Hello I recently

[Austin]

Sorry Austin, but I'm a big indoor grower and from what I see from your picture of your light setup, not much is going on.

You've got CFLs, which aren't usually best to use in indoor lighting situations because regular fluorescents are much more effective. The lights are also a bit too far above the plants to be of any benefit to them. They should be much, much closer, practically touching the tops of the trees.

I actually have a light meter, and yes CFLs are pretty much useless unless your about half inch to quarter inch away, that light bar is one built for doing craft shows I had it on hand when I hastily put this whole project together. The only thing I really looked at was the science behind dormancy everything else was secondary.

however sunlight through the window this time of year is no stronger than those CFLs at 1 foot according to my light intensity meter.

I intend to invest in LED lights once I have solidified how I want continue growing bonsai.

but What type of light source do you use? or suggest as a 3 foot strip of blue wavelength LED's is about 100 bucks.

(Blue and green wavelengths are the only waves ustilised by plants the coulr green absordbs those waves best hence why leaves are green)

 

[Austin]

"I will restate I'm not deriving the "proven" statement from my experience alone, but from a number of articles I posted links to, a book I purchased and read and various other forum posts I found on the web that I saw no need to save the links too. No one along the line how ever said doing it was easy.

One article I remember reading was about an elderly lady who had wintered a maple for five years successfully in a window sill she would block off to keep cool during the winter, she lived in an apartment complex in new york city. In the thread they explained to her about using her refrigerator instead as it would keep a more steady temp the thread ended after that bit of info.

That thread is what convinced me to look deeper into the science of plants and dormancy.

after that there was a man who did the fridge thing in thailand with a ginko tree for 3 years then the thread ended. "


All well and good. Hats off for the research.

However, this really proves nothing, unless you can actually show how all those plants wound up. I have a feeling there's a reason the ginko thread ended after three years...That's about how long a ginko can probably limp along without a dormancy.

Putting a plant in a refrigerator doesn't produce dormancy. It shocks it into stillness. Dormancy, as you know, is not driven by air temperatures, but by shortening day length. In more equatorial countries like Thailand, those days may, or may not, provide enough signal to a temperate plant to begin the four or five month process to prepare for winter.

Wintering a maple for five years on a windowsill probably produces several degrees of "successful" dormancy. It is a stressful location with wildly fluctuating temperatures. Again, the ability of a plant to successfully continue for say, a decade, in those conditions is not a given. Far from it.

All this doesn't mean you shouldn't continue to follow your desire to push the limits. By all means see what you can do.

It does mean, however, that a bit more critical thinking on the cons side of things might produce more insight into your project. Critical thinking of tried-and-true overwintering is not all out surrender to the more experimental side...

that was the conclusion I had about the ginko myself but, all articles I read actually stated it was the temperature and not light that resulted in dormancy. Articles by Forestry organizations and horticulturists not just forums, have you looked at any of the links I posted form my email conversation with myself? there is some interesting information there.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

I actually have a light meter, and yes CFLs are pretty much useless unless your about half inch to quarter inch away, that light bar is one built for doing craft shows I had it on hand when I hastily put this whole project together. The only thing I really looked at was the science behind dormancy everything else was secondary.

however sunlight through the window this time of year is no stronger than those CFLs at 1 foot according to my light intensity meter.

I intend to invest in LED lights once I have solidified how I want continue growing bonsai.

but What type of light source do you use? or suggest as a 3 foot strip of blue wavelength LED's is about 100 bucks.

(Blue and green wavelengths are the only waves ustilised by plants the coulr green absordbs those waves best hence why leaves are green)

I personally use T5 lights, as LEDs are still a bit too expensive for me.

Plants do not absorb green light, they reflect it ("hence why the leaves are green"). The wavelength at which chlorophyll works best is in the red and blue range.

 

[Austin]

Quote I once saw: "You can not educate someone that has already made up their mind"

Clearly after reading one book, some forums on the internet and having some plants alive for 3 months after being in a refridgerator for 2 months, you know more about trees than 2000+ years of bonsai practitioners, horticulture scientists, arborists, forestry scientists and over 200 million years of plant evolution could ever possibly know or reveal.


