Is the current bonsai instructional system broken?

[sorce]

Yeah....so in reality this thing is comparable to nothing.

It must be defined.

This transitional period is real. Acting on this discussion now is important.

Owen, this IS the beginning!

It's about what those beginners are exposed to, and quite frankly, how we treat them when they come here (FB, IBC, etc) with what we deem, or more accurately, used to deem, sticks.

FB is infantile. IBC was ok when I was there.

I think we are the most advanced, when it comes to keeping people interested, the happy medium if you will, intelligent and infantile!

I always have that ripped up juniper in my head associated with a newb.
If we remember that tree, if kept alive, has infinite potential in time, we will be doing our best to help people hold the love, And advance.

Boy, I was talking with the Sorceress about Scouts, baseball, Sokol, hell, the school system itself....
We are in a terrible losing battle with education right now. Mostly because the internet has tied red ribbons around every tree. There is simply too much information to "police".

Not to mention how people are generally "fed up", road rage, stress, prescriptions up to wazoo, work environments operate at a level just above the posted requirements of OSHA Standards. Or more usual, since the required postings are up, that no one reads, they operate well below all standards.

The only thing bonsai has going for it, and what makes it incomparable, is that it has the potential to relieve some of that stress.

This is where it's success hides.

Right behind the trouble that is, in order for it to be successful, which in this context, translates to Owen being truely happy at every turn in this thing, in order to for it to be successful,.....

It must dip it's toes into the same world we are using it to escape.

That's the bonsai professionals catch 22.

They have to deal with the shittiest part.

Business.

Everyone else just calls it a hobby. Cheapens it.

Furrnnnnt.

Sorce

 

[Coppersdad]

I'd say there are a lot of westerners who privately have fantasied about beating-up their old tyrant 4th-grade gym teachers and will not respond to pseudo autocratic dictators and tend to either be turned off or revolt, turn over the benches and start everything on fire.

You bet!!!

 

[Underdog]

I like the Gumby tree idea.

Me too

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

The difference between a hobby, and a necessity.
You will pay the plumber, what ever it takes to get the toilet flushing again. You will pay the surgeon or dentist what is needed to fix your problem. At some point, you pay what you have to get food on the table, you might change food choices based on available funds, but in the end you pay what is demanded.

You won't pay more than "fun money" to take a class in an art that does not put food on the table. Some of us have more "fun money" than others. Unfortunately this makes it difficult for bonsai professionals.

So comparing bonsai professionals to plumbers or surgeons, is really not valid. Necessities versus hobbies. The two categories fall at opposite ends of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

 

[Einbrecher]

Frankly, I think the issue is that, "We need to improve education!" is such an ambiguous and nebulous goal that it's almost impossible to lay out a plan. Just from an educational standpoint (taking Bonsai out of it), a lot of the advice and suggestions here aren't conflicting because one is right and the other is wrong, they're conflicting because the goals they serve are completely different.

On one hand, what's the education like in areas that are well served by local clubs and professionals and how would you improve that? On the other hand, how do you improve education in areas that aren't well served by local resources?

Those distinctions alone - which are still nebulous - are going to elicit advice that points in different directions. That's not very useful.

In my opinion as a beginner, the most alluring part of bonsai - the art - is the biggest weakness when it comes to learning. The majority of this hobby is governed by subjective criteria. This or that expert's opinion may well be respected as an objective criteria, but all it takes is one expert with a differing opinion to shatter it. Bonsai, from what I've seen so far at least, seems to have no shortage of differing views.

Sure, I can compile a do/don't list when it comes to wiring techniques and the like, but I can't do that when it comes to making those first cuts to a tree. Feedback that a certain action was "wrong" is easy to come by. Feedback that a certain action was "right" isn't. That complicates the learning process no matter who you are.

It's an unfortunate truth, but the only way to learn things like this is through exposure. I hate it, I wish there was a better way, but there's not. I've found diving into Bonsai to be very similar to learning how to improvise on a musical instrument - something I've both learned and taught. No matter how many books you read or lessons you have, the only way to really learn is to just do it over and over and over again. At least with music, the feedback is much more rapid. The time scale of feedback for Bonsai is something I'll need to adjust to.

 

[sorce]

Truth truth, there isn't a system.

If there was a System, it would include a tiny bit of acknowledgement of the people who grow things out.
There would be a clear distinction between a grower and a upkeeper.
For, in the end, we may be teaching a bunch of people excellent lessons to apply to NO material worthy of the lessons.

A System will Acknowledge all Facets of Itself.
There isn't a system.

This train of thought because I wonder 2 things @Owen Reich , what brought on these questions? And what do we hope is the outcome, or, what will we do with the information?

