Eisei-En summer sale

[Paradox]

For you @Paradox you keep talking about you cant find anything, well this place is a 3 hour drive from you I just checked on google

Uh....Where do you think I live?
I live in Southampton Town, NEW YORK, USA
Not Southampton, England

I would drive 3 hours for material like that. Ive driven further.

 

[BobbyLane]

Uh....Where do you think I live?
I live in Southampton Town, NEW YORK, USA
Not Southampton, England

Says Long island New york on your profile. There is another chap on Long Island who posts European horbeams and Beeches on here.
Ya'll just playin dumb now
Have a nice day !!

 

[Paradox]

Says Long island New york on your profile. There is another chap on Long Island who posts European horbeams and Beeches on here.
Ya'll just playin dumb now
Have a nice day !!

OK I misread your post as YOU had found that material.
Yea I dont know where that is.

The thread you are refering to @BobbyLane is someone in New Jersey and they dont post where they bought that tree exactly.
3 hours doesnt even get me out of New York and depending on where in NJ, it could be up to another 2-3 hours

 

[BobbyLane]

OK I misread your post as YOU had found that material.
Yea I dont know where that is.

The thread you are refering to @BobbyLane is someone in New Jersey and they dont post where they bought that tree exactly.
3 hours doesnt even get me out of New York and depending on where in NJ, it could be up to another 2-3 hours

Go there now!

 

[Shogun610]

@Matte91 look what you have done , are you happy now lol

 

[rockm]

OK I misread your post as YOU had found that material.
Yea I dont know where that is.

The thread you are refering to @BobbyLane is someone in New Jersey and they dont post where they bought that tree exactly.
3 hours doesnt even get me out of New York and depending on where in NJ, it could be up to another 2-3 hours

Depending on where you live on L.I. it can take hours just to drive off the island itself. Montauk, at the eastern end, is about 116 miles from NYC and the New Jersey line. (London to Birmingham in U.K. terms)

 

[R0b]

The main thing is people like Björn and Ryan sell at a premium because they can. If people are willing to pay that price online without having the tree in hand they are either naive or have too much money, nei is my problem.

There are many regular nurseries near me, a big bonsai importer two hours driving and The Trophy (probably the biggest bonsai event in Europe) yearly around the corner. The best opportunity for buying trees I find is the Trophy. More traders means more competition and interesting prices. I understand most people don’t have the luxury of big bonsai event within driving distance. An alternative would be joining a club where you can access a network of hobbyists that have more trees than they can manage and sell at some point. So it all depends where you live, who you know, how much time you can spend searching and how much money you have.

To prove my point two Hinoki 10 and 30€ and less than a year in development.

 

[Paradox]

Depending on where you live on L.I. it can take hours just to drive off the island itself. Montauk, at the eastern end, is about 116 miles from NYC and the New Jersey line. (London to Birmingham in U.K. terms)

Yup and I am pretty far east, much closer to Montauk that NYC proper. NYC limits is 85-90 miles from me.
If no traffic, I can get off the Island in 2-2.5 hours, if traffic, it can be 4 hours or more

 

[rockm]

The main thing is people like Björn and Ryan sell at a premium because they can. If people are willing to pay that price online without having the tree in hand they are either naive or have too much money, nei is my problem.

There are many regular nurseries near me, a big bonsai importer two hours driving and The Trophy (probably the biggest bonsai event in Europe) yearly around the corner. The best opportunity for buying trees I find is the Trophy. More traders means more competition and interesting prices. I understand most people don’t have the luxury of big bonsai event within driving distance. An alternative would be joining a club where you can access a network of hobbyists that have more trees than they can manage and sell at some point. So it all depends where you live, who you know, how much time you can spend searching and how much money you have.

To prove my point two Hinoki 10 and 30€ and less than a year in development.

"The main thing is people like Björn and Ryan sell at a premium because they can. If people are willing to pay that price online without having the tree in hand they are either naive or have too much money, nei is my problem."

