What are the best ways to create sustainable conditions in which bonsai trees will thrive?

[Cajunrider]

For me, sustainable conditions for my bonsai to thrive are actually a systematic set up that give the bonsai trees I have the light, water, nutrients they need to thrive that I can keep up with the amount of time and resources I have.
Here is an example:
Time and resources: 10 minutes in the morning, 30-45 minutes in the afternoon, 1-2 hours each day on weekend. Tight budget of about $50/month
Trees I have:
Fit for my growing zone year round:
* Bald cypress - Loves sun and water. Trunk developing ones like having wet feet and mucky soil while developed BC bonsai like bonsai soil for finer roots in to live in compact pot. So sustainable conditions for my developing bonsai will be shallow pots in the middle of the yard with mucky soil placed inside cement mixing tubs. I douse them with the hose in the morning and the afternoon. If I am away for up to a week, it doesn't matter, the water in the tub keep the BCs thriving. Cheap, easy to maintain and my BCs grow well. That is sustainable to me.
* Mayhaw/Live oaks/Jujube/Chinese elms - Loves sun and water and can tolerate wet feet but only intermittently. Same as BC, my soil testing on them shows developing Mayhaw like soil with more organic to maintain higher level of moisture, less so for developed ones. So I keep these in shallow flat or pond basket in the middle of the yard next to my BCs and water them the same way. Without the cement mixing tubs under the flat, the water drains away. When I am away, I set up the sprinkler to water them twice a day in summer, once a day in spring or fall. Once again, cheap, easy to maintain and all these grow well. That is sustainable to me as well.

Then there are the Delonix regia, Tamarindus indica, Eucalyptus deglupta etc. that are really not fit for my growing zone year round. They are like the Mayhaw in the summer but I have to care for them in the winter else they die. That's a lot of moving, creating space in the garage etc.. That is really not sustainable to me. I struggle with them.

Then I have other trees, each have different requirement sets, most of them I have certain difficulties such as light / heat for maple etc. With my current level of time/resources, most of them are not really sustainable to me.

As for soil, I don't have enough expertise to speak. I touched on the soil a little bit for BC and Mayhaw but in general, I stay within the bonsai soil people here use commonly.

When I retire and move to a different climate, the conditions will change
With this post I essentially stated what sustainable conditions mean to me and what I do.

 

[Joe Dupre']

I still have no idea what all of this word salad means. Can someone give an example or suggestion of what ONE of these factors is?

 

[BobbyLane]

To sum up....Light, water, air

 

[a1dusty]

Some bonsai are fussy on the ph of soils , my azaleas thrive in kanuma as there roots take in sugars best at 5.5 ph which when watered turns the water slightly acidic , my pines I usually add about 30% kanuma as they like slightly acidic , saying that one of my poorly pines I planted in 100% akadama , that pine is now thriving and back budding lovely , watering takes three passes due to the compact akadama , I do believe that ph of soil and or water makes a massive difference to each tree .

 

[Cajunrider]

I still have no idea what all of this word salad means. Can someone give an example or suggestion of what ONE of these factors is?

Bacon bits Joe. Bacon bits will make this better. It will sustain me for sure.

 

[Deleted member 32750]

This has been an interesting discussion so far and there are points that have been made that I think are important and some points that I think are less important for sustaining a bonsai.

One important phrase I want to key in on is “create living forms of art for the enjoyment of current and future generations.” I specifically want to talk about sustaining bonsai for future generations and bring up one factor that hasn’t been mentioned yet and that I feel is not given enough attention in western bonsai, and this is maintaining inner ramification and promoting back budding on trees.

most of the species we use in bonsai are apically dominant plants, so they have strength in their apices and at the ends of branches where auxin concentrations a the greatest. Inevitably the apices and branches of these trees will get too strong that you have to cut back to softer growth on the interior of the canopy.

Well.. you can have the most robust and resilient tree in the world but if you don’t take steps to maintain inner buds and ramification and promote back budding then eventually you will have a very leggy plant and your bonsai will be ruined because you have nothing to cut back to.