It matters to me greatly because I am trying to fit into the "risk" of "going all in".

I feel like no one can really "go all in" without these questions answered. Which is why I appreciate the conversation.

Matters because one can not be all of a grower, a trainer, a pot seller, a teacher...
And still produce excellent material.

But this unsurity forces us to All remain subpar in every area. Rather than having superiority in one discipline.

We are hovering between a righteous market and not, because we are hovering between a righteous market and not.

@kingsville grower , I think about you when I think about someone growing stock for a living. (I don't know of this is true, but if it could be...?) Maybe you have an opinion.

And this is said with the end goal of, less work, more $, and better material out there....

I feel like we are at this point of ...
Struggling to sell 6 "ok" trees priced at $400, so we sell 1. Gross $400
When we could grow and sell 2 excellent ones at $800. Gross $1600.

I envision tridents, since these seem common and close to accurate for numbers.

The question I have as far as fitting the education into the business.....

Do we have, or, can we afford to have one or two paid assistants, to tend these 2 excellent trees?

Or, do we educate the public, to be able to take those 6 $400 trees (buy, gross $2400)
Because they know how to graft roots, prune correctly, or more importantly, identify the need to do something at all!, To make those $400 trees worth $800?

We can sell them the education right?
But then they don't need us at all.

I think it is more responsible for us to take the risks and start producing less, but better material.

There's nothing sadder, or more uneccesary, than a tree sitting on an unkempt sales shelf.

At some point, it's better for the market to give trees away.

Imagine the last tree you saw that no one cared about. They're everywhere! Have that in someone's hands who will love it for the next x years, and all of a sudden we have a lot better stuff out there. And $ is created. In Bonsai, for Bonsai......

You know, if our end goal wasn't to prey on each other....
If our end goal was to prey on the general public.....
And by that I mean, put on artistic events that the very general public will pay to view, we might put our resources to better use.

Seems Ryan tested the waters, internally, with that one show...maybe he's waiting for those Miraiflix subscriptions to have that pop money it takes to make those shows?

A club should have a goal to create little local things so tantalizing, they can stay afloat off monthly exhibits alone!

We all know the extreme power this thing has.
Too much argument about the power, not enough education on weilding it.

We just cheapen the power cheapen the power.....

We steal from each other.

We should share with each other and steal from the general public.

You love bonsai enough to believe in a show so amazing regular people will pay to see.
This is true because we were all regular people once.

Sorce

 

[SilverioSan]

I am not sure if I will come out of the topic, but this is what I think.

I do agree on many comments, for instance how a novice can distinguish from a professional to someone is not.

I am not willing to pay for the Mirai online, great content for what I have seen just not accessible to all.

I have been only once to a bonsai club meet up and the let it grow kind of philosophy was the opposite. I felt something was wrong!

Bonsai Clubs should have a program in place, more like the schools. Clubs should talk with each other if they don't do it already and share the materials.

Yes, I would love to learn more but for me reading, writing, sharing what I have done so far in the hope of some masterpiece will give his 2 cents and watching Youtube is all I have. In the end, the decision will be mine.

 

[leatherback]

Bonsai Clubs should have a program in place, more like the schools.

Ido not know what it is like in the USA. But here the clubs have a hard time to get volunteers to run workshops. There is no money involved. Asking to do a full on programme.. I think that is expecting too much from people who are also just members of a club.

My club does a 10-week course on bonsai basics for new members / interested people. Once a year. That really is all we can ensure having people for to run it.

 

[Shibui]

Different clubs have different ways.
Many of our larger city clubs run courses. Some clubs charge a fee to attend and the presenters get paid. Those clubs often run a number of courses each year because the presenters are willing to do more as they feel valued and get some compensation for the time and effort. I know one club that manages 2 or 3 beginner courses each year as well as monthly workshops and specialty day or short courses like carving, pines, advanced bending, etc. Members pay for all those courses and activities and line up for the next one because the standard is high with good teachers and great knowledge.
There are other clubs that run free courses and don't charge a fee. As Leatherback points out, they tend to run less often because the presenters don't volunteer too often.
Smaller clubs still have issues because of lack of skilled members and time. It tends to fall on just 1 or 2 members to plan and run everything in smaller clubs.

 

[BobbyLane]

never been to a club or workshop.everything i know is from studying what more experienced professionals who's work i like have done.most has been from online research. in fact ALL i know is from online research.

 

[JudyB]

never been to a club or workshop.everything i know is from studying what more experienced professionals who's work i like have done.most has been from online research. in fact ALL i know is from online research.

