What are the best ways to create sustainable conditions in which bonsai trees will thrive?

[Deep Sea Diver]

"Leprous Garden, post: 986298, member: 26935"]

….Greetings to the discussion! Thank you for your thoughts. I’ll try to address these one by one ….

This whole discussion is very confused about the relationship between basic biological and ecological considerations and the "culture" of bonsai.

… not sure I would agree with that… I’m assuming you also come from an ecological/environment background from this statement and pleased to have you onboard in our discussion!

There's very little talk about what makes these things different.

… I think it’s fair to say we have frequently been discussing why and how a living system in a pot should/shouldn’t be considered different then a living system in one’s back yard or a forest etc.

The basics of plant biology are what they are, but there's nothing "natural" about bonsai.

…perhaps one might consider its this approach or mindset that is one of the key issues provoking this discussion?

The "bonsai system" in your pot isn't like a forest because you are making decisions about how it ought to be. A forest is a system that is (at least can be) sustainable because it isn't about "growing a big tree" or "growing a beautiful tree".

… Hmm…. just because bonsai hobbyists take many actions in their endeavor to try to craft a tree into a work of living art doesn’t change the fact that a single tree in soil in media in a pot is a living system.

….Imho it’s when folks lose sight of this fact and perform unsustainable actions (and there are many) to the tree is when their trees begin to run into trouble.

Bonsai will always be other than this because we don't just put a plant in a pot and then let whatever wants to happen in it happen.

…. Wondering…So (as one example) a yamadori isn’t a tree - pot - media system that the forces of nature exert control over?

…. just because a human puts a tree in a pot and develops a living system to support the trees growth ….then exerts external control on the system, doesn’t make the tree pot rhizosphere system unnatural or unsustainable . It’s just a living system in a pot.

Beyond this, OPs intention comes from two places:

… Please don’t be too sure to assume where my ‘motivations’ arise and I will do the same for you.

1) trying to understand exactly which specific conditions lead to the "optimal" performance of each plant

…. Yet isn’t this exactly what Ryan Neal and many other bonsai professionals have been working so very hard to do for multiple years?

….At least that’s what he’s been saying on Bonsai Mirai in his presentations..,

and 2) generalizing into a set of attributes for all plants to determine "sustainable success".

… I’m frankly perplexed at this statement. Thats because I see a generalized set of attributes later in this message stating all “plants will be "sustainable" so long as we keep them watered, fed and sunlit.”?

Based on his postings in other threads, I do take issue with some of the basis for this project. We know what a healthy plant looks like.

…. Interested…And which of my other 2700+ posts might you be generalizing about?

….Although I am actually very excited as another member on the forum that you have read all of my messages .

Nobody knows what a perfect plant looks like. The specific needs and preferences of some plants can't overcome what is basic about keeping a potted plant healthy: light, water, media, nutrients.

If your plant is growing, it's doing well

. …not so sure all plants that are growing are doing well is a valid statement

It does not matter if it's the "right" source of fertilizer or the "right" media. These plants will be "sustainable" so long as we keep them watered, fed and sunlit.

…. I’lll be willing to bet there are well over 250 posts a year on BN asking for help each year from folks that give their trees water, fertilizer and sunlight …only to see the tree languish, whither and die…

….I do appreciate your thoughts and the ability to share mine and look forward to hearing ways you can contribute to move this discussion ahead.

…..I hoping your thoughts were written to help move the discussion forward. I did ask earlier that responses be tough on the issues, but not on each other.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I think the type of ultimate sustainability you seek is akin to what you have seen at bonsai museum where a lot of effort goes to comprehensive care. In my past experience I have lost bonsai to several unexpected circumstance like vermin, a home/garden move, and setting up new overwintering spaces. I think my list of sustainable characteristics is more or less the resources that Pacific Bonsai Museum, or the national garden.

jfyi As a volunteer at the museum, I’m bound to only state general knowledge and avoid specifics.

One thing I can say is we are all learning new things about keeping bonsai in a condition that will balance the traditional aesthetic needs of the discipline with the need to keep each tree robust and resilient.

A dedicated space for your trees to live that you won't have to change when your family gets bigger
Presence of horticultural experts able to identify and remedy any problems
A plan for triage (quarantine areas, or different locations for prescribed treatments
No drastic changes
Decisions made in a committee type manner opposed to spontaneously

Some really nice points, especially like the appropriate location/dedicated space, triage, timing changes and being ready for the unexpected ideas! Thank you.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[ShadyStump]

I want to try and tackle these recurring statements that, "nothing about bonsai is natural," and do it in the most respectful and tactful way I can muster.