Consider a 70 year old kokufu quality specimen Japanese maple that is highly ramified with fine twigs. In the summer time these trees are covered with leaves and often look like a “green helmet.” Without taking appropriate measures, air and light will not be able to enter from the canopy of the tree and the interior growth will be shaded out, turn yellow, and the buds will die. This can happen in just one season, so imagine the result year after year if this is neglected. The result is the death of the future of your bonsai because now you have nothing to cut back to when that time comes. The same thing can happen to pines, trident maples ect..

So how do we prevent this from happened? Well the techniques are species specific.
For Japanese maples that are highly ramified and extremely full in the summer time, you cut one leaf in each pair on the outer canopy resulting in a reduction of the photosynthetic surface on the exterior. If needed you can cut the remaining leaf in half to allow even more light to enter. Now light and air can enter and strengthen the interior which will be the future bonsai for the next generations.

 

[BobbyLane]

Trees are so resilient! each time I visit my allotment, which is only next door to my building, im finding root suckers or seedlings that are popping up out of nowhere, but usually very close to where ive previously dug up trees that were growing on. so while i dont have much material left out there, im finding hornbeam, which i didnt even know suckered from roots, ive got hawthorn and elm suckers popping up too.
must be good soil

 

[ShadyStump]

I still have no idea what all of this word salad means. Can someone give an example or suggestion of what ONE of these factors is?

So what was is my goal? To put together a coherent, hopefully short, description of sustainable bonsai attributes that can be viewed by new folks and experienced folks over time. Hopefully as a guide, certainly thought provoking in any event.

I admit and agree that this has mostly been a very academic brainstorm, with very little usable gains made thus far, but I'm looking forward to seeing it develop, hopefully, into something much more kinetic.

 

[Kadebe]

That is hard to imagine for me that he does not repot. How does he deal with root growth that builds up in a pot. Maybe really slows down on fertilizer.

Why not? The way I see it... there is a balance between the amount of roots and the amount of foliage. So by pruning, there is no longer a balance, there are too many roots for the foliage, so the plant has no reason to produce new roots and in priority makes new shoots.
Additionally, in my opinion, you can never keep a plant healthy for as long without repotting if you also use solid fertilisers. I think only liquid organic fertiliser is used.

 

[Kadebe]

To sum up....Light, water, air

+ enough organisms that convert nutrients so that they can be easily taken up by the plant ... in my opinion, completely underestimated

 

[Kadebe]

Reviewing the answers to the OP's original question, I see that folks find other plants living in the pot to be a plus. I typically remove any weeds and really anything growing in the pot other than my tree. Should I not be doing this? Does allowing other things to grow in the pot improve the micro-habitat?

Well, I had the same question, and after some research I found the following:

1. Clover is a nitrogen fixer
https://www.oneearth.org/the-various-advantages-of-clover/

Perhaps better not to weed out all the clovers from the pot?

2. Trees talk to one another and help one another.

So, this gives me an additional question... is it possible that the trees in a bonsai forest flourish more easily? Suppose you make a forest of three thriving trees with two trees that survive, would those two thrive better in a forest of healthy trees?

 

[Paradox]

So working off of this to the field of bonsai I came up with a draft definition for bonsai for people to think about and comment on.

Sustainable bonsai is the discipline of caring for and managing (in an environmentally responsible way?) a bonsai ​

- in a way that will yield a healthy, robust bonsai system, ​

- which responds with resiliency to the rigors of bonsai practice, ​

- to create a work of living art for the enjoyment of present and future generations.​

​

I feel the things further down that list are dependent upon the ones above them. You need to hit all the points in your first item to have a tree healthy enough for the second.

A healthy, robust bonsai system will be the results of good care. adequate sun and water, good soil, adequate fertilizer, proper winter protection and control of fungus and insects.

A healthy, vigorous tree will best be able to withstand what we do to them to establish them as bonsai and recover from that work in good condition.

If the first two are met, then the 3rd item on the list is accomplished.

 

[ShadyStump]

I would say our goal here is really to determine the key factors that must ALL be met in order to achieve a bonsai. Sort of like the fire tetrahedron, for example. Fire does not exist without 4 key elements: oxygen, heat, fuel, and a chemical reaction. Why is the chemical reaction listed separately when it's dependent on the existence of the others? Because the existence of the others may not be sufficient to trigger it, and it can be the triggering phenomenon itself, initializing the others.

