What are the best ways to create sustainable conditions in which bonsai trees will thrive?

[Deep Sea Diver]

I remain uncertain of what the point of all this is. To make a simple breakdown for beginners in bonsai? To talk about bonsai culture in terms of "sustainability"? To try to apply knowledge and practice if horticulture in general to bonsai?

Circling back, one has to refer to the thread stating the original intent… What are the best ways to create sustainable conditions in which bonsai trees will thrive?

This is what I proposed to explore. It’s hard. Maybe fruitless, yet not imho.

In fact many folks believe simply by the nature of keeping a bonsai alive year after year their tree is “sustainable”. ….and this is an interesting point. But the idea is we use our experience to drill down on this topic and see if there are old/new practices that perhaps might not be neglected, or better done to create robust and resilient trees.

So the thought of “trying to think holistically about plants and ecology and try to see how that could apply to growing plants, for our purposes, in small pots” is valid.

Yet threads are for discussions with others, not for the Lone Ranger, merely posting thoughts and ideas as targets for passers by.

I’m looking for other thoughts and ideas that might apply… and will be revisiting this thread/concept, posting occassionally while continuing to think, experiment, work and learn on trees. (btw Here’s a cool tree below we spent the afternoon pruning back last week)

So your ideas and thoughts to move the discussion forward will always be welcome.



cheers
DSD sends

 

[nuttiest]

I think top factors in longevity for me are:
species - not only is it right for the zone but is trusted species for a bonsai?
location of pot sun/shade - could it stay in the same spot all year?
size of pot - can it stay in a bonsai pot without weakening ? (although that is mostly about species)
canopy - does it shade its own trunk/soil?


Something like that then I would grade it 1-10 on each point and a 40 would be something that is going to have really high stay power.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I think it all boils fown to the following sentence:
The best way to create the best conditions for bonsai to thrive is the motivation to care.

If you dont care for design, you're keeping plants in pots. If you dont care for your plants, they will die.
If you are motivated, you'll explore, learn, improve, evolve, grow. And so will the trees. No matter the conditions, the soil, the tools, or whatever. It's a human-plant interaction after all. We make it work.

 

[ShadyStump]

If you are motivated, you'll explore, learn, improve, evolve, grow. And so will the trees. No matter the conditions, the soil, the tools, or whatever. It's a human-plant interaction after all. We make it work.

I hardily agree, and perhaps adding a note to DSD's graphic about that human factor would be a appropriate.
However, I think it's the results of that human factor that we're trying to get at.

That said, heck, let's discuss that human factor for a bit.
What would you all say are the traits of someone successfully practicing bonsai?
Guy_Wires suggests motivation, but we could argue all year about where that motivation comes from and get at least as many answers as people involved in this discussion, so I'm going to caution against getting stuck in that particular tar pit.

I'll say one necessary trait of anyone successfully practicing bonsai is curiosity. It drives the learning necessary to be successful, but also seems to be a key function in the motivation aspect: that fascination with living things.

 

[cmeg1]

If growing from seed or seedlings and cuttings everyone seems to adopt a version from the internet that sais’ when young can be pushed into fast growing with extra nitrogen,but this will only start a tree with very large plant cells thay have thin cell wals that are suseptible to insect and also general drought vulnerability in the forming vascular system……also what suffers is the health of the roots snce no natural rooting stimulants and any ability to take in phospherous naturally since the leaves do not have energy reserves in the early stages since being wasted to assimilate nitrogen……….. this sounds very unnecessary but you are missing out on many many natural plant processes that occur with lower nitrogen ,slower growth ,that has been happening for billions of years with these genetics such as stronger roots with the proper root exudates that actually will make microbes expel natural NPK right at the rootzone……..I’m just not buying the fast tree growth thing when young at all ……what’s the rush ?

also you learn a lot early on practicing these methods why rush and not learn the basics and see your tree develop and get these results from the very start in the early stages of Vascular health, cell strength ,plant health ,root Health maximal ability to takein amino acids and everything they have better bark and all.

