commend you for it to a point, but to use it as an excuse against those who don't limit themselves to this single source?
You, and others miss the point here. The title of this thread alone explains my thoughts on this tree, my opinion does not differ from Al's, yours, or others here, this has been made perfectly clear. Where we differ is that I am challenged by this material for many reasons, mainly because I was challenged and because it was a gift.

Why do you see it as a cop out to choose to spend time on better material?
I never said or claimed this here.

What I did was ask that this tree be addressed as it is now, and not to use the standard cop out of put it in the ground or trash it. I asked that people use creativity, talent, and foresight to take their best shot at creating something from the material as is. If you can not see a viable option, then by all means say so, no harm in saying there is nothing there, or from walking away from a challenge at a convention (as in the scenario above) if you can't see anything here.

I know if I were in attendance at any bonsai event and this came out as demo material I would walk away shaking my head. Sure, something could be made with this material over many years, but demo material it is not.
We are different here, I would explain the difficulties working with such material and the very limited options it presents, but I would take my best shot at it.

Will,Giving it some more thought, are you merely looking for a drawing? Would your hypothetical convention "demonstration" be a sketch and a plan for the future only? (I would still feel pretty cheated)
Drawing, virt, explanation, all of the above. I simply asked what would you do with this material, not having "plant it" or "trash it" as options. For the record, I also never asked for an instant bonsai, just a viable solution to the problems presented with this material.

To be fair, Al's posted image and an option for more branching is feasible once you learn grafting.
I have learned grafting, thanks, but again...I asked for viable solutions for the material as presented, with one branch. Certainly lengthening the branch and creating ramification are not only viable, but needed.

Check back to your first post in this thread and you'll see even some of the images you posted as inspiration had more than one branch.
This is true, but only because they are in the same images as the pictures with one single branch. I apologize for not being clearer, I was using the one branched trees as examples.
 
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I've learned much more working on better stock than a stick in a pot like this.

Well...this maybe true. However this material Will presented offers a very important lesson. One that no high grade piece of bonsai stock can...when to say no....even if it is a gift or challenge. Which is the most important lesson of all.

If you went to a orthopedic surgeon for an opinion on a torn ligament and he he wanted to give you a free colonoscopy as a gift, would you accept? When you balked a bit and he challenged or dared you to take it...would you?

OR

Would you say NO thanks and go and look for another orthopedic surgeon that stayed on topic of your torn ligament and was focused on bettering you and keeping you in the game?
 
Frankly this is Will's challange and no one elses. So, with that in mind why don't you Will just make something from it and post it as a progression and stop busting everyone elses chops.

This is your gig...

let's see what YOU can do...
 
Well...this maybe true. However this material Will presented offers a very important lesson. One that no high grade piece of bonsai stock can...when to say no....even if it is a gift or challenge. Which is the most important lesson of all.

If you went to a orthopedic surgeon for an opinion on a torn ligament and he he wanted to give you a free colonoscopy as a gift, would you accept? When you balked a bit and he challenged or dared you to take it...would you?

OR

Would you say NO thanks and go and look for another orthopedic surgeon that stayed on topic of your torn ligament and was focused on bettering you and keeping you in the game?

Hey Tom,

I've unfortunately had to do the orthopedic surgeon thing in the past - the diagnosis was bad enough that I was glad they didn't throw in a free colonoscopy :)

As for the thread generally, I just don't understand why the author continually posts weak bonsai material and issues "challenges" to people to create something out of nothing. Nobody is learning from these posts, but they end up degrading into squabbles. When the author tells people that they are "cop outs" if they won't waste their time coming up with some sort of virtual, then is that really fostering a learning environment?

It just gets tiresome after a while.
 
Frankly this is Will's challange and no one elses. So, with that in mind why don't you Will just make something from it and post it as a progression and stop busting everyone elses chops.

This is your gig...

let's see what YOU can do...

Al, if this bothers you, feel free not to participate. I would have to say that the only chop busting here is coming from you, how about instead of complaining, see if you can see any solution here, if you can.

The question again Al, is what can YOU do.

As for the thread generally, I just don't understand why the author continually posts weak bonsai material and issues "challenges" to people to create something out of nothing. Nobody is learning from these posts, but they end up degrading into squabbles. When the author tells people that they are "cop outs" if they won't waste their time coming up with some sort of virtual, then is that really fostering a learning environment?

It just gets tiresome after a while.
What gets tiresome is people reading far more into a post than is there, not to mention coloring them with their own personal biases.

You mentioned that I continually post weak bonsai material and issue challenges to create something out of nothing.....Please show me where I have done this continually on this forum, in fact, please show me where it was done at any other time here.

They end up in squabbles simply because people like you decide to post only to complain. The answer here is simple, if you don't like the post, if you don't want to participate, then don't. What good do you think your posts serve at all? Do you think people "are learning" from your posts?

Lastly, I never told anyone they were "cop outs" what I said was I didn't want to here the standard cop outs of trashing it or putting it in the ground.

The challenge still remains, can you see any viable options in this material, considering it only has one branch? Yes, it is weak material, yes, it is poor material, yes it poses a challenge, all this was fully admitted in the first post, in fact the title itself calls this material a waste of time....repeating this in every one of your posts will not change it, Al and yourself seem determined to repeat what I freely admit, what's the point?

The question again, without using the cop out of trashing it or planting it, is there a feasible option for this tree. It is actually a simple yes or no option, if yes, then post it, others have....if no then just say so, Tom did. "As the tree is presented in this thread there is no design solution for a quality tree, as shown. One small branch with minimal foliage on it." I respect his words, simple, straight to the point, and honest.