We look forward to seeing pictures of your trees in 5 years and beyond.
Good luck



/Ending my participation in this thread before my sarcasm meter goes further off the deep end.

lol thank you and I don't know that this will work, just all the research I've looked at says on paper it will, practice as we all should know by now is another storey. Also not all my trees spent time in the fridge only half of them did, the others whent from one month of cold weather to 70-80 temps and 5 out of 10 lived, out of the ones that whent in the fridge I have 2 and I have 3 of the ones that did not spend an extra month in the fridge.

and like I have said a few times it's actually the horticulturists that say you only need so many hours at 32-45 degree temps to have a proper dormant period, wich says nothing about me know more than anyone the fact that I can quote some information does not make me intelligent, it's what I do with said information that would determine intelligence.

 

[Austin]

I personally use T5 lights, as LEDs are still a bit too expensive for me.

Plants do not absorb green light, they reflect it ("hence why the leaves are green"). The wavelength at which chlorophyll works best is in the red and blue range.

lol I didn't mean green I did mean blue and red

 

[Redwood Ryan]

lol I didn't mean green I did mean blue and red

Even so, plants don't absorb the green light


Long story short, the trees are going to die indoors. They're simply not meant for it and no amount of research is going to fix that. Try all you want, the plants will tire and, sadly, die.

 

[daygan]

all of them have been growing sense october, if you look at the offsite links (a hand ful of them will bring you to my image shack gallery where you can slideshow all of my plants pictures)

Cool. I'll have to take a look through that gallery.

oaks pines weeping willows and a tree I cannot identify

were these three all collected growing locally?

and as a matter of fact a tree can (not that they all ways do) survive for 2 years with inadequate to no dormancy be for it will die due to lack of dormancy.

Actually, I think what that paraphrased information means is that the tree survives for two years, but when it dies, it is the result of the lack of dormancy that it experienced during those two years, so after you've taken it past two years of inadequate dormancy, the likelihood that you can do anything to save it is close to zero. What I've read actually occurs is that the tree will go into a forced dormancy regardless of the time of year, and then never exit its dormant state. My understanding is that researchers are still uncertain of the exact environmental cues that would cause a tree to resume normal growth after such a forced dormancy. I have my own thoughts on this, but don't want to bunnytrail.

my research refferances I started to catalouge ...

Man, that's a lot of links! I do not have time to read through all of that

I have microwaved a plant befor to kill bugs on it, also microwaving dirt with seeds in it helps improve germination, found this out on accident while sertilizing dirt in the microwave accidentally had a juniper seed in my dirt.

Now that's funny

However there have been interesting points taken up here so far such as

What to do with the "inbetween time"

If I am to shorten winter to three months but am unable to bring the plants outside how do I keep them alive during that period in the fall when they need to be inside to prolong summer growing conditions.

Exactly. I think that's the biggest unknown for me at this point...

... but don't get upset if people who have tried a lot of what you're doing are a bit skeptical of what's been proven.

Yeah, I think skepticim is a natural reaction at this point, until we've seen a few (more than three) years of healthy growth.

... and truthfully the trees should not be kept inside permanently but I'm just suggesting about 2-3 months of being inside and growing, the rest of the time spent inside would be dormant time in a cooler and they would spend the spring and summer outdoors, just attempting to find a way to winter them without killing them, and I have made a complicated solution to a simple problem but theoretically would lengthen the growing season and guarantee a winter suitable for plants well out of my zone.

Yes, complicated, but it sounds like something worth trying.

It would also take three years to conclusively say "yes this works", but like I have said drawing from others attempts at similar methods it works.

It sounds like you have the right attitude here. I personally would extend that to five or more years. Because I'm lazy and don't want to sift through all your links, can you give me the links that you posted previously that mention temperate-zone trees growing successfully over the stretch of a number of years during which time they undergo two to three months of indoor growth each year?

... It does mean, however, that a bit more critical thinking on the cons side of things might produce more insight into your project. Critical thinking of tried-and-true overwintering is not all out surrender to the more experimental side...

Right. I think considering all of the factors that the trees might need to reproduce a growing environment that is as natural as possible is an ideal way to go about the experiment.

 

[october]

If you are following this thread closely and reading every bit, it may lead to madness.

Here is my formula..

Reading this entire thread = madness

I'm just having fun ... If it makes you happy to do what you are doing, by all means keep on. Just keep in mind that although these things (the plants) can't say..Hey, what are you doing to us or get us out of the microwave..They are still living things.

Rob

 

[Austin]

I believe some assumptions where made about the information I was trying to put forth.

I am the type of human being that is willing to give you as much effort as you are willing to put forth yourself, with all assumptions aside, But if you have nothing constructive for me I really don't care because I like to argue on the internet as much as the next guy.

that being said I'm going to ramble for hopefully the last time.