Taken in this light, we certainly have some more thinking to do, but we now have an idea what we're aiming for.

 

[Glaucus]

I am kind of thinking that growing a plant in a pot with soil, covered with moss, and active microbiome of some sort, will be more robust than a plant growing in hydroponics, or a substrate-filled bonsai pot. But that the latter can be maybe a little bit more effective. This from a purely horticulture perspective, as bonsai are usually understood to require substrate (though if someone asked me, I wouldn't be able to give an answer as to the 'why' that would satisfy me.).
Moss, soil ecology, that is all fine and definitely very important in nature. But one cannot argue with the results that are achieved in hydroponics, aquaponics, and soil-less mixes. Both for bonsai and non-bonsai.
Growing plants, and bonsai, in a very artificial environment is definitely very viable.

That a plant requires water, light, air, nutrients and some type of soil/substrate seems obvious. The question is how much, or how little. Maybe key is understanding the signs of too much or too little of each and how it affects your subject species from a purely horticulture point of view. Then you can balance closer to the edge for your bonsai.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

The term "Sustainable" seems... misplaced... if we arent somehow talking about how to create an environment in a pot for artfully curated trees which needs as little outside attention as possible and still retains the resilient and robust health we have been talking about.

If you take the art out of it, and just wanted to have healthy specimens, how do we do this, and is it possible to obtain an equilibrium in which little attention is needed but trees are healthy. Part of what a sustainable environment is in nature is an environment in equilibrium with itself absent care of humans.

 

[ShadyStump]

Part of what a sustainable environment is in nature is an environment in equilibrium with itself absent care of humans.

I can agree with the rest of your statement - I'm not sure "sustainable" is the right word - but this line I'll argue with.
The forestry industry is a good example. Sustainably harvesting trees doesn't mean that we just chop and walk. We harvest them strategically to reduce impact, encourage growth of new trees and even replant them, and overall seek to ensure that there will be more trees to harvest in the future while simultaneously reducing ecological impact.
None of this means minimal human involvement, but often quite the opposite.

Now, in that sort of context, "sustainable," isn't a word we'd use for bonsai.
I look more to the root word, sustain. Like sustain, sustenance, sustainable. In other words, how do we create an environment in which we're not constantly reacting to some issue or another, preventing the pendulum swing of one day healthy and another distressed?
In my mind we're looking for the balance, as you mentioned, between growing so strongly we can't possibly maintain the same styling in the tree, and constant life support which is essentially what many of us do with routine fertilizer regimens for example.

I may not be explaining the nuance in my head well.

 

[ShadyStump]

bonsai are usually understood to require substrate (though if someone asked me, I wouldn't be able to give an answer as to the 'why' that would satisfy me.).

Inorganic substrate allows both water and air to easily penetrate to the tree roots, while draining sufficiently to generally avoid conditions that would cause root rot. This is important because the pots are usually very shallow and restrictive, which, due to the physics related to water in confined spaces, makes drainage difficult.

Hope that helps.

 

[Paradox]

Yea I am still not happy with the term "sustainable" in the context of this discussion either because of the meaning it has in the ecological, and resource management sense.

In my world "sustainable" means managing a resource such that the population is not at risk of decline. Specifically, how many fish can be harvested such that the current level of fish in the population is maintained and not reduced. In that sense, humans are very much involved.

However, thinking about it, I think in this discussion, DSD means that "sustainable" should be in terms of keeping a tree healthy and able to undergo bonsai training and maintenance. Still a bit bothersome to me but I can't think of a better word to use

 

[Glaucus]

Inorganic substrate allows both water and air to easily penetrate to the tree roots, while draining sufficiently to generally avoid conditions that would cause root rot. This is important because the pots are usually very shallow and restrictive, which, due to the physics related to water in confined spaces, makes drainage difficult.

Hope that helps.

Yeah, I get that. But it doesn't satisfy me completely. Shallow pots, smaller root system, requires more regular watering, requires better drainage, etc.
Walter Pall states quite harshly that you never ever use soil for bonsai, but his answer is that it is a myth that people think plants require soil, which is absolutely true.
He then explains why soil-less can work very well. He makes the drainage & air argument. I think the best argument I can come up with is that soil mixes do have enough air and drainage initially, but later (±1 year) on become compacted. Then he claims root rot. This doesn't fully satisfy me because larger potted plants that are not considered bonsai usually do fine long term in soil. Granted, a larger pot with soil requires less watering. Additionally, the guy who doesn't repot and uses 33% pine bark, that pine bark will be soil in 2 or 3 years time.
Same with many forms of substrate that also decompose after several frost cycles. Which usually makes us repot. I feel there must be some detail that is missing.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Greetings Folks! I had to take a break from writing as I was busy on our bonsai.