Why is this such a difficult concept for others?



Will
 
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They end up in squabbles simply because people like you decide to post only to complain.

Will, no offense, but every time there is a squabble on here, you are somehow involved, not anyone else. That is what is getting tiresome.

Have a good day.
 
Thought-provoking thread.

When determining whether or not to keep or discard a certain material, there are some factors pertaining to each individual, that will help in deciding.

* Is there a design solution exciting enough that the tree keeps me interested?
* If yes, what will it take to achieve it (how much time, what kind of growing conditions, etc.)?
* Lastly, but most importantly: how high on my priorities list is this tree? In other words, if I have dozens of trees, of much better quality, that are waiting for me to work on, then I will simply not have the time to get to this inferior stock. Therefore, I can't afford to spend time on it.

Considering the above criteria, some of us will say that yes, this tree is worth working on, while others will discard it faster than what it takes to pronounce Allotta Fagina.

In Will's case, before we recommend a course of action, we need to know all the answers to the above mentioned criteria, as they pertain to Will. It's easy for me to say "No,this tree is a waste of time for me", but that doesn't mean that Will should not work on it. It may be that working on this tree would be a great learning experience for Will, so this alone would require further consideration.

Here are my thoughts on the John Naka sketches provided by Will:

Yes, those are great models to be followed. But, there is always a BUT: the material presented lacks some important characteristcs that those drawings have:

1) The drawings display impressive and flawless nebari: they create the impression of great age. The material in question displays a juvenile root-base (it is not a bad one, by the way, but just not good enough). This alone disqualifies it from any further comparison.

2) The drawings create the impression of massive and tall trunk. Some of them have great taper. Others don't have much taper, but the impression is still of tall and large trunk. In comparison, the trunk of the material in question lacks the above described qualities. This is the second insurmountable probmem, in addition to the deficient nebari.

The above two elements - nebari and trunk - are the main focal points of the sketches drawn by John Naka. Those are what make the trees drawn by him, magnificent. And the lack of these elements, is what makes Will's material unsuitable.

In adddition, there are two more important elements in Naka's sketches:

3) Jin and shari - in the case of the sketches, they are subdued (nothing spectacular), but provide a solid support of the overall image. The material presented has the potential to display lots of deadwood, but of inferior quality. The reason being that there is not much trunk to work with, in the first place. A strong truk is always a good candidate for great deadwood. A weak trunk is much more challenged in this regard. There are exceptions, when a thin and fragile trunk displays great deadwood, but it is very rare.

4) The last characteristic that I want to mention is the quality of the bark. This is not so evident in Naka's sketches, but it is implied. The trees displayed in the sketches are very old. The impression of age is only complete if the quality of the bark reflects that. If Will's material was a craggy old pine, with some fine bark texture, that would be a huge bonus, in spite of the other deficiencies. But it is not. In case of a juniper, there is no aged bark, but the interplay of live vein vs. deadwood creates the same effect. To a certain extent, this can be achieved with Will's material, but the potential is very limited, the reason being described in my comment about the weak trunk.

In summary, is the material presented at this stage, suitable to achieve the models provided by the Naka sketches? Based on the 4 criteria described above, the answer is a resounding NO. In bonsai, the devil is in the finest details. A quality bonsai displays quality details. We can always strive for a very superficial resemblance, but the problems will be glaringly obvious.

Since the material in its current stage is not suitable for a bonsai of acceptable quality (note: "acceptable quality" is highly subjective - see my opening comments in this post), the second question is: can we create quality stock from this, that will be suitable for the models presented?
The answer to this is: highly unlikely. There is a particular reason for this, namely, the tree has minimal foliage. In order to develop a powerful nebari and trunk, the tree needs lots of foliage. So, if we wanted to develop more character, we would have to re-grow all the foliage that was previously removed. And that would be a total waste of time, since there is plenty of cheap material available, that already has lots of foliage. Why would someone spend years of re-growing it, when one can buy one for 6 bucks?

So, my answer is exactly what Will said in the title of this thread: this tree would be a waste of time for me. I could have said this from the beginning, without any explanation, but an answer with no explanation is of little use. I apologize for being too elaborate in my response. I know that Will asked for a design solution, if we can offer one. Since this post has none, it is useless in that regard. But I hope that the value here lies in suggesting why there is none.

But again, the tree may be worth keeping, as far as Will is concerned. I don't know his circumstances, how many trees he is currently working on, what is "acceptable quality" for him, etc. etc.

By the way, I don't agree with those who say that this thread is a waste of time, due to the quality of the material presented. Stock selection is one of the most important skills in bonsai, and any thread that deals with stock selection can be highly educational. The strong merit of this thread is that Will presented a deficient material, and then suggested some models that may or may not be worth pursuing. The challenge for me was to think about whether those models are realistic.
 
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I'll try and stop squabbling with myself then???

Whoops, that didn't come out right. My point was that you're the common element present in all the squabbles here (and on other boards), not anyone else.
 
A Heath mudman could run up a miniature white flag,sadly these were all lost at sea.

I envision a scene from the old west,a pair of deserted long johns hang on the branches.
 
I envision a scene from the old west,a pair of deserted long johns hang on the branches.

That's a quite powerful and poetic vision. I can totally imagine that, using the little juniper.
A desolate scene from the arid scrubland, a little juniper barely clinging to life, and some deserted personal belongings, memories of lives from the not so distant past.

(the only thing missing is a model train chugging by, and I got an endearing scene for my son to ponder on - so quite seriously, there is hope for the little tree, after all)
 
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