Horseshit...Ryan and Bjorn sell at the high end because THERE'S DEMAND for the advanced material they're producing (and not really importing as much as they selling native species). People are willing to pay for higher end stock because they appreciate it --Europe has no comparative material in such quantity and affordability--simple fact of geography. Walter Pall is importing North America yamadori for God's sake.

And GOOD FOR THEM. Their activity tends to trickle down in the broader U.S. bonsai market. Their activity and the activities of other Japanese-trained masters (for lack of a better term) working in the U.S. has driven extremely good material across the board. They're also driven a deeper, broader understanding of what bonsai is and how it's done. Having seen that evolution first-hand over the last few decades, I applaud their work and the people working with them. I certainly can't afford one of those high end trees, but the trees I can afford are of exponentially better quality than 20 years ago. Same for peripheral product and accessory availability. I can get three kinds of sealer, or kanuma in four different places. I can get excellent quality bonsai pots made in the west or imported from Japan because of increasing demand by more knowledgeable bonsai people.

And FWIW, club are one of the resources such people have impacted the most. We can get experts to come and teach (And bring great material with them to work on) at meetings. And they remain a great source of good to great material for everyone. Always have been.

 

[IzzyG]

@BobbyLane is right; you can definitely find deals elsewhere. Many of the other posters are also right; they can be difficult to find depending on where you are. Like many things in Bonsai; it depends.

However, one key point that no one has mentioned is the fact that even if the sale prices are “higher than you can find elsewhere”, buying from Bjorn or Ryan or Randy or Todd or Andy, etc. supports your American Bonsai artist/collector. I’ve gotten to know quite a few of them(and since I’m in the venture capital landscape, I openly discuss financials/organizational structure/exit strategies/valuations, etc. with them and have on multiple occasions been dead on as far as where their businesses stand financially). NONE of them are getting rich off this. Not even Ryan who seems to be the standard to mock/pick on for high prices. These folks are truly doing it for the love of the profession. Some even have higher aspirations(such as conservation work) that are beyond the field of Bonsai, but nonetheless improve all of our experiences. And let’s not forget the difficulties and cost(mentally, financially, etc.) that these same professionals have endured and continue to endure. I know of one professional personally who almost left the field because of the significant loss of material due to unexpected inclement weather this last winter. And of another who is preparing to leave the country due to the lack of ability to support their family.

Ultimately my point is simple; if you are able and willing to support these professionals, do so as a rising tide lifts all ships. If you are not able or not willing to, at least don’t assume negativity or nefarious reasonings for their (in your opinion) higher-than-it-should-be prices.

 

[Scorpius]

I wish Bjorn shipped. I really don't have time to drive down to the Nashville area. I'd pay for shipping and yes I know it's very expensive.

 

[Lorax7]

The only material I posted that come from a landscape nursery are the hornbeams. The others are from bonsai vendors. Personally I have done the bonsai vendor thing, over the years Ive spent a lot on trees from kaizenbonsai.com. my limit or the most I would spend is £345 for a tree. Im happy to go into a nursery and spend up to £295, would you be? or anybody else commenting a lot. Because for the folk who are saying the most, I have seen your stuff and I can see that youre not spending that on anything. The horbeam that cost £70 isnt the norm, but as said, im quite content to spend £295 on these big lumps and chop them down to stumps, which I know a lot of people wont do. I can turn that £295 into £585.

Go ahead and spend your money, if you see value in these sales dive in. Im just saying that I dont anymore, because I know whats out there. I used to spend a lot on kaizen when everyone was saying he's too expensive.

If you are claiming that hornbeam came from a landscape nursery already looking like the photo that you posted and cost £70, I call bullshit. If you really bought the tree for £70 in the state of development shown in the photo, then you had to go through the wardrobe to get there because the nursery is in freaking Narnia. If you're not claiming that and the photo is actually what the tree looked like 5, 10, 15 years later then you're being extremely disingenuous and comparing apples to oranges. Any vendor's prices are a reflection of what the product is worth today, not what it might be worth years later after the customer has held onto it and skillfully modified it.

