Is the current bonsai instructional system broken?

[Owen Reich]

Truth truth, there isn't a system.

If there was a System, it would include a tiny bit of acknowledgement of the people who grow things out.
There would be a clear distinction between a grower and a upkeeper.
For, in the end, we may be teaching a bunch of people excellent lessons to apply to NO material worthy of the lessons.

A System will Acknowledge all Facets of Itself.
There isn't a system.

This train of thought because I wonder 2 things @Owen Reich , what brought on these questions? And what do we hope is the outcome, or, what will we do with the information?

It matters to me greatly because I am trying to fit into the "risk" of "going all in".

I feel like no one can really "go all in" without these questions answered. Which is why I appreciate the conversation.

The reason I brought this up is I think the system is broken, in that most are not working with a single mentor or teacher. Many seem to crave new experiences without devoting time to improve. There’s a bonsai industry in America and abroad; it’s just really small. Is it worth it to go all in? I’d say yes, but I did it and didn’t go bankrupt. However, full time travel to teach is difficult and not sustainable (for regular life). Becoming a full time potter sounds like a great idea if your work sells for a good price often. Everyone who studies in bonsai or anything else eventually asks themselves “is this worth it?”. Those who say “yes” continue on.

 

[PeaceLoveBonsai]

I feel for all the bonsai professionals right now. I hope we can get back some form of normal soon, but every time I see a show cancelled, I realize there are many who won’t be compensated.

Every recession hurts discretionary spending. I fear Bonsai, for many, will be one of the first discretionary spends to stop.

I hope I’m wrong, but I am fearful for the short term future of professional bonsai.

 

[MrWunderful]

I feel for all the bonsai professionals right now. I hope we can get back some form of normal soon, but every time I see a show cancelled, I realize there are many who won’t be compensated.

Every recession hurts discretionary spending. I fear Bonsai, for many, will be one of the first discretionary spends to stop.

I hope I’m wrong, but I am fearful for the short term future of professional bonsai.

Some professionals are doing video consulting, which tried with my instructor. I found it reasonably priced, as well as valuable (and fun!)

Plus I didnt have to drag a bunch of trees for him.

I know some supply places are still open for pickup, dont forget to patronize your local Bonsai supply/professional!

 

[sorce]

Every recession hurts discretionary spending. I fear Bonsai, for many, will be one of the first discretionary spends to stop

I feel like the "Real" money in Bonsai isn't effected by this economy.
At worst you have a bunch of higher middle class trees getting bought up by those in the lowest rich category, that will still need work.

Fewer clients, more rents. Same $.

Also, this is one of the rare industries where, your inventory is getting better, not stale.

Sorce

 

[River's Edge]

I feel like the "Real" money in Bonsai isn't effected by this economy.
At worst you have a bunch of higher middle class trees getting bought up by those in the lowest rich category, that will still need work.

Fewer clients, more rents. Same $.

Also, this is one of the rare industries where, your inventory is getting better, not stale.

Sorce

One of the bright spots is that this is a rare opportunity to benefit from improved inventory with additional time to devote to refinement and development.
Also important to remember that everyone has the opportunity to adapt and progress. This too shall pass!
Many professionals find the travel difficult, new marketing strategies may evolve, supporting the industry and participants.
Many collectors will appreciate the additional time to increase inventory and work on improving husbandry practices.

 

[chicago1980]

How are they training and learning bonsai in China? Anyone have information on China, considering that area has been at it for centuries.

 

[sorce]

I'm convinced China Doesn't exist.

It's an imaginary scapegoat the world uses to blame shit on.

Sorce

 

[SouthernMaple]

Some professionals are doing video consulting, which tried with my instructor. I found it reasonably priced, as well as valuable (and fun!)

Plus I didnt have to drag a bunch of trees for him.

I know some supply places are still open for pickup, dont forget to patronize your local Bonsai supply/professional!

I don't know why there are aren't more youtube bonsai stars. I have talked to alot of bonsai people about Nigel Saunders and they say he isn't a professional yet he is still pumping out videos

 

[leatherback]

I don't know why there are aren't more youtube bonsai stars.

I think the content does not mix easily. People doing bonsai miht focus on the living world rather than on doing tech stuff? ANd those that do have a thriving business might find it hard to get things organizaed well online?

 

[Maloghurst]

I don't know why there are aren't more youtube bonsai stars. I have talked to alot of bonsai people about Nigel Saunders and they say he isn't a professional yet he is still pumping out videos

What about @Rafael Najmanovich?

 

[River's Edge]

Quality instruction involves teacher student interaction to ensure comprehension. Guided practice to ensure mastery of technique. Corrective feedback to push artistic boundaries.
Limits to presentation via media, too much demand for entertainment rather than the discipline of learning! The personality aspect of entertainment wears thin over time if learning is the prime objective.
Difficulties with interaction and guided practice that cannot match one on one or actual presence of teacher and student in the same room.
Better than some methods but inferior to actually working with the teacher in person.
Not to mention the cost of producing excellent instructional videos versus the income possible for same!