Define, "natural."
In the context of ancient philosophy, this is the great divide between cynical philosophers like the infamous Diogenese who felt that all things human were unnatural, and on one occasion when brought to trial in Athens for public masturbation responded saying, "if only I could sate my hunger by rubbing my belly," and then the stoics like Xeno and Marcus Aurelius who believe that the things humans are inclined to do can be assumed to be part of their nature just as the things plants and animals do are part of their nature.
In more existential philosophy, we can look at the spectrum of arguments between free will and determinism.
All this to say that there appears to be two distinct major schools of thought in the world of bonsai: there those who control the tree, and there are those who direct the tree.

The controllers often set down a drawing of what they want their tree to look like, often with estimated timelines, and planned steps to take at certain stages along that timeline. If a tree isn't turning out how they want it to, they will often get rid of it some how, or else go to great lengths to, in many ways, disassemble and reassemble the tree through techniques like grafting. They itemize and manipulate every facet of the trees growth as far as they have the ability to, and along the way are always attempting to emulate nature, but never give in to it. They set strict care regimens, and refuse to deviate from them except when emergency dictates otherwise. From their efforts we can gain some of the most technically stunning trees ever created, and in relatively short order, as well as new knowledge applicable to the craft.

The directors tend to take any tree that strikes their fancy, and look for what the tree is doing on its own, and try to anticipate it's next move, and use that help the tree grow in the most beautiful way possible. They look at the structure and imagine a story of the tree's life, and select branches and foliage for removal or adjustment in order to emulate that story. They tend toward cut and grow, less strict care regimens, and feel that they are engaging and cultivating nature with their trees. They are unafraid to pass their trees on, unfinished, to the next generation, but terrified of giving up on their trees. From them we find some of the most spectacular designs ever achieved, though they may never fully realize their potential.

I don't think that anyone can argue that these two disparate mindsets don't exist, though they might feel that one is superior to the other. And these philosophies exist on a spectrum, and are by no means mutually exclusive, nor exhaustive.
By the simple fact that they exist side by side here, and achieve equally amazing if different results, we must all admit that at the heart of bonsai is the effort to manage a tree's nature. If we are managing that nature, then the statement that there is nothing natural about bonsai is patently false, and I personally would prefer to never hear such a claim ever again in my life.

As for how this pertains to the greater discussion, we must all admit one thing: that we are working with an organism that has it's own nature, and that, like it or not, we're confined by some measure to what that organism gives us to work with.
That puts us all on the same page, and all we've left to do is decide which way we turn it.

 

[Paradox]

…. I’ll be willing to bet there are well over 250 posts a year on BN asking for help each year from folks that give their trees water, fertilizer and sunlight …only to see the tree languish, whither and die…

This is true but how many of those were the right parameters of water, fertilizer and sunlight. For example, how many were underwatered or overwatered, or in potting soil that stayed too wet.

Yes there will be situations where someone does everything right and the tree still dies
We are dealing with living things. Even the most healthy person that eats only healthy food and exercises gets sick and sometimes die.

There is no absolute bullet proof way to keep a tree alive. Only practices that improves your chances of doing so.

There is also no one set of parameters that fits all trees. The needs of a pine is different from the needs of a maple. So it just can't be oversimplified to just one set of things. New people have to go though the learning curve like we all do. However, new people today have a lot more information and resources in their reach than we did 20 or 30+ years ago.

I still believe though that the thing that is most paramount is health. Without health, a tree wont be able to be able to be sustained as a bonsai. Manage to keep your trees healthy and they can withstand and respond to standard bonsai techniques. Note by "standard" I include not overworking a tree and doing things at the proper time.

 

[a1dusty]

If we are managing that nature, then the statement that there is nothing natural about bonsai is patently false, and I personally would prefer to never hear such a claim ever again in my life.