According to months of sifting through papers, articles, books, and reports that a plant that under goes some sort of hibernation has a temperature that it needs and too cold will kill it.

Hence forth a small potted plant outdoors under MY environmental conditions would freeze quite easily, yes burring them in the snow works, as do wood chips. However I would like to grow plants from outside of my area so to find out the kill point of these outside species would make or break this.

having looked it over for about three and a half months I discovered something like a crepe merytle can withstand temps down to 0 outside in winter in cold areas.

but 0 seems like a drop off point for all bonsai trees in tiny pots

I have many similar plant species that live in similar zones and looked at the average overall winter lows and highs where.

I came up with this zone 5-6 Lows -20 and -15 for extreme low, can anyone confirm this living in these areas?

average high was 0 and +5.

This october around the 1st or 2'nd I started taking cuttings off a dieing willow tree we had planted in the yard 10 years ago, very sorry looking bushy nasty little...anyways. In an attempt to propagate it I thought why not start some cuttings over the winter and plant them in the spring, so I put up lights.

then dig more plant research... -_-

came up with facts about lighting and what plants use for light turns out they only use certain wave lengths of certain colors 0_0

around the 430 nanometer wavelength Wich is Blue and around 470 nanometer wavelength which is true green soo light should function within that range 430-470

found out that those daylight 6500K spectrum bulbs kinda work to grow plants under so I put them over my cuttings.

Continued with some research and learned how to kill about half these cuttings, learned about potting soil..came up with something that works in the low 20-30% humidity room by the heater in front of the window, that swings wildly from 55 at night to sometimes 80 in full sun for about an hour or 4 a day if the suns out. on the cold days we struggle to 60, luckily the CFL's give off 180 degrees of heat, and the peat moss stored in the big wooden box heats everything from the bottom if only for two degrees.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30248&d=1359141674 (the plants on the right are my test subject blue berry bushes)

Stuff grew I took more cuttings, killed them by getting curious and repotting them from the moldy mess they started in.

I then decided to start some seeds over the long winter we'r about half done with it now..maybe about a 3'rd done I suppose.

and purchased

Koren Hornbeam, Japanese Maple, Trident Maple, Ginko, Japanese Black Pine, Japanese White Pine, Zelkova, Chinese Juniper.

plants that required cold, and only none would live in my zone, so how to keep all of these happy together, Emulate a winter environment they are used too, now how to do this safely
where tmepratures from day to day change 40 degrees in average lows on extreme cases unpredictable almost allways. How do we not kill these... -_- more research..

lead to the trigger of the dormancy phase and what that phase of a plants life really is.

We have grown all summer, and stored all this extra starch (sap) and it's getting cold outside, our roots wont freeze let move it there so we don't explode.

this process is said to be triggered by the temperature dropping below 50 degrees on a steadily increasing infrequence farther apart at first but then rapidly closing together. so we as trees start to store some sap in our roots, but then one night WHAM! it's 40 degrees, we best hurry freezing is on the way, so we stop enjoying this lovely sun we've been having and turn colors and drop leaves after we have taken what juices we can out of them, slowly the majority of our sap is sent to our roots. Where it won turn to a solid and make us EXPLODE. ( I know I know they wouldn't but it's more fun )

So as a saftey Trees preform this migration of juice during templates between 45-32 degrees, Each tree needs a specific amount of time to do so that is pre programmed genetically after millions of years of living in it's favorite weather.

Not being able to prevent these trees from freezing solid in winter I thought that having an extended growing season would be nice, soo to test this I walked out to the wood end of october after finding our weather had stuck within the range of 32-45 degrees given the few 60 days so a whole 30 days of perfect weather for plants to go about the dormancy phase wich takes a set amount of time to perform, that time in my area happens to be about 24 days, makes snese we only have a month long fall befor winter sets in, soo all these little three I yanked out of the ground like weeds should be bale to wake up, as nothing happens in he plant once the sap has entered the root system, all but the most vital functions just stop and wait until it starts to warm up again.

Meaning every plant in my woods only NEEDS 1 month of cold to satisfy it's wintering needs.
the plants woke up that I had not decided to put in the fridge much to my surprise, so I took out the other ones. and it took roughly a month for the plants to wake up and open some buds.

same with the ones I took out of the fridge except the ones that I packed moss around instead of dirt...as a result they froze solid and never woke from sleep.

all these plants in the fridge where in plastic bags with dirt or moss.