 

[MrWunderful]

I don't know why there are aren't more youtube bonsai stars. I have talked to alot of bonsai people about Nigel Saunders and they say he isn't a professional yet he is still pumping out videos

Filming and Editing a simple video is time consuming for someone who doesn't do it often (or as a career). Decent quality content like mirai, bonsai empire, bonsai-u etc. takes a team of people, something outside the realm of most professionals. Even taking clear decent pictures of bonsai takes effort and equipment.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

With You Tube, you are giving it away for free. You don't get money until you pass a certain number of thousands of viewers. A bonsai professional is just that, professional. Giving it away instruction videos won't pay the bills. The videos are good advertising. Most likely Bjorn got the bulk of his private students from people seeing one of the videos he did. But the videos didn't pay. (Owen Reich too, as he was a partner with Bjorn in at least the first 20 or so of the Bonsai Art of Japan series). Owen could speak to whether they made money from the videos. I doubt they did, even though in the Bonsai Community, they were very popular. In You Tube terms, they would be a drop in the bucket.

 

[Adair M]

With You Tube, you are giving it away for free. You don't get money until you pass a certain number of thousands of viewers. A bonsai professional is just that, professional. Giving it away instruction videos won't pay the bills. The videos are good advertising. Most likely Bjorn got the bulk of his private students from people seeing one of the videos he did. But the videos didn't pay. (Owen Reich too, as he was a partner with Bjorn in at least the first 20 or so of the Bonsai Art of Japan series). Owen could speak to whether they made money from the videos. I doubt they did, even though in the Bonsai Community, they were very popular. In You Tube terms, they would be a drop in the bucket.

For Bjorn, those “Bonsai Art of Japan” videos idea was brilliant! He became world famous while he was still an apprentice, so once his apprenticeship was over, he had clients demanding his services!

Great advertising, as Leo stated. He’s still putting out some free videos. I just watched a twopart series on making clump style Japanese Maples. Again, these are great for publicity!

 

[chicago1980]

Peter Chan is another who is doing well on YouTube.
Graham Potter was another.
Mauro Stemberger is slowly building his YouTube.
Mirai is doing it with YouTube and Vimeo.
Now you are seeing more "professionals" use YouTube.
You don't see many because many of them don't know how to make $$$ and build an audience with youtube.

I don't know why there are aren't more youtube bonsai stars. I have talked to alot of bonsai people about Nigel Saunders and they say he isn't a professional yet he is still pumping out videos

 

[Carol 83]

I feel for all the bonsai professionals right now. I hope we can get back some form of normal soon, but every time I see a show cancelled, I realize there are many who won’t be compensated.

Every recession hurts discretionary spending. I fear Bonsai, for many, will be one of the first discretionary spends to stop.

I hope I’m wrong, but I am fearful for the short term future of professional bonsai.

I have 2 trees coming from @Zach Smith in a couple of weeks, trying to do my part.

 

[SouthernMaple]

Quality instruction involves teacher student interaction to ensure comprehension. Guided practice to ensure mastery of technique. Corrective feedback to push artistic boundaries.
Limits to presentation via media, too much demand for entertainment rather than the discipline of learning! The personality aspect of entertainment wears thin over time if learning is the prime objective.
Difficulties with interaction and guided practice that cannot match one on one or actual presence of teacher and student in the same room.
Better than some methods but inferior to actually working with the teacher in person.
Not to mention the cost of producing excellent instructional videos versus the income possible for same!

make money through ads like everyone else on youtube. We have a dedicated network to watching other people play video games for crying out loud and half the videos on twitch are just people chatting and watching people eat food. Is bonsai that boring?

 

[SouthernMaple]

Peter Chan is another who is doing well on YouTube.
Graham Potter was another.
Mauro Stemberger is slowly building his YouTube.
Mirai is doing it with YouTube and Vimeo.
Now you are seeing more "professionals" use YouTube.
You don't see many because many of them don't know how to make $$$ and build an audience with youtube.

well I would watch someone like Owen or Adair over Nigel in a heartbeat

 

[Bonsai Nut]

“As bonsai professionals it’s our job to perpetuate these bonsai for the coming generations. We are caretakers of them.

I think that this is critical to keep in mind. Every single one of us has had a unique bonsai journey - with one exception: we were all beginners once. I think the answer to your question about "bonsai instructional system" depends on the objective you are trying to accomplish. Are you trying to turn people into bonsai experts in one or two days? Or are you trying to kindle a lifetime of enjoyment in an art form?

I think about this very subject with management of this web site. Am I trying to create the ultimate bonsai repository of perfect bonsai knowledge? Or am I trying to foster a community where people can come together and enjoy the art form on multiple levels; be they beginners, experienced hobbyists, or pros?

Ultimately, I feel that the art of bonsai in this country, technically, is advancing at a snail's pace... though it is still advancing. However INTEREST in the hobby is advancing much more rapidly - partly due to barriers falling where people felt intimidated discussing their "stick in a pot" they saw at Home Depot. As interest in the art advances, it creates demand for all levels of instruction - in addition to funding nurseries and making it possible for people to quit their day jobs to become full-time bonsai pros. It's kind of like we are building a pyramid. The masters are at the top. How stable will the pyramid be if the base shrinks every year? Conversely, if the base is growing, doesn't it demand more experts?

 

[Forsoothe!]

Sports is an analog to bonsai. There is every level of interest and expertise from couch potato to record holder and most people in the middle of a Bell Curve. As more and more people become interested in bonsai there will be more room at the top and the very best will be paid what they're worth. And the bonsai soil issue will be resolved, too!