To argue, could you put your best foot forward to post?

[herzausstahl]

This is my exact reality around here. If you want you can go to my blog and see if my trees represent knowledge. I no longer respond to people and offer help. I got tired of being treated like I know nothing.

I wouldn't let a few people get you down & stop offering advice. The person whose post your commenting on may not heed it but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot more of us reading that post gaining experience as a result. That's why I tend to tag you & @crust in any post with Larchs where I have questions because I know you both live in a climate, while colder than mine, but somewhat similar, and that you both have worked with these species extensively. So who better to turn too? Not to mention anyone else reading the posts who is benefiting along with myself. For any knucklehead who hasn't done the procedure/technique being discusse, let them. The more you guys explain the process to them, the more we learn reading it. Even the knuckleheads will change their minds seeing the rest of us follow the advice given with success while they wallow in failure, dead trees, or poor results.

 

[Adair M]

Why does Joe have to be the example Just kidding.... Honestly, for me, all that matters is if I like a tree or not! I don't care about what the naysayers have to say because I've already come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter. I didn't get into Bonsai to be part of a club or to be part of a community, I got into Bonsai because I fell in love with the tree's themselves! If I like a tree, I acquire it, water it, and care for it to best of my ability. If I happen to cross paths with a few people here and there who's opinions I trust cool, helps me out to have someone to confide in and it's always nice to make a friend. I think it's preposterous for one person in Bonsai to tell another person in Bonsai that if he/she didn't bend every branch and yadayadayada that it's not his/her tree to put his/her name on lol, that's just stupid and a little bit snobish too.... Hell, how many of us actually fabricated every part on our vehicles and assembled them too? Does that mean anything in terms of validating ownership? Hell no!

Sorry! It wasn't directed at you! I had in my mind "Average Joe"...kinda like using "widget" when discussing manufacturing processes...

 

[abqjoe]

So you can't be intermediate unless you've killed more than 10 trees, that is ridiculous. And experienced people need to have killed many more?
I have killed some trees, but dozens, no. And I would not put that forward as a qualification...

I agree! I'm new to this and given the level of stock that I ended up starting out with I learned real quick how to take care of my tree's! Out of 30 tree's I've only killed 1, a Juniper from Wal-Mart which I'm pretty sure was dead when I bought it

Sorry! It wasn't directed at you! I had in my mind "Average Joe"...kinda like using "widget" when discussing manufacturing processes...

Yea I figured

 

[JudyB]

Bonsai killing is an absolutely decent measurement of experience - ask any master.

If you are being serious, I disagree strongly.
I have killed trees, a few of them were good trees, most were nothing but projects. I am not overly cautious, but do not enjoy killing things so am careful to give good aftercare, which I consider to be the most important step if you're going to work trees. Why anyone would think that killing trees is a measure of proficiency is beyond my imagination.

 

[coh]

If you are being serious, I disagree strongly.
I have killed trees, a few of them were good trees, most were nothing but projects. I am not overly cautious, but do not enjoy killing things so am careful to give good aftercare, which I consider to be the most important step if you're going to work trees. Why anyone would think that killing trees is a measure of proficiency is beyond my imagination.

Seems to be a common belief here and elsewhere. I guess the thinking goes, if you're not killing some trees, you're not pushing them (or your own limits) far enough? And thus not really doing bonsai? I've always had a problem with that, but I tend to be very cautious, maybe too much.

 

[Adair M]

Seems to be a common belief here and elsewhere. I guess the thinking goes, if you're not killing some trees, you're not pushing them (or your own limits) far enough? And thus not really doing bonsai? I've always had a problem with that, but I tend to be very cautious, maybe too much.

Yeah, that's one of the things Boon stresses: the health of the tree comes first. It doesn't matter how pretty it was if it's dead!

Always, before we can do any work on a tree it has to be healthy and strong. The work we do is stressful for the tree, a weak tree won't benefit from our work.

I've seen him refuse to work with people's trees they brought to a workshop because he said it wasn't healthy enough. They were mad, but Boon doesn't want anyone to be able to say, "I took my tree to a Boon workshop, and Boon killed it!"

 

[milehigh_7]

... Hell, how many of us actually fabricated every part on our vehicles and assembled them too? Does that mean anything in terms of validating ownership? Hell no!