And I believe there is more than meets the eye to the slower growth method with more sugar and plant energy in the plant natural root stimulants being pumped through the phloem the bark the cambium with much more plant reserves and energy ability.

on a cellular and micro nutrient level with things such as certain zinc metals that need less than one part per million or entire plant processes will develop a hidden hunger and not grow and will not be able to take in iron and phosphorus properly will throw everything out of whack things like that that happened in the bark in the phloem and in the first rooting stages throughout the the life of the plant there’s more than meets the eye…….. And with these natural antibiotic process that plants will develop.

and also I don’t believe trees need higher EC fertilizer at the end of the season to make it strong cause it’s only constricts water uptake and produces these turpenes and oils in plants,but really I think this is for ripening vegetables….. not a tree …..we’re talking two totally different lifecycles here.
I believe that lower salt with more natural chelators to absorb the nutrient that way from having more water uptake….. trees love water there’s not all the salts in the ground……they’ve never had it like that.

there is probably way more cytokinesis or general cell division in trees when they are treated in this higher photo synthetic method and slower growth and brix building sugar content energy reserves like everything is stronger bigger cells bigger vascular systems that are stronger don’t rupture don’t get damage everything is probably more more more onthe Cell division level also which produces everything for a longer sustaining Bonsai.

 

[ShadyStump]

If growing from seed or seedlings and cuttings everyone seems to adopt a version from the internet that sais’ when young can be pushed into fast growing with extra nitrogen,but this will only start a tree with very large plant cells thay have thin cell wals that are suseptible to insect and also general drought vulnerability in the forming vascular system……also what suffers is the health of the roots snce no natural rooting stimulants and any ability to take in phospherous naturally since the leaves do not have energy reserves in the early stages since being wasted to assimilate nitrogen……….. this sounds very unnecessary but you are missing out on many many natural plant processes that occur with lower nitrogen ,slower growth ,that has been happening for billions of years with these genetics such as stronger roots with the proper root exudates that actually will make microbes expel natural NPK right at the rootzone……..I’m just not buying the fast tree growth thing when young at all ……what’s the rush ?

also you learn a lot early on practicing these methods why rush and not learn the basics and see your tree develop and get these results from the very start in the early stages of Vascular health, cell strength ,plant health ,root Health maximal ability to takein amino acids and everything they have better bark and all.

And I believe there is more than meets the eye to the slower growth method with more sugar and plant energy in the plant natural root stimulants being pumped through the phloem the bark the cambium with much more plant reserves and energy ability.

on a cellular and micro nutrient level with things such as certain zinc metals that need less than one part per million or entire plant processes will develop a hidden hunger and not grow and will not be able to take in iron and phosphorus properly will throw everything out of whack things like that that happened in the bark in the phloem and in the first rooting stages throughout the the life of the plant there’s more than meets the eye…….. And with these natural antibiotic process that plants will develop.

and also I don’t believe trees need higher EC fertilizer at the end of the season to make it strong cause it’s only constricts water uptake and produces these turpenes and oils in plants,but really I think this is for ripening vegetables….. not a tree …..we’re talking two totally different lifecycles here.
I believe that lower salt with more natural chelators to absorb the nutrient that way from having more water uptake….. trees love water there’s not all the salts in the ground……they’ve never had it like that.

there is probably way more cytokinesis or general cell division in trees when they are treated in this higher photo synthetic method and slower growth and brix building sugar content energy reserves like everything is stronger bigger cells bigger vascular systems that are stronger don’t rupture don’t get damage everything is probably more more more onthe Cell division level also which produces everything for a longer sustaining Bonsai.

You alluded to it, but I'll posit that this practice stems from most people's initial experiences with plants being vegetable gardens, which are predominantly fast growing annuals. This is then reinforced when branching out to annual flowers. Bulbs and herbaceous perineals throw it off a little, but are similar in needs, but then once you get to flowering woody shrubs in the garden like roses it only changes so much.
But yes, trees and less herbaceous shrubs work quite differently. Fast, vigorous growth does NOT equate to overall health and longevity. This is why I like DSD's use of the word, "robust."

 

[cmeg1]

You alluded to it, but I'll posit that this practice stems from most people's initial experiences with plants being vegetable gardens, which are predominantly fast growing annuals. This is then reinforced when branching out to annual flowers. Bulbs and herbaceous perineals throw it off a little, but are similar in needs, but then once you get to flowering woody shrubs in the garden like roses it only changes so much.
But yes, trees and less herbaceous shrubs work quite differently. Fast, vigorous growth does NOT equate to overall health and longevity. This is why I like DSD's use of the word, "robust."

I’ve literally seen faster growth with more water and less salts!!!
It’s better to spoonfeed Nitrogen deficiency with ammonium form directly on the leaves it’s the only form suitable for folier feed it literally is corrected in a matter of hours…….. Also it’s best to wait for minor micro nutrient and macro nutrient deficiencies ….calcium & magnesium are some of the first micro nutrient deficiencies to appear……… It’s better to just correct them with appropriate methods and still keep the salts low…… it’s good to do homework before correcting in them from a reputable source you don’t wanna be putting nitrate nitrogen on the leaves it’s almost instant failure a lot of people do not know that….. Straight up burns them and put them in very bad condition with damage to the the protection layer and everything….stomata.


