Is the current bonsai instructional system broken?

[crust]

That depiction is the opposite of my experience, for whatever its worth.

This does not surprise me--and it encouraging to hear. My exaggerated high-drama explanation is just based on blabbery ( after all how coulda highly skilled artist which such works be a completely unbenevolent taskmaster). It is just an example of different teaching styles--which there are many, some are more consumable to the western red-necked mind than others.

 

[markyscott]

I don't intimately know Boon but his style of teaching is well known--and clearly produces well-versed soldiers. It seems as if the master/ minion format has worked for him and tough ruler-knuckle-smashing submission is appealing to a slice of the massive demographic of his area. I suppose this is a traditionally expected approach for many accolades but I'd say there are a lot of westerners who privately have fantasied about beating-up their old tyrant 4th-grade gym teachers and will not respond to pseudo autocratic dictators and tend to either be turned off or revolt, turn over the benches and start everything on fire. I know I always carry a lighter just in case. Luckily, for those that can afford travel and study, there has evolved a pretty broad spectrum of stylistic teachers here in the US---but of course, paid video work is rising to be the springboard of teaching and hopefully a money stream for the professionals so they can stay home and become regional experts instead of misspeaking generalists hack-daddies.

Not my experience at all. As a teacher, Boon has his strengths and weaknesses as do we all, but I don’t consider him to be dictatorial.

S

 

[Minky]

This has been a great thread. Its a mile wide and deep so not going to reference any specific comments but want to share an observation.

Sometimes to solve a problem or at least develop an approach you need to step outside of it. Instruction, no matter how it is delivered needs to “rain down on receptive soil” ( thats us ). Here is where the subtle disconnect occurs. If my EXPECTATIONS are not inline with my skill ( this never happens, eh? ), then I am unable to hear what you are really saying. In a twisted way, basic customer service.

How many of us really knew what we were getting into and the timescale? Months are Minutes, Years are Days. It is not a casual pursuit. I have read that some consider bonsai “settled science” and I am not confirming or arguing that but assume it is basically true. What needs to be honed and adapted in any method of instruction is the management of expectations.

If we can pull that off, less disappointment and more participation.

 

[sorce]

“settled science”

It IS a settled science.

Everyone is right.

But if you look into it.

Everyone is also wrong.

What that tells me, is everyone is working with some right and some wrong.

I am on a mission to find out what is ALL right.

No one has that figured out yet. Not here.

Sure we all have systems that work for us.

That's why everyone feels it's necessary to argue their way is right.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

I don't intimately know Boon but his style of teaching is well known--and clearly produces well-versed soldiers. It seems as if the master/ minion format has worked for him and tough ruler-knuckle-smashing submission is appealing to a slice of the massive demographic of his area. I suppose this is a traditionally expected approach for many accolades but I'd say there are a lot of westerners who privately have fantasied about beating-up their old tyrant 4th-grade gym teachers and will not respond to pseudo autocratic dictators and tend to either be turned off or revolt, turn over the benches and start everything on fire. I know I always carry a lighter just in case. Luckily, for those that can afford travel and study, there has evolved a pretty broad spectrum of stylistic teachers here in the US---but of course, paid video work is rising to be the springboard of teaching and hopefully a money stream for the professionals so they can stay home and become regional experts instead of misspeaking generalists hack-daddies.

It is very evident you don’t know Boon or his teaching style. You just posted a libelous post, and a full retraction is the honorable thing for you to do.

A student of Boon has won an award at EVERY National Exhibition. He is in high demand by his students across the country, in Australia, and in Thailand. He invented the “Intensive” method of bonsai education here in the USA, which has be copied (with minor variations) by other notable bonsai artists such as Ryan Neil, Bjorn Bjornham, and Michael Hagedorn.

To post something like that, even in jest, is highly disrespectful for someone who has dedicated his life to promoting bonsai, and rather than simply produce high end bonsai and sell for profit, Boon prefers to see his students learn to create and excel in the bonsai hobby!

Shame on you Crust! I truly expect better from someone like you.

 

[bwaynef]

This does not surprise me--and it encouraging to hear. My exaggerated high-drama explanation is just based on blabbery ( after all how coulda highly skilled artist which such works be a completely unbenevolent taskmaster). It is just an example of different teaching styles--which there are many, some are more consumable to the western red-necked mind than others.

What exactly is an example of different teaching styles: the style you've attributed to Boon, or Boon's actual teaching style? The twain don't mix, nor do I think they should rightfully be intermingled in a discussion like this.

 

[sorce]

Damn!

And here I thought Crust was going to get away with this innocent endeavor of words!

Especially after it was explained!

If there is someone very easy to understand via trees, posts, mentors....
It's Crust.