I can't afford Bjorn's high-end material. I don't have the financial means. I've never paid more than $300 for any tree, ever. That's what I can afford. But, I've done enough drooling over high-end trees while window shopping online and in-person to have an idea of what the typical price range is for trees like that in the U.S. The fact of the matter is his prices are comparable to what other U.S. bonsai vendors like Brussels, Mirai, Wigerts, etc. charge for material of similar quality. It's not some Facebook scam sale where somebody buys nursery stock, does nothing to it besides sticking it in a bonsai pot, and then charges a fortune to uninformed buyers.

I have met Bjorn multiple times and it was crystal clear to me that he's 100% in the business because he's passionate about the art of little trees in containers. He's not in it for the money. Just take a look at all the YouTube educational content that he's been giving away for free for years. Sure, he's doing the Bonsai-U videos that he charges for now, but the guy has to make a living and keep the lights on at Eisei-en and no one should begrudge him that. I find it rather obnoxious that you're running your mouth off about his prices from the other side of the pond when you clearly don't know the U.S. bonsai market.

Your suggestion that we should all just go searching for buried treasure at local nurseries is insulting because you're assuming folks aren't already doing that, when every serious bonsai person I know has been doing exactly that for years. The overwhelming majority of my trees were nursery finds. I didn't just pick the first tree I saw. You have no idea how many trees I picked up and examined closely in order to find what I've got. Those trees are representative of the most promising bonsai material that was available in the landscape nurseries in my region. I have a few pre-bonsai purchased from a bonsai nursery. I wish I had more of those, but cost is prohibitive. It is what it is.

 

[pandacular]

this could've been a really interesting thread if we had discussed the trees

 

[nuttiest]

Its pretty clear that with many sellers youre not just paying for time and effort, you are also paying for name brand. To think youre only paying for time, with the quoted price tags on the maples would be a bit delusional.
I sold the big Zelkova for £1700 after having it less than 2 years

so either:
a) the buyer was lazy and stupid to buy something for $1700, if he would just look around he could find a diy for $70
b) you were over pricing the tree and making tons of money off a lazy person
c) neither, the tree was the right price at the nursery, and after styling and growing out was worth $1700 because of your time in.

collecting yamadori/ buying stock, watering, applying fertilizer, fungicide, styling, days months years... time in adds up to peanuts on most sales. Someone saving time/money by buying those years of other's work is no dummy.

 

[R0b]

Horseshit...Ryan and Bjorn sell at the high end because THERE'S DEMAND for the advanced material they're producing (and not really importing as much as they selling native species). People are willing to pay for higher end stock because they appreciate it --Europe has no comparative material in such quantity and affordability--simple fact of geography. Walter Pall is importing North America yamadori for God's sake.

And GOOD FOR THEM. Their activity tends to trickle down in the broader U.S. bonsai market. Their activity and the activities of other Japanese-trained masters (for lack of a better term) working in the U.S. has driven extremely good material across the board. They're also driven a deeper, broader understanding of what bonsai is and how it's done. Having seen that evolution first-hand over the last few decades, I applaud their work and the people working with them. I certainly can't afford one of those high end trees, but the trees I can afford are of exponentially better quality than 20 years ago. Same for peripheral product and accessory availability. I can get three kinds of sealer, or kanuma in four different places. I can get excellent quality bonsai pots made in the west or imported from Japan because of increasing demand by more knowledgeable bonsai people.

let’s keep it civil please

I’ve seen trees sold by both that I consider way overpriced for what they are. Their main quality being they were featured in a stream and styled by a well known and skilled artist.

examples the pot might be the bigger part of the value but those are also expensive

Blue Rug Juniper

This shohin blue rug juniper is the perfect starting point for a bonsai enthusiast. With a strong foundation and healthy root system, it is ready for its next steward to further it into becoming a stunning bonsai masterpiece. Species | Juniperus horizontalis Estimated Age | 10 years Time in...

goods.bonsaimirai.com

The maple Bobby critiqued

Japanese Maple #4 – Eisei-en

www.bjornbjorholm.com

The Chinese quinces

Chinese Quince #1 – Eisei-en

www.bjornbjorholm.com

I find the trees very expensive for what they are but like I said they are in a business and if they can make money this way good for them.