Just a quick reply to this , a tree or shrub in a pot is not natural , that said if we do not try mimic that natural way the tree/shrub grow well never get a true healthy bonsai , if we force feed the bonsai then we must give them a rest to regain there natural strength, also even though I say bonsai is not the natural way , we all have come across a tree shrub in the wild stunted in growth due to root restriction and possibly due to the seed blowing far away and growing in an area not akin to the trees natural home are perfectly healthy just smaller , so our bonsai can grow in many different ways , but if the bonsai are not treated as close to natural as we can get, that tree will never naturally flourish properly , we can get quick results with graft etc , lots of those technics also happen in the wild , hence I/we are always attempting to mimic the bonsai’s natural home

 

[a1dusty]

I still believe though that the thing that is most paramount is health. Without health, a tree wont be able to be able to be sustained as a bonsai. Manage to keep your trees healthy and they can withstand and respond to standard bonsai techniques. Note by "standard" I include not overworking a tree and doing things at the proper time.

Very nicely said , the information out ther has grown and grown , might I ask /suggest for newbies who come this site there be a dedicated member of this site or a dedicated reference on this site to help those newbies with there first bonsai , just a thought , it enables them to access the basics , then they will soon be able to sift through all the info on bonsai , not all of the info is the same , so that little help in the beginning could really help them get started , just a thought

 

[a1dusty]

From my own experience my number 1 item for sustainable bonsai conditions is Disaster Plan & Disaster Recovery Plan.

Natural disasters: how do your bonsai fit in with protection of life and things?

Loss or absence of care takers (permanent/long/short terms)

Loss of facility: Place to keep, water, electricity, etc.

The majority of my own bonsai death are from those things above and not from my own stupidity in bonsai development and care.

You have a very valid point there , I picked up about 110 bonsai in varying stages of life two weeks ago ish , I have had to transplant 70% due to the owner making a very large , shallow pool placing the bonsai in a couple of inches of water and going in holiday or because he lost interest in the husbandry of bonsai under his care , which ever one it was , 90% of our bonsai do not like there feet wet for any length of time , i new they had been treated like this due to water / scale marks left on the outside bottom inch ish of all the bonsai pots , he made the mistake of potting up his seedlings to try instantly make a saleable bonsai to earn money , bad move on both counts above

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Perhaps consider this as a draft image?



Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Paradox]

Tools should be listed under base equipment. Need tools to grow and maintain bonsai

 

[nuttiest]

It is a great diagram, but for whom? I could see something like this used to maybe make bonsai classes more 'official' or maybe to sell something... large potted trees to cityscapes that are hardscaped areas.
Use big phrases like 'sustainable root to shoot ratio', 'within the golden mean' and such. Community involvement, like a sign that says 'please give your leftover water to Edward, the sustainable indoor city Elm' next to the recyclebin.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

It is a great diagram, but for whom? I could see something like this used to maybe make bonsai classes more 'official' or maybe to sell something... large potted trees to cityscapes that are hardscaped areas.
Use big phrases like 'sustainable root to shoot ratio', 'within the golden mean' and such. Community involvement, like a sign that says 'please give your leftover water to Edward, the sustainable indoor city Elm' next to the recyclebin.

Thank you. Yet pretty sure these type of snarky comments were asked to be withheld, right from the start of the thread.

So... now that you have this out of your system.

What specific positive contributions could you give to improve this draft as an expert practitioner?

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[nuttiest]

lol... not meant to be snarky there is real value in studying bonsai in real applications for cityscape. This thread made me think what it meant to me for a couple of days but yet I see value in defining minimizing care, whether it be large containers or bonsai. Since that didn't look like where you were going with it I didn't peep!

 

[Paradox]

Perhaps consider this as a draft image?

View attachment 453327

Cheers
DSD sends

I think it is a good diagram. It lists the factors that go into growing and maintaining bonsai all in one place.

However I am not sure it makes it simpler for new and inexperienced people to understand. Not sure if that is your goal with this.

Some of the things listed (CEC, as an example) are very technical to understand. I don't necessarily think having the more technical terminology is a bad thing because it is part of the overall picture. It just reinforces for me how much needs to be considered for bonsai healthy and it is understandable why it all can seem so overwhelming when starting out.

 

[ShadyStump]

for whom?

It's a breakdown of the basic factors inherent to bonsai. Practical for the beginner feeling overwhelmed with new information, or the intermediate practitioner who's found themselves turning circles in their mind trying to problem solve something, or the expert having trouble explaining something to a student. By breaking it all down to its simplest parts, we've made the seemingly incredibly complex world of bonsai more accessable.

@Deep Sea Diver , I think you've done a good job to start with. On @Paradox 's comment on tools and equipment, I would break it down to general equipment use categories vs. actual items. List things like, "display furnishings," and, "pruning tools." I like this better because it eliminates the perceived entry barrier of needing specialized items when the truth is you can just use whatever works at the time.
I do agree with his statement on vocabulary. Maybe simplify it to something like, "soil ecology and chemistry."

