To argue, could you put your best foot forward to post?

JudyB said:
I remember when I was first over there, I was chided for posting a photo of a work in progress tree to a personal gallery. Apparently there was some rule about only "finished" trees were good enough to be seen... really gave me a bad taste for that place right off the bat.
Click to expand...
I was told the same thing by a certain moderator (probably the same one BVF referred to). We had been discussing the gallery and I mentioned that I would be posting photos of trees "in progress". I don't remember exactly what his response was, but it was typically nasty. I never created a gallery and eventually stopped posting there.
 
Nybonsai12 said:
I pretty much killed everything from my threads i started when i first joined here.

Kill em til ya get it right...that is what i'm doing. Killed a half dozen black pines, couple seedlings, one decent start on a shohin and one really nice shohin. ah well, I don't run from it. Still lots of room to improve, but i've got a much better handle on them now. Get yourself some more!
Click to expand...
What NOT to do is as valuable as what to do. I think the heart of this thread was @Smoke venting his frustration about some members getting into heated discussions with members who show examples of their work frequently giving credence to their advice & methods whereas the the others are argumentative without offering any evidence to back up their claims, hence his ignore list.
 
coh said:
I was told the same thing by a certain moderator (probably the same one BVF referred to). We had been discussing the gallery and I mentioned that I would be posting photos of trees "in progress". I don't remember exactly what his response was, but it was typically nasty. I never created a gallery and eventually stopped posting there.
Click to expand...
Yes, "chided" is the mild version of what actually went down, it was not pleasant. I never really got fully involved over there for that reason, and hardly ever go there now and never post.
 
I get Smoke's frustration. Spend a few minutes on FB and see the wrong info being spouted and it will make your skin crawl. It's really not that big of a problem here. The other day I was reading a thread where a guy was saying his canopy was finished and now he needed advice on how to thicken his trunk. People were chiming in with the old "poke it, pound it" BS. I'm like, "Dude, you need to learn the way trees work before we move on with this discussion. You don't have a finished canopy then thicken your trunk..." Oh BTW he already had it in a bonsai pot. Yea I know I'm not qualified by some measures but sheesh, at least I could answer on that one...
 
When people first started creating the facebook bonsai groups, they were pretty good. Relatively little fighting, good information, not too much noise. Unfortunately they've gone downhill...way downhill.
 
milehigh_7 said:
I get Smoke's frustration. Spend a few minutes on FB and see the wrong info being spouted and it will make your skin crawl. It's really not that big of a problem here. The other day I was reading a thread where a guy was saying his canopy was finished and now he needed advice on how to thicken his trunk. People were chiming in with the old "poke it, pound it" BS. I'm like, "Dude, you need to learn the way trees work before we move on with this discussion. You don't have a finished canopy then thicken your trunk..." Oh BTW he already had it in a bonsai pot. Yea I know I'm not qualified by some measures but sheesh, at least I could answer on that one...
Click to expand...
Flog the log, makes the trunk grow...in bonsai...

So says my korean neighbor
 
milehigh_7 said:
That's what makes the world go round. :)
Click to expand...
Well, maybe so.

But I disagree with the entire mindset that says only one person can work on a tree for it to be "theirs".

Let's choose another venue, say, painting.

Does the artist have to make his own paints? Sure he mixes his purchased paints on his pallet, but he didn't make the paint! How about the canvas? Can he purchase stretched canvasses at the art store? Ok, so he builds a frame and stretches his own canvas. Happy now? Whoops! SOMEONE ELSE made the canvas! Someone else cut down the tree to make the frame! See where I'm going with this?

Even yamadori bonsai has "Mother Nature" putting in design work. The bonsai stylist didn't do that.

Bonsai is different. The media charges over time. Trees cannot remain static. Even if only one person works on the tree, the tree changes. Some branches grow, others die or wither. If a branch dies that the owner really didn't want to die, but he restyled the tree, should he take credit for the restyle? It's not something he wanted! But, stuff happens!

Let's say I buy a tree from Joe. Joe pruned it, wired it, whatever. But, I didn't like what Joe did. I turned it around, removed all of Joe's wire, completely changed the style do that it was unrecognizable. Should it still be considered "Joe's tree"?

Here's an example:

As purchased:

IMG_0199.JPG

As restyled:

IMG_0208.JPG

Are you really going to say I can't take credit for the styling of that tree?
 
Adair M said:
Well, maybe so.

But I disagree with the entire mindset that says only one person can work on a tree for it to be "theirs".

Let's choose another venue, say, painting.

Does the artist have to make his own paints? Sure he mixes his purchased paints on his pallet, but he didn't make the paint! How about the canvas? Can he purchase stretched canvasses at the art store? Ok, so he builds a frame and stretches his own canvas. Happy now? Whoops! SOMEONE ELSE made the canvas! Someone else cut down the tree to make the frame! See where I'm going with this?

Even yamadori bonsai has "Mother Nature" putting in design work. The bonsai stylist didn't do that.