Trees also transpire waaaayyyyyyyy more with more available water to uptake transpiring nutrient like calcium needs…( unless with extra addition of certian aminos to increase calcium uptake at the roots)……….way cool by the way.

Another reason to let slower growth reign,so amino acids can be utilized at the rootzone an effect by microbes living on root exudatez…..this occures somewhere in this process…… calcium is a macronutrient.!!!!!!!

 

[nuttiest]

I’ve literally seen faster growth with more water and less salts!!!
It’s better to spoonfeed Nitrogen deficiency with ammonium form directly on the leaves it’s the only form suitable for folier feed it literally is corrected in a matter of hours…….. Also it’s best to wait for minor micro nutrient and macro nutrient deficiencies ….calcium & magnesium are some of the first micro nutrient deficiencies to appear……… It’s better to just correct them with appropriate methods and still keep the salts low…… it’s good to do homework before correcting in them from a reputable source you don’t wanna be putting nitrate nitrogen on the leaves it’s almost instant failure a lot of people do not know that….. Straight up burns them and put them in very bad condition with damage to the the protection layer and everything….stomata.


Trees also transpire waaaayyyyyyyy more with more available water to uptake transpiring nutrient like calcium needs…( unless with extra addition of certian aminos to increase calcium uptake at the roots)……….way cool by the way.

Another reason to let slower growth reign,so amino acids can be utilized at the rootzone an effect by microbes living on root exudatez…..this occures somewhere in this process…… calcium is a macronutrient.!!!!!!!

I hate nitrogen. I wait until there are yellow leaves and then do a humic coated urea at (what I thought) was 1/5 strength. Living in bug hell right now. Any new push completely damaged by whitefly and gnat with the added worry of vector born disease.
Do you separate the p-k? Have used monopotasium phosphate but want to switch to potassium sulfate and bone meal

 

[Leprous Garden]

I hate nitrogen. I wait until there are yellow leaves and then do a humic coated urea at (what I thought) was 1/5 strength. Living in bug hell right now. Any new push completely damaged by whitefly and gnat with the added worry of vector born disease.
Do you separate the p-k? Have used monopotasium phosphate but want to switch to potassium sulfate and bone meal

Why do you hate nitrogen? It is the most important nutrient for plant growth.

 

[cmeg1]

I hate nitrogen. I wait until there are yellow leaves and then do a humic coated urea at (what I thought) was 1/5 strength. Living in bug hell right now. Any new push completely damaged by whitefly and gnat with the added worry of vector born disease.
Do you separate the p-k? Have used monopotasium phosphate but want to switch to potassium sulfate and bone meal

Well there is more to it using organic phosphate such as bonemeal you definately need microbes to break it down and have it more available …….for nitrogen deficiency ammonium nitrate is the only gentle method that will not fry the leaves.

The sulfate forms of everything are the best as they do increase sugar content ….I hear mycorhiza is needed if you’re going to use organic phosphorus it’s really the only reason mycorrhiza is needed ………..microbes can be used for any fertilizer though as they are very good at living on root exudates and creating naturally available forms of NPk if you keep the nitrogen low and the plants are high brix with enough sugar.

If you use mycorrhiza with salt based regular phosphorus it is actually expelled for a pathogen by the root because it doesn’t need it.
The rootwill only use mycorrhiza and actually grow it for organic phosphorus breakdown such as bonemeal to make it available into an ion form

 

[nuttiest]

Why do you hate nitrogen? It is the most important nutrient for plant growth.

Nitrogen summer growth is like spring but in all the wrong places, weak long internodes that have to be cut off anyway.

 

[nuttiest]

Well there is more to it using organic phosphate such as bonemeal you definately need microbes to break it down and have it more available …….for nitrogen deficiency ammonium nitrate is the only gentle method that will not fry the leaves.

The sulfate forms of everything are the best as they do increase sugar content ….I hear mycorhiza is needed if you’re going to use organic phosphorus it’s really the only reason mycorrhiza is needed ………..microbes can be used for any fertilizer though as they are very good at living on root exudates and creating naturally available forms of NPk if you keep the nitrogen low and the plants are high brix with enough sugar.