This is a Non sequitur in that it is not what I said in the least. There is a really rich dude here in Vegas named Steve Wynn, he owns some really famous art. In fact, he put his elbow through a 60 million dollar Picasso. He owns them to be sure and as mentioned, he has done a little work on one of them, he is, however, NOT an artist. Steve Wynn is just a rich collector and caretaker that can have anything he wants.

Could he ever claim to be the artist of these works? Nope.

Let's use cars, your example. You can go buy a car, you can mod that car all day long. You can do anything you want to it but if you ever call that car your design even after you mod it beyond recognition, the manufacturer will sue you and win. Why? It is their intellectual property. Their design. You are merely building on the work of another. This is especially true if all you do is keep that car clean, waxed and running well.

Not a thing wrong with that mind you and it does not take away from how cool the thing is. It's just not an example of your artistry. It may be an example of your skill but that's only half of the picture.

The issue is some folks need to be validated. Me I have no such need. I have never liked the cool kids.

 

[Adair M]

This is a Non sequitur in that it is not what I said in the least. There is a really rich dude here in Vegas named Steve Wynn, he owns some really famous art. In fact, he put his elbow through a 60 million dollar Picasso. He owns them to be sure and as mentioned, he has done a little work on one of them, he is, however, NOT an artist. Steve Wynn is just a rich collector and caretaker that can have anything he wants.

Could he ever claim to be the artist of these works? Nope.

Let's use cars, your example. You can go buy a car, you can mod that car all day long. You can do anything you want to it but if you ever call that car your design even after you mod it beyond recognition, the manufacturer will sue you and win. Why? It is their intellectual property. Their design. You are merely building on the work of another. This is especially true if all you do is keep that car clean, waxed and running well.

Not a thing wrong with that mind you and it does not take away from how cool the thing is. It's just not an example of your artistry. It may be an example of your skill but that's only half of the picture.

The issue is some folks need to be validated. Me I have no such need. I have never liked the cool kids.

The problem with your painting analogy is a painting is static. Once Picasso lays his brushes down and signs it, it doesn't change. Oh, it has to be protected, but the painting doesn't get bigger.

Your car analogy doesn't work so well. There are companies that make modifications to cars and resell them under their brand name. Sure, they'll say it started as xxx car, but when they're done, it's something else entirely. (Sorry, I'm not into that kind of thing so I can't name specifics.)

It's not unusual for Kimura, for example, to take a tree that had been worked on by who knows who for years, and redesign it. Make it into something it had never been before. I have Japanese language magazines where they do exactly that! Sometimes, they'll take amazing trees, and completely restyle it. I have no idea why, I guess they had too much to drink! But when they're done, if you didn't know, there's no way you would have thought the final product and the starting tree were the one and the same.

Brian Van Fleet has an azalea that he calls his "Ben Oki" azalea. There's a thread on it here somewhere. The styling today shows no resemblance to the original style when Brian worked on it with Ben. Now Brian still calls it his Ben Oki tree because he wants to. But the styling is all BVF!

 

[milehigh_7]

@Adair M The car thing was Joe's example... I just tried to extend it... You are right, what makes Bonsai and possibly some other things different is that the medium is living. What I am trying to get at is this. I know my place in the bonsai world and in fact on this thread I am kind of arguing with some of my heroes. I'll never be one of you guys for various reasons and I'm cool with that. I'm also secure and enjoy the level that I am at. Your skill and the others mentioned before baffles my mind and 99% of the time I will yield to your opinion.

Where I get aggravated and always have is when people want to try and puff their chest out so to speak and assert their dominance when it's just not needed. Don't even try to deny that this is a problem in the bonsai world. It's an old story, some person stands up and says only those in the club get an opinion (not exactly what Smoke was doing but close enough). It is what used to happen on IBC. Well, I think those people suck. The truth is I could not care any less how good you are if you are an ass. You don't impress me and you never will.

The other thing that's annoying is the folk (and more than a few come to mind) that either bought or basically inherited someone else's work then started taking it to shows and talking a big game. Maybe they have a visiting artist come and stay at their house a few times a year to re-style everything. Maybe they just sort of took over somebody's collection and now they are hot stuff. That bugs me. Sorry.