Bonsai is different. The media charges over time. Trees cannot remain static. Even if only one person works on the tree, the tree changes. Some branches grow, others die or wither. If a branch dies that the owner really didn't want to die, but he restyled the tree, should he take credit for the restyle? It's not something he wanted! But, stuff happens!

Let's say I buy a tree from Joe. Joe pruned it, wired it, whatever. But, I didn't like what Joe did. I turned it around, removed all of Joe's wire, completely changed the style do that it was unrecognizable. Should it still be considered "Joe's tree"?

Here's an example:

As purchased:

View attachment 142939

As restyled:

View attachment 142940

Are you really going to say I can't take credit for the styling of that tree?
Click to expand...
No I wouldn't say that exactly. But you acquired it because you like what someone else did to the trunk or you could use what someone else did to the trunk.
Not that it matters of course, but that is the reality. The bend in the trunk will remain forever. Thing is though, that's no big deal. You have well and truly put your mark on it. What irritates me is people who buy finished trees and own them for a while and then claim or are given total credit for producing it when all that they have done is maintain it. Some of these guys are even looked upon as masters because after a time, people forget that it was acquired that way. I don't lose any sleep over it though.
 
Truth is...

Almost every type of tree here has a person who is always here reading and ready to protect it, or the person, from bad advice.

You just don't see much bad advice.

Different opinions on methods to get equal horticultural results, yes.

But very little running people off anymore...

And any bad advice gets checked.

People have people too.
PM somebody!
You won't be intentionally unanswered.

Ignore?

Smoke,
That's just 21 more people putting out bad advice that you can't check.
We count on that from you.

I went looking for a different V.W. quote about the ignore list...
Cuz I like his Gentleman's approach to it.

But this one works!

Vance Wood said:
Don't add anyone to your ignore list, God does not put you on an ignore list even if you are or act, like the biggest pile of caca on the planet. Don't get angry when people come against what you believe, you know somethng they do not. It is better to be challenged than ignored. Those who challenge you are interested and worthy of Gods grace.
Click to expand...

Man Up Smoke. (pretend Mic drop caught after 360 spin)

You created the Monster with the Vance Wood Thread in the first place....

You don't get to Ignore it!

Let's go beat up Adair....

Then when he's right, he can tag me and we'll beat you!

I thought you were WAY more fun.than. this!

Love you OLD bro!

Cheer the .fuck.up!

Grumpy sumbytch!

Sorce
 
sorce said:
Truth is...

Almost every type of tree here has a person who is always here reading and ready to protect it, or the person, from bad advice.

You just don't see much bad advice.

Different opinions on methods to get equal horticultural results, yes.

But very little running people off anymore...

And any bad advice gets checked.

People have people too.
PM somebody!
You won't be intentionally unanswered.

Ignore?

Smoke,
That's just 21 more people putting out bad advice that you can't check.
We count on that from you.

I went looking for a different V.W. quote about the ignore list...
Cuz I like his Gentleman's approach to it.

But this one works!



Man Up Smoke. (pretend Mic drop caught after 360 spin)

You created the Monster with the Vance Wood Thread in the first place....

You don't get to Ignore it!

Let's go beat up Adair....

Then when he's right, he can tag me and we'll beat you!

I thought you were WAY more fun.than. this!

Love you OLD bro!

Cheer the .fuck.up!

Grumpy sumbytch!

Sorce
Click to expand...
Sorce, Smoke has me on his ignore list.
 
Adair M said:
Sorce, Smoke has me on his ignore list.
Click to expand...

I know....

That's messed up.

A lot of good shit is stirred when you to argue.

Cuz you are both always right!

I spawned many ideas reading it.

I realized the other day...
That Boon is an Innovator.

Made me wonder how you became so, as I see, anti-innovate...?

Smoke does some hairbrain shit that Works for him...

You do what you do and it works.

Very similar, yet very different practitioners!

I never figured a guy who packs heat to demos to be so anti-confrontational....

Weak!

Like a pinched juniper!:p

Sorce
 
MichaelS said:
No I wouldn't say that exactly. But you acquired it because you like what someone else did to the trunk or you could use what someone else did to the trunk.
Not that it matters of course, but that is the reality. The bend in the trunk will remain forever. Thing is though, that's no big deal. You have well and truly put your mark on it. What irritates me is people who buy finished trees and own them for a while and then claim or are given total credit for producing it when all that they have done is maintain it. Some of these guys are even looked upon as masters because after a time, people forget that it was acquired that way. I don't lose any sleep over it though.
Click to expand...
Granted, I do have one or two trees that I bought because I liked them as they were. There's nothing wrong with that. It still takes considerable skill to maintain them.

I usually buy older trees that have been somewhat neglected.

Here, for example, is a 100 year old JBP I purchased. Who knows how many people before me have worked on it.

As purchased:

IMG_1931.JPG

As shown at BIB this past January:

IMG_0104.JPG

Not nearly as radical as the other one, but I think my work changed the tree for the better.
 
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