Do we have no Sense?

You know what I heard recently that I truely don't like.....

Oh oh...it passive aggressive....! Ha!

"I won't work with you no more cuz someone else touched the tree I was working on." , Heresay of Boon yet to be confirmed.

Talk real then talk real.

That's girly. Straight up.

Sorce

 

[crust]

It is very evident you don’t know Boon or his teaching style. You just posted a libelous post, and a full retraction is the honorable thing for you to do.

A student of Boon has won an award at EVERY National Exhibition. He is in high demand by his students across the country, in Australia, and in Thailand. He invented the “Intensive” method of bonsai education here in the USA, which has be copied (with minor variations) by other notable bonsai artists such as Ryan Neil, Bjorn Bjornham, and Michael Hagedorn.

To post something like that, even in jest, is highly disrespectful for someone who has dedicated his life to promoting bonsai, and rather than simply produce high end bonsai and sell for profit, Boon prefers to see his students learn to create and excel in the bonsai hobby!

Shame on you Crust! I truly expect better from someone like you.

Your right, I am bad. He is clearly an accomplished and highly successful teacher. My point was no slant to an individual but only that different teaching styles.

 

[bwaynef]

Your right, I am bad. He is clearly an accomplished and highly successful teacher. My point was no slant to an individual but only that different teaching styles.

Its unfortunate that you used the name of someone who is categorically not what you depicted as the example.

 

[crust]

What exactly is an example of different teaching styles: the style you've attributed to Boon, or Boon's actual teaching style? The twain don't mix, nor do I think they should rightfully be intermingled in a discussion like this.

I suppose I could go on about different teaching styles but then I would be torn limb from limb. As to the individual pros styles, my experience is limited to impressions only which means I should really bow out however when we examine the state of teaching and or the state of success or failure of the Bonzo state, we can hold the pros only half responsible--the other half is us.

 

[sorce]

If you follow the @Smoke and @Adair M fights, you get the idea that's how Boon is.

That's how I got the idea.

That's how Adair makes it sound.

Just saying.

Sorce

 

[M. Frary]

I am on a mission to find out what is ALL right

Look no further.
I'm here.

And I'm always right.

 

[Calnicky]

Chipping in with my experiences here: I currently live in Seattle and so have access to both the Puget Sound Bonsai Association and Pacific Bonsai Museum and Bonsai Northwest. Have had a great experience in my 6-7 years of being in the hobby. Hosting a study group in my garage has been invaluable. If you are shy and have trouble meeting people in a group just persist and get involved in a study group, collecting trip (rocks/trees), workshops, volunteer for a show, whatever... just do it! I met great people on rock collecting trips, at the convention in Olympia, and in workshops, and have learned a ton about bonsai. The videos and blogs online help too, but nothing suffices for interacting with people who have more (or even) less experience than you do.

Something my club emphasizes is getting even fairly beginner bonsai-ists to volunteer as docents at shows. No matter what you don't know...you know more than the general public. And you get to hang with others who are volunteering.

I will soon move to a fairly small town that does not have a club or other group (that I'm aware of) although it does have a plethora of artistic types. I plan to start a study group of my own - my neighbor in the new town is getting interested in bonsai - and I will find others too. The nearest bonsai club will be a 45 minute drive and my old club will be 2.5 hours away. Maybe we'll eventually have a club here too.

Bonsai has a steep learning curve but you have to persist. And then one day you realize you're caught. I almost quit a few times but I guess the hook was set and I couldn't quite get off the line! Now I'm just obsessed. Oh well. Hobbies and interests are good for your mental health.

 

[Owen Reich]

This has been a great thread. Its a mile wide and deep so not going to reference any specific comments but want to share an observation.

Sometimes to solve a problem or at least develop an approach you need to step outside of it. Instruction, no matter how it is delivered needs to “rain down on receptive soil” ( thats us ). Here is where the subtle disconnect occurs. If my EXPECTATIONS are not inline with my skill ( this never happens, eh? ), then I am unable to hear what you are really saying. In a twisted way, basic customer service.

How many of us really knew what we were getting into and the timescale? Months are Minutes, Years are Days. It is not a casual pursuit. I have read that some consider bonsai “settled science” and I am not confirming or arguing that but assume it is basically true. What needs to be honed and adapted in any method of instruction is the management of expectations.

If we can pull that off, less disappointment and more participation.