Finally after reading for months on end about how plants work for winter I figured I could build a cool like freezer isle case that would use outside air to cool the case down to fall temps for a month, then go down to 0 ish for a month then back to erly spring temps, then after a month of that have bud break, now to do this I need to bring my plants inside around the end of September, let them get used to being in the freezer lookin thing at room temp. Then start dropping it when the plants start to look sad, should be the end of october, turn on the cases cooling fans and start fall weather, this would put fall color inside right after we get our first foot or so of snow.

Now it's looking like maybe I will need to stretch the cold part of winter out in the case so the plants don't have to spend another month awake inside the case, but I do want an early bud break, this should add 2 months in all to my plants growing season, and being I control how cold the case gets all winter I do not need to worry about them freezing under a pile of pine bark being eaten by rabbits on the edge of my yard.

all in all what I took away from it was that a plant needs it's dormancy to induce it you just cool it, as long as it stays cold it stays dormant. If I am to extend the growing season Lighting becomes an issue, so hang some lights in the case.

some people seem to believe I intend to keep these plants inside year round. I am not that nieve (but I still can't spell) and if my idea to extend the growing season doesn't work I then let them fall asleep naturally, take them to the case and cool them in a controlled environment, then reintroduce them to the outdoors as would any of you.

I am the type of human being that is willing to give you as much effort as you are willing to put forth yourself, with all assumptions aside.

hope that adds to the insanity but do we understand each other a little better?

and does anyone have a good successful way to safely winter over plants from outside thier zones that experiance a good solid month of -30 weather, someone sent me an article about the alska method but I have no idea what he was growing I did not see it in the article.

Air flow chart sketch and rough design

 

[daygan]

... someone sent me an article about the alska method but I have no idea what he was growing I did not see it in the article.

The author suggests that this method could be a solution for the many whose "trees are only frost hardy to approximately -10ºC but cannot be overwintered in an artificially heated environment." So, he's suggesting that most of the more typical temperate zone bonsai species would winter well using this method. He also says that " the ground temp always remains steady at -3ºC to -4ºC. " Finally, he gives us some clues as to what trees the enthusiast in Alaska uses when he quotes him as saying "It's critical to protect the trees (particularly maples and birch, though pines do not appear to be as appetizing) with wire mesh." So, Chris, in Alaska, probably has maples, birch, and pines, and maybe other species not mentioned.

 

[Austin]

I guess I took more away from thsi atricle posted by RockM http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/dormancy.htm

when I read the alaskan method and the above article at the same time, got wraped up in the fact that his own link reinforced my idea rather than his..

the only real reason to build something like my case idea would be to give your plants extra growing season, otherwise winter with bark chips, as I do not get much snow mostly just cold

 

[Austin]

Alright over the last week I made an indoor greenhouseish thing, for about 100 bucks with, 6 4 foot T8 fixtures, makes for 12 bulbs in all.

all I did was buy some of that steel racking stuff on sale for 34 bucks, it's 7 feet tall 48 inches wide and 18inches deep, paid 8 bucks for some 3 mill plastic sheeting I covered threes side of the shelving with, keeps humidity around 30-40% and temps between 70-85 degrees.

so my operating temp on my light bulbs whent from 200 degrees down to 100 allowing me to get my ligths closer.

looks like it'l do much better than the set up I put pictures up of.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Alright over the last week I made an indoor greenhouseish thing, for about 100 bucks with, 6 4 foot T8 fixtures, makes for 12 bulbs in all.

all I did was buy some of that steel racking stuff on sale for 34 bucks, it's 7 feet tall 48 inches wide and 18inches deep, paid 8 bucks for some 3 mill plastic sheeting I covered threes side of the shelving with, keeps humidity around 30-40% and temps between 70-85 degrees.

so my operating temp on my light bulbs whent from 200 degrees down to 100 allowing me to get my ligths closer.

looks like it'l do much better than the set up I put pictures up of.

But then you still run into the issue of dormancy. These are not tropical trees, they'll be cooked in a tropical environment like you've created. They just aren't meant to live indoors.

 

[Austin]

they where picked after thier dormancy was fulfilled.

the rest of the trees are cuttings or seedlings I decided to start over winter.

remember most trees only need 1000 hours (41.66 days) of dormancy to continue their cycle.

some plants like blue berries only need 200 hours.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

they where picked after thier dormancy was fulfilled.

the rest of the trees are cuttings or seedlings I decided to start over winter.

remember most trees only need 1000 hours (41.66 days) of dormancy to continue their cycle.

some plants like blue berries only need 200 hours.