If you use mycorrhiza with salt based regular phosphorus it is actually expelled for a pathogen by the root because it doesn’t need it.
The rootwill only use mycorrhiza and actually grow it for organic phosphorus breakdown such as bonemeal to make it available into an ion form

Thanks, I will use another phosphate since new soil contains no mycorrizae. The studies now on root exudates are shocking, like a whole new field. I read an article that made me think that any tree that went through severe stress should actually be repotted. Not what they meant probably but it is so complicated, a new thing to worry about that we can't even understand.

 

[BobbyLane]

Nitrogen summer growth is like spring but in all the wrong places, weak long internodes that have to be cut off anyway.

I wouldnt say weak at all...you will get some long nodes and larger leaves using a high N fert but for trees in development thats fine, thats what you want. Sure, you let them grow out and cut them back hard, so youll be cutting off a lot of the vigorous growth anyway.
this was fed on miracle gro at every watering last summer, the growth was phenomenal. That season it gave me four strong flushes, combined with some unprecedented hot weather

 

[nuttiest]

Hahaha... getting to be like a fertilize thread here I take it to the memes... looks like i derailed dsd's thread.

 

[ShadyStump]

Hahaha... getting to be like a fertilize thread here I take it to the memes... looks like i derailed dsd's thread.

It's a big part of the topic, and everyone has an opinion.
All good as far as I'm concerned. We are discussing the particulars of aspects we've already deemed are especially important to sustainable and holistic bonsai care.

I personally prefer to fertilize as minimally as possible. I'm on @cmeg1 's side here, just thinking of it less mad-sciencey : let it happen the most natural way possible, and the tree will establish its own balance and let it's needs be known. Fertilize the same way you should water; because it's in a confined root space, and thus has less "wiggle room" for soil chemistry changes.
I personally like to add organic matter to my soils, and try fertilize only to help the tree along until the establishment of a healthy microbiome, and then only keep a healthy balance and prevent nutrient deficiencies.
Now I'm still learning exactly what all that means and looks like, but I feel like I'm on the right track.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I don’t mind exploring folks. There are alot of nooks and crannies that need to be poked into.

A good guideline would be to discuss key topics with a goal to eventually narrow these down in such a way as to be useful to this thread’s purpose…. (Sans snark )

Experience is useful. One might consider there is also an ever growing body of research on this topic. A good thought provoking podcast in this vein might be Asymmetry 175

James Agent Soil Science

Podcast Episode · Bonsai Mirai: Asymmetry · 10/08/2021 · 2h 22m

podcasts.apple.com

I’ll continue to work to fold in concepts.

Presently I’m finishing up work on a wintering over section, sending it to some folks for review and doing last posts on a couple interesting azalea experiments

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[BobbyLane]

Hahaha... getting to be like a fertilize thread here I take it to the memes... looks like i derailed dsd's thread.

forget the memes, 'the proof is in the pudding' as they say, hahaha....

 

[nuttiest]

forget the memes, 'the proof is in the pudding' as they say, hahaha....

Sorry for the laugh at your photo, Bobby, it made me uncomfortable. Been trying for years to get smaller leaves and ramification and stunt growth.
I see your photo, and I wonder if my trees would rather live in a BobbyLane world, and I question my method.

 

[Leprous Garden]

Sorry for the laugh at your photo, Bobby, it made me uncomfortable. Been trying for years to get smaller leaves and ramification and stunt growth.
I see your photo, and I wonder if my trees would rather live in a BobbyLane world, and I question my method.

Stunting growth is probably not the best goal. Small leaves doesn't equal "stunted growth" per se, it's more a shifting balance between number of leaves and photosynthetic area.

Don't hate nitrogen. Yes, it is not always best to dump nitrogen on your bonsai. But without any nitrogen the plants would die!

 

[Catagonia]

As a newbie and a non scientist, I might need to read this thread again a few times to get the nuances, but what I’m getting is that DSD is seeking not to define a universal formula for caring for bonsai, but a list of factors that would go into such a formula.

This is in aid of providing optimum care for any given bonsai, where optimum care is defined as care resulting in both robust health and satisfactory response to bonsai techniques for the indefinite future.

It attempts to be a holistic approach, incorporating all known factors, from light/air/water to soil biome to pruning techniques encouraging future development as well as current appearance.

It seems to me that the factors promoting healthy growth would be addressed by general horticultural science, which is a sophisticated, rapidly developing discipline of its own. The factors promoting satisfactory response to bonsai techniques, which result from generations of specialization (not always subjected to scientific testing), may differ from those promoting health, and may even be detrimental to it.

Ultimately this project would need to not just identify the factors, but describe how to find a workable balance in a holistic approach taking everything into account. And with all that, there would still be no universal formula, because optimum care will always depend most of all on species and the local climate.

This is an ambitious project.