It might be that trees are more expensive in the US than in Europe and I know Tom’s pots are cheaper when I buy from him at the Trophy than what Ryan lists them for.

 

[rockm]

let’s keep it civil please

I’ve seen trees sold by both that I consider way overpriced for what they are. Their main quality being they were featured in a stream and styled by a well known and skilled artist.

examples the pot might be the bigger part of the value but those are also expensive

Blue Rug Juniper

This shohin blue rug juniper is the perfect starting point for a bonsai enthusiast. With a strong foundation and healthy root system, it is ready for its next steward to further it into becoming a stunning bonsai masterpiece. Species | Juniperus horizontalis Estimated Age | 10 years Time in...

goods.bonsaimirai.com

The maple Bobby critiqued

Japanese Maple #4 – Eisei-en

www.bjornbjorholm.com

The Chinese quinces

Chinese Quince #1 – Eisei-en

www.bjornbjorholm.com

I find the trees very expensive for what they are but like I said they are in a business and if they can make money this way good for them.

It might be that trees are more expensive in the US than in Europe and I know Tom’s pots are cheaper when I buy from him at the Trophy than what Ryan lists them for.

"Horseshit" is a civil American response when faced with silly Bullshit like this. Calling people who buy things you don't approve of "rich morons" (I paraphrase, but that's the basic gist of your comments--and don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining by denying it) is hardly civil.

 

[Jzack605]

@BobbyLane I have found good beech and hornbeam like what you’ve posted but it takes pretty extensive searching on Long Island. But none have been cheap. I would strongly advise against Beech as Beech Leaf Disease is bad here.

 

[R0b]

"Horseshit" is a civil American response when faced with silly Bullshit like this. Calling people who buy things you don't approve of "rich morons" (I paraphrase, but that's the basic gist of your comments--and don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining by denying it) is hardly civil.

Doesn’t sound civil to me especially with you latest addiction calling an argument silly is disrespectful. I am Dutch and generally regard Americans more polite and subtle than what you are displaying here.

 

[Hartinez]

this could've been a really interesting thread if we had discussed the trees

Happens all the time on here.

 

[Hartinez]

@BobbyLane is right; you can definitely find deals elsewhere. Many of the other posters are also right; they can be difficult to find depending on where you are. Like many things in Bonsai; it depends.

However, one key point that no one has mentioned is the fact that even if the sale prices are “higher than you can find elsewhere”, buying from Bjorn or Ryan or Randy or Todd or Andy, etc. supports your American Bonsai artist/collector. I’ve gotten to know quite a few of them(and since I’m in the venture capital landscape, I openly discuss financials/organizational structure/exit strategies/valuations, etc. with them and have on multiple occasions been dead on as far as where their businesses stand financially). NONE of them are getting rich off this. Not even Ryan who seems to be the standard to mock/pick on for high prices. These folks are truly doing it for the love of the profession. Some even have higher aspirations(such as conservation work) that are beyond the field of Bonsai, but nonetheless improve all of our experiences. And let’s not forget the difficulties and cost(mentally, financially, etc.) that these same professionals have endured and continue to endure. I know of one professional personally who almost left the field because of the significant loss of material due to unexpected inclement weather this last winter. And of another who is preparing to leave the country due to the lack of ability to support their family.

Ultimately my point is simple; if you are able and willing to support these professionals, do so as a rising tide lifts all ships. If you are not able or not willing to, at least don’t assume negativity or nefarious reasonings for their (in your opinion) higher-than-it-should-be prices.

Great post Izzy.