Fully agree. American bonsai customers have unrealistic expectations overall for what they should get out of a regular work day on bonsai as well as at a bonsai exhibition. Many think they are creating blue chip stock options from home despot plant material . There are those that can do it and are; 5-6 of them are making trees with / for me, but not from home despot stock. These serious students are capitalist foraging their way to bonsai stock bliss. Works really well when the consumers we teach bring worthy material to trade for instruction. It’s feels better to barter.
In the photo below are some good bonsai by western standards. I’d consider 3-4 to be so. The rest are still rough stock or “pre-bonsai”. I prefer poten-sai.

Understanding where your material actually sits on the quality spectrum is pretty important, and many in this world are delusional; referring exclusively to classical bonsai.

 

[0soyoung]

Understanding where your material actually sits on the quality spectrum is pretty important, and many in this world are delusional; referring exclusively to classical bonsai.

How do you teach this to your students?
What is a good bonsai as opposed to 'potensai'?
What are the traits/characteristics of a good bonsai?

Everybody talks about 'good material' but no one defines what it is.
Do you do this in any of your classes, Owen?

Do you do anything like show some examples of each and point out just what makes it poor, challenging, or good material?

 

[sorce]

Everything should have a rough level attached to it.

Ok, good, great. Perhaps.

And amount of years till showable or "finished" attached.
1-50 maybe.

And the percentage you may mess it up, that roughly equates to difficulty of species.

Ok-16-50%
Great-5-2%
Good-37-15%

Sorce

 

[Owen Reich]

How do you teach this to your students?
What is a good bonsai as opposed to 'potensai'?
What are the traits/characteristics of a good bonsai?

Everybody talks about 'good material' but no one defines what it is.
Do you do this in any of your classes, Owen?

Do you do anything like show some examples of each and point out just what makes it poor, challenging, or good material?

Good material has options. Good material has a feeling of age or if young, the right stuff in the right places more so than problems to fix. A $500 pre-bonsai should not have more problems than positive attributes for example.

I’ve been teaching students how to pick material since I returned. There’s a material selection article I wrote for American Bonsai Society Journal (about 3-4 years ago but not sure). Probably done material selection presentations half a hundred times; generally at the request of the program director.

It’s all relative. Good for your ability and resourcefulness level. Now, I think about 10% of the bonsai I see hold my attention for long. When I started, if I had a whip or something suitable for bonsai with no training, I was excited. Also almost a 20 year difference as well.

 

[jimib]

How do you teach this to your students?
What is a good bonsai as opposed to 'potensai'?
What are the traits/characteristics of a good bonsai?

Everybody talks about 'good material' but no one defines what it is.
Do you do this in any of your classes, Owen?

Do you do anything like show some examples of each and point out just what makes it poor, challenging, or good material?

I was in a study group led by Owen. The others in the group were a lot more advanced than me and I felt I was in over my head, although he didn’t make me feel that way. I brought a Sharps Pygmy with a horrendous nebari. and a trunk that had 0 character and was similar to a pretzel rod. Owen showed me some options with planting angles but ultimately it just wasn’t good stock. He took the time to point out the flaws in the tree, why they were flaws, and what I should be looking for when buying stock. I learned a lot from that group..

 

[Silva_Aeternam]

Hi new guy here (been reading this forum for quite a while though).

Quantifying and standardising an art-form equals stagnation and sterility, followed by the slow death of academia..

Music, painting, literature etc. are prime examples of this.

Having solid horticultural knowledge should always be the initial step which is inherently scientific and quantifiable aspect of bonsai practition.

Then we should just encourage the exchange between different schools of thought to bring the pluralism that every art-form needs to stay alive and thriving and not engage in petty divisions.

Making something accessible should not mean watering down its values and just commercialising / profiting just to as that will be at its detriment.

Personal relationship between masters and students, as well as in clubs. Practice in solitude and patience along with getting to understand nature and yourself through art.

That's what makes making bonsai interesting, enjoyable and worthy to explore I believe and should not end up in the production line of a factory/university.

Just my two cents...

 

[Adair M]

Hi new guy here (been reading this forum for quite a while though).

Quantifying and standardising an art-form equals stagnation and sterility, followed by the slow death of academia..

Music, painting, literature etc. are prime examples of this.

Having solid horticultural knowledge should always be the initial step which is inherently scientific and quantifiable aspect of bonsai practition.

Then we should just encourage the exchange between different schools of thought to bring the pluralism that every art-form needs to stay alive and thriving and not engage in petty divisions.

Making something accessible should not mean watering down its values and just commercialising / profiting just to as that will be at its detriment.

Personal relationship between masters and students, as well as in clubs. Practice in solitude and patience along with getting to understand nature and yourself through art.

That's what makes making bonsai interesting, enjoyable and worthy to explore I believe and should not end up in the production line of a factory/university.

Just my two cents...

You obviously put a lot of thought into your post. I’ve read it three times!

What are you trying to say?