That doesn't mean I haven't been keeping up with this thread. I have, with increasing interest at the great points folks are contributing to the thread. I have to say first and foremost I so appreciate your ideas and thoughts to support this thread.

This morning I had to laugh, sitting out back thinking, suddenly realizing that while not strictly trying to listen to my trees, thanks to @BobbyLane I sure was communing with nature while looking at two trees we'd, with the help of Todd Schlafer reworked two weeks ago.

These trees have been worked on by at least three generations of bonsai hobbyists and are just starting to reach their potential.

Mugo Pine Japanese White Pine



The tenuous continuity of these trees when I first received these suddenly as a noob and my experiences since in bonsai work is why I started this thread. It seems to me Bonsai is really all about knowing and refining the human factors so a hobbyist is ready, knowledgeable and able to properly work with trees. Actually might be a logical next step

But first, there is some unfinished business that it seems proper to address.

I think it was @ShadyStump who asked for a mission statement. (The tread started with:

What are the best ways to create sustainable conditions in which bonsai trees will survive. (I still think this is ok up to now, but see below and tell me what you think.)

So far in the thread we've explored what sustainable bonsai creating a working definition.

A couple folks in the past days have added some really nice ideas that likely ought to be included and/or discussed further on this thread. (Please forgive me for paraphrasing and if I miss any topic or person. Also so sorry for all the name checking )

I think @19Mateo83 and @Joe Dupre' mentioned matching a tree to the climate it was being worked in (Without additional support)

@a1dusty mentioned proper pH of Water and media

@Adam D mentioned techniques to achieve proper ramification and back budding.

Many folks @Orion_metalhead , @dbonsaiw , @LAS @Kadebe spoke about the need for methods of improving the health of the rhizosphere

@Mikecheck123 Discussed about what happens when something goes wrong... or, perhaps, being prepared for problems Human and environment.

@Cajunrider discussed sustainable conditions or limitations

@Glaucus and @Paradox discussed potential limitations for life in a pot. ( btw @Bonsai Nut did mention yamadori in the field as being a living sustainable example. Perhaps Dan's work is somewhat similar human influenced example?)

@ShadyStump - mentioned my intent was to use existing techniques and methods to answer this question. (I'd say mostly. Yet lots of things we will discuss can be controversial in the Wild West of Bonsai Nut. For example media, fertilization, chemical use, need for a healthy rhizosphere to name a couple)

In my own mind I've been thinking alot about "What's a sustainable technique?" timing, amounts, and how to nail down proper and environmentally responsible chemical use.

Finally, @August44 and other folks discussed the term "sustainability" and the possible need to modify the term. Also the definition of, "sustainable bonsai". (While I sought for a less "politically charged" word to replace sustainable to better define the concept, I'm falling short so far..... sorry)

Potential Next Steps

1. I'm going to do some work and see if I can fold some of the easiest topics into the existing work... (There are: ph of water and media, proper ramification and back budding, matching a tree to the climate (without support). So I'll work on folding these in to the existing framework.

2. Folks who desire might help by thinking about and discussing any of the above topics which remain (I'll jump in once I'm done) These are:

• Methods to improve the health of the rhizosphere in a bonsai system,
• Simple, specific ways to be realistically prepared for different human and environmental problems
• Specific things that limit or enhance or provide sustainable conditions for bonsai
• Limitations and ways to improve a bonsai's life in a pot...
• Timing issues for techniques and caring for the health of bonsai
• Proper and environmentally responsible chemical use
• Absolutely anything folks desire consistent with the threads intent

3.... and perhaps mull this question over.... it might help.

What are the methods and techniques which will keep a bonsai sustainable (robust and resilient for generations) while meeting the aesthetic demands of bonsai (any styling method.)?

Thanks again everyone!

cheers
DSD sends