Actually I think a lot of your work has come out of studying natural trees, as I have done as well. I think that can be a good educational component, and it's all around you.

 

[BobbyLane]

Actually I think a lot of your work has come out of studying natural trees, as I have done as well. I think that can be a good educational component, and it's all around you.

Ah yes Mother Nature, she is the best

your work has been an inspiration too along the way

 

[JudyB]

Ah yes Mother Nature, she is the best

your work has been an inspiration too along the way

As my work has been informed and inspired by many others. You can learn a lot by working to be an informed person, and can pursue a course that you can tailor to yourself. You just have to find the best way for you.
I don't know if a streamlined educational system would work in this hobby, with so many variables. But I think that regional centers of study is the way this is going to go. Regional gets you the climate education you need, keeps it reasonable travel wise, and can make it more affordable for many more individuals wishing to gain excellence.

I do think that beginner teaching is best left to clubs as that is what they seem to attract, and find a way to teach reasonably well. In fact it is their bread and butter, as gaining new recruits seems to be the thing they live on.
Actually those who think that only having fabulous material is the way, I disagree with. If not for the roadside vendor, or the Wallyworld SIAP's how many people would even get a start into the hobby? I do think that there is certainly a call for better pre-bonsai, as there is plenty of crap out there. But I see it getting better all the time, not going the other way. And good/great material is out there if you know where to look and can commit to the expense of acquisition.

So I guess for me the answer to the OP question is no, but I think that it is transitioning into something that will be more accessible in the long term.

 

[A. Gorilla]

Yes.

 

[sorce]

I don't know about clubs except from what I know about them.

But the problem I see all the time in these educational scenarios is limited knowledge coming from the top because the most educated or best teacher isn't the most ....power hungry? Dominant? Vocal?

Then whoever is at the top just sits up there limiting everyone to their level of possible knowledge and excellence.

Identifying individual noob needs is most important.
Someone has to be able to know what a newb needs most. This information could be written. A questionnaire. Hell you could write a program. Find out who in the club to best pair someone up with.

These subtle learning differences make a giant difference, as soon as you step outside of the dictator realm.
We are not in the dictator realm so we Must pay attention to these things.

The only reason it works at school is because they are trying to churn out children who purchase. Children!

A weekly meeting for 6 months isn't enough time to set up a good show IMO. But I guess Bill has accurate numbers on that!

Sorce

 

[Forsoothe!]

The local and regional Hosta clubs in the mid-west, from NY to Iowa, the Carolinas and Georgia to Minnesota formed Hosta College in the mid-90's. It's a two day event in the middle of Ohio because that's the center of the mid-west. Look it over, and you'll find it works pretty well attracting about 500 people a year. The teachers are volunteers who receive free tuition in return for teaching one class, and free buffet dinner for a second class. You can see that the range of kinds of classes from just fun to highly technical. Like every worthwhile thing that ever existed , it takes one person to organize it and make it happen. The lady who was that force in Hosta was the wife of a prominent hybridizer in Michigan, smart but not a Hosta expert. One person needs to step forward in Bonsai. I'm too old.

 

[JudyB]

The local and regional Hosta clubs in the mid-west, from NY to Iowa, the Carolinas and Georgia to Minnesota formed Hosta College in the mid-90's. It's a two day event in the middle of Ohio because that's the center of the mid-west. Look it over, and you'll find it works pretty well attracting about 500 people a year. The teachers are volunteers who receive free tuition in return for teaching one class, and free buffet dinner for a second class. You can see that the range of kinds of classes from just fun to highly technical. Like every worthwhile thing that ever existed , it takes one person to organize it and make it happen. The lady who was that force in Hosta was the wife of a prominent hybridizer in Michigan, smart but not a Hosta expert. One person needs to step forward in Bonsai. I'm too old.

Hostas are a far cry from bonsai.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Hostas are a far cry from bonsai.

You're right! Hosta hybridizing involves choosing and acquiring desirable pod and pollen parents, back-crossing to aggregate desired characteristics, forcing genetic ploidy mutations with chemical treatments of seed, seedlings and meristem tissue, and/or all of the above. Bonsai, on the other hand is complex.

 

[Bolero]

Walter Pall does it all....he is the Master, other than Smoke, Leo, Source, Adair, Etc

 

[Adair M]

You're right! Hosta hybridizing involves choosing and acquiring desirable pod and pollen parents, back-crossing to aggregate desired characteristics, forcing genetic ploidy mutations with chemical treatments of seed, seedlings and meristem tissue, and/or all of the above. Bonsai, on the other hand is complex.

Hmmm... sounds to me hosta hybridizing is very similiar to azalea hybridizing, and everybody knows how to do that!

LOL!!!