So then what is the purpose of this? Just to do this for one season since they'll all have to go back outdoors if they survive?

 

[daygan]

So then what is the purpose of this? Just to do this for one season since they'll all have to go back outdoors if they survive?

I'm pretty sure the point was to experiment with allowing the trees to complete their dormancy period earlier than they would in his natural environment, and care for them indoors during the interim period until outside spring temperatures reached acceptable warmth, at which point he would put them outside to continue growing. This process could hopefully be repeated each year, if successful.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

I'm pretty sure the point was to experiment with allowing the trees to complete their dormancy period earlier than they would in his natural environment, and care for them indoors during the interim period until outside spring temperatures reached acceptable warmth, at which point he would put them outside to continue growing. This process could hopefully be repeated each year, if successful.

I suppose so, I just really don't understand the point of forcing trees that have no reason being inside to fight to survive.

 

[Austin]

plants have to fight to survive period, animals eat them it gets hot, it gets cold they get stepped on, crushed by snow and so forth they are well adapted to survive almost any natural disaster and unnatural disasters such as radiation.

with that being said, where I live it usually during summer does not make it much higher than 50% humidity, I have maintained a decent 30-40% with the new indoor green house infront of a window the length of the unit, with supplemental lighting.

similar temps 60-80 degrees (equivalent to our summer months aside from the two whole weeks of 90's we get a year)

and the goal with the entire project is like daygen said to lengethen the growing season and emulate about a zone 6-7 winter that all the species of plants I have started can happily live together in.

also doing the study of enviromnets and dormancy requirements I found that really 2-3 months of winter at moderate temps 32-45 if more than enough for a plant to happily do it's winter thing and wake up the following spring. Not only did I test it on a handful of local plants this year but there is tons of research that states the same thing. Google "chill hours".

now sense winters where I live are harsh and cold and we finally after our cold snap made it to a foot of snow (first time in almost three years) insulating my plants with snow is not a reliable option.

so I intendt to build a refrigerator thingy that cools with outside air inside of my house so I can effectively bring my plants in just befor october, and let them sit inside for about a month maybe longer depending on how warm it is until outdoor temps can consistantly keep the area cold. then turn on the cooling fans and let them turn fall colour inside of my living room year after year. also giving them a head start on spring by turning the unit off about a month befor our last frost.

From what I can tell so far is that 3 months would be easy to keep them alive indoors with supplimental light and a minimal amount of air movement. I intend to only let them be indoors for 2 months a year while awake.

but I think I can safely push it to three if weather does not permit in spring.

this winter I will have trees that have made it a whole 5 months indoors (depending on what survives but appears promising with the new light set up the leaves are no longer getting larger and have gotten a nice dark green in a week of new lighting instead of the yellowish green they where)


The local plants I will accumulate this spring will be left outdoors for winter with the exception of the ones I have indoors now they will be my control group.

the non native specimens I am starting from seed this year (started) will spend winters in the case.

does this make more sense to you now red wood?

and thank you daygen

 

[Austin]

I suppose so, I just really don't understand the point of forcing trees that have no reason being inside to fight to survive.

one thing I found about forcing plants to live in extremes just on the edge of their except able habitat (low light low humidity high wind restricted space) produces a dwarfed plant by itself without any pruning. with a tougher trunk but does look way more spindly.

however this is what I want, my goal is to do a number of forest plantings as small (height wise) as possible a year to three down the road.

there is a means to an end here even if the people of the forum do not see it that way.

 

[october]

one thing I found about forcing plants to live in extremes just on the edge of their except able habitat (low light low humidity high wind restricted space) produces a dwarfed plant by itself without any pruning. with a tougher trunk but does look way more spindly.

however this is what I want, my goal is to do a number of forest plantings as small (height wise) as possible a year to three down the road.

there is a means to an end here even if the people of the forum do not see it that way.

Hello Austin.. In regards to dwarfing plants by exposing them to harsh conditions. There are some horticultural facts you need to know. Although harsh conditions like with holding water, lack of light and other harsh conditions dwarf a plant. In nature, this is not a 1 or 2 season process. In nature, this can create nice bonsai material naturally over a period of 30-50 or even 100 years. Also, in bonsai culture, you never deprive a young plant of what it needs. The tree needs to be feed well, given lots of light and care. Then when the tree is strong and more mature, then it is ready to begin it's bonsai training.

One more important bit of information. Depriving a tree of what it needs to create certain characteristics, is somewhat outdated. Today we have time framed and specific pruning techniques for that.

Rob

Rob