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thanks for all your input.

Likely I should of said a bit more where I was headed with this diagram.

My thoughts swirled around haphazardly during these past couple days …so I needed to create an anchor.

The intention was to build a base document….hence this draft… Outlining items that directly affect bonsai sustainability as defined earlier. Robust and resilient…

After getting consensus that the base document is thorough, the idea was to tease out specific areas and expand each over time. This will take time.

I can see using tools and equipment in this diagram. Not sure about what specific equipment would apply in the expansion. . Any thoughts?

This area area needs more work … I can see right off infected tools can be a major issue. Also seives come to mind. Right tool for the job sends a bit simplistic.

As for vocabulary. I struggle with putting in something other then CEC… it is a core concept.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[nuttiest]

Then it is defining core concepts, not sustainability. Sustainabily would imply things like stage of development, roots to canopy ratio, pot size and long term plans for size the tree. Like your images in the first post, one of them will require minimal care, because of one or more of those things.
I guess I am getting hung up on the word, it conjures images of less caretaking ... doing something like putting the A/c unit runoff into an overhead gutter that drips. One could water 50 plants with what one of those portable AC units puts out.

 

[ShadyStump]

I guess I am getting hung up on the word,

Yeah, this has been thing since the beginning, but for lack of a better word we all agree on I guess we're sticking with it.

putting the A/c unit runoff into an overhead gutter that drips. One could water 50 plants with what one of those portable AC units puts out.

Don't think I haven't brainstormed this. Too dry in my climate for it to be reliable.

Thanks for all your input.

Likely I should of said a bit more where I was headed with this diagram.

My thoughts swirled around haphazardly during these past couple days …so I needed to create an anchor.

The intention was to build a base document….hence this draft… Outlining items that directly affect bonsai sustainability as defined earlier. Robust and resilient…

After getting consensus that the base document is thorough, the idea was to tease out specific areas and expand each over time. This will take time.

I can see using tools and equipment in this diagram. Not sure about what specific equipment would apply in the expansion. . Any thoughts?

This area area needs more work … I can see right off infected tools can be a major issue. Also seives come to mind. Right tool for the job sends a bit simplistic.

As for vocabulary. I struggle with putting in something other then CEC… it is a core concept.

Cheers
DSD sends

I think you're just getting ahead of yourself.
Your initial diagram needs no details, just the basic principles.
Fill out the details "in later chapters" as it were. Something like CEC is one factor of soil chemistry among several other factors, so just leave it at that, and let the reader fill in the details as they begin to understand.
Think of this diagram as the table of contents, not the whole book.

 

[Paradox]

I think you're just getting ahead of yourself.
Your initial diagram needs no details, just the basic principles.
Fill out the details "in later chapters" as it were. Something like CEC is one factor of soil chemistry among several other factors, so just leave it at that, and let the reader fill in the details as they begin to understand.
Think of this diagram as the table of contents, not the whole book.

I agree with this. If you try putting too much detail in what is supposed to be a summary, you'll end up with the whole book. I do feel tools need to be on the list because they are essential equipment. I wouldn't worry about which tools just as you don't go into which bench configuration or soil mixes.

 

[ShadyStump]

I agree with this. If you try putting too much detail in what is supposed to be a summary, you'll end up with the whole book. I do feel tools need to be on the list because they are essential equipment. I wouldn't worry about which tools just as you don't go into which bench configuration or soil mixes.

Seconded.
Tools are a step or two above benches because they're absolutely necessary, whereas benches are essentially a display item.
I would suggest again stating it as tool categories. At least one general pruning tool - secateurs, loppers, saw, or the like - and one fine pruning tool - bonsai shears, fine point scissors, even a very sharp narrow blade knife would do. For the longest time I just used kitchen shears and my Gerber multitool.

 

[Leprous Garden]

I remain uncertain of what the point of all this is. To make a simple breakdown for beginners in bonsai? To talk about bonsai culture in terms of "sustainability"? To try to apply knowledge and practice if horticulture in general to bonsai?

This feels like a discussion more for the benefit of those discussing it than any proposed target audience. Any beginner following this thread is likely to be more confused, not less.

I thought the original idea was more about trying to think holistically about plants and ecology and try to see how that could apply to growing plants, for our purposes, in small pots. Seems that isn't what's happening though.