I have zero doubt that you and BVF can take any tree you choose to work with and do whatever you want with it far better than I ever could so please don't misunderstand me. I am talking about the people who would post in such a forum as Smoke suggested and enjoy the exclusivity it brings but not be able to get the tree to that point themselves. Those folks are no better than me even if they have a $1000 tree.

 

[abqjoe]

This is a Non sequitur in that it is not what I said in the least. There is a really rich dude here in Vegas named Steve Wynn, he owns some really famous art. In fact, he put his elbow through a 60 million dollar Picasso. He owns them to be sure and as mentioned, he has done a little work on one of them, he is, however, NOT an artist. Steve Wynn is just a rich collector and caretaker that can have anything he wants.

Could he ever claim to be the artist of these works? Nope.

Let's use cars, your example. You can go buy a car, you can mod that car all day long. You can do anything you want to it but if you ever call that car your design even after you mod it beyond recognition, the manufacturer will sue you and win. Why? It is their intellectual property. Their design. You are merely building on the work of another. This is especially true if all you do is keep that car clean, waxed and running well.

Not a thing wrong with that mind you and it does not take away from how cool the thing is. It's just not an example of your artistry. It may be an example of your skill but that's only half of the picture.

The issue is some folks need to be validated. Me I have no such need. I have never liked the cool kids.

I'm just gonna use this moment to post a pic of one of my tree's Originally started by Nick Lenz, neglected for some time, now it's mine and I'm just trying to do right by it. I didn't create it but I sure am enjoying it and putting a lot of work into it.


The second pic is a pic I just took

 

[milehigh_7]

I'm just gonna use this moment to post a pic of one of my tree's Originally started by Nick Lenz, neglected for some time, now it's mine and I'm just trying to do right by it. I didn't create it but I sure am enjoying it and putting a lot of work into it.


The second pic is a pic I just took

View attachment 143169 View attachment 143170

Nothing wrong with that! It's an awesome tree and yea even cooler because it was Nick's. That is not what I'm talking about at all. If you were the type, and it seems you are not, to stick this tree in someone's face and say, "see what I can do?" I might take issue.

Humility goes a long way you seem like a great guy. I talking about the chest pounders and there are some.

 

[grouper52]

So you can't be intermediate unless you've killed more than 10 trees, that is ridiculous. And experienced people need to have killed many more?
I have killed some trees, but dozens, no. And I would not put that forward as a qualification...

t's good to see you here

Judy, you're a bit late showing up to this party, but it's good to see you here! Although I must admit, it made Dylan's old line come back to mind: "What's a sweetheart like you doing in a dump like this?" Sorry to have missed you two this past season.

 

[milehigh_7]

t's good to see you here

Judy, you're a bit late showing up to this party, but it's good to see you here! Although I must admit, it made Dylan's old line come back to mind: "What's a sweetheart like you doing in a dump like this?" Sorry to have missed you two this past season.

I have so missed you my friend! It's good to see you here! Hell, I love everyone here I think regardless of how they feel about me.

 

[M. Frary]

I have so missed you my friend! It's good to see you here! Hell, I love everyone here I think regardless of how they feel about me.

Now you went and did it!
Here comes the waterworks.

 

[grouper52]

Now you went and did it!
Here comes the waterworks.

Group digital hug!!!

OK, OK ... we got that out of the way I hope . . . when we all sober up tomorrow morning or early afternoon we can get back to our usual bickering I hope. ... :") [I think that's a new emoticon of me talking or smiling out of the side of my mouth ... or something ... it's late ... but it's never too late ...

 

[M. Frary]

we can get back to our usual bickering I hope.

It's what keeps me coming back.

 

[milehigh_7]

Group digital hug!!!

OK, OK ... we got that out of the way I hope . . . when we all sober up tomorrow morning or early afternoon we can get back to our usual bickering I hope. ... :") [I think that's a new emoticon of me talking or smiling out of the side of my mouth ... or something ... it's late ... but it's never too late ...

You got it!

 

[grouper52]

Maybe it IS too late - I just thought I felt a forgotten burger or something under a plastic bag next to me on the desk - mouth watering, I quickly borrowed down to get at it, only to find it's a rolled up pair of wollen winter socks ... kinda still looks good though ..........

 

[M. Frary]

You got it!

He is a brain squeezer after all.

 

[milehigh_7]

I think my only regret from this thread is that Smoke can't read at least half of it, likely more... and it's his thread!