Textured pots for bonsai- what are your suggestions?

[HorseloverFat]

My opinion only….

What is considered to be “good” bonsai and a “good” bonsai pot have both evolved over time. In some ways more refined, in other ways more naturalistic, continuing to push the boundaries of one’s imagination and aesthetically tastes. That doesn’t mean the ‘old models’ of bonsai are gone, merely a springboard for future design.

One merely has to look at old bonsai photos to understand the radical change of what has changed over time. Again, IMOO the evolution of pot designs lagged…. I’m projecting now, due to pottery equipment and furnaces becoming available to hobbyists. As the price of equipment and type and availability of base materials has become more accessible in the past 20 years, the boundary ‘pushing’ has accelerate.

I look at the evolution of what is acceptable of both to continue, by fits and starts, to slowly evolve over the years.

That’s a reflection of human nature.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[NaoTK]

see now where the style of pots I made is not suitable for bonsai

This is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. There are no "no no" pots and no rules. We are debating about lofty ideas, best to ignore us

 

[penumbra]

This is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. There are no "no no" pots and no rules. We are debating about lofty ideas, best to ignore us

In a nutshell, yes. ^^^ but it is and always will be a personal thing with much contention. Such is our nature.

 

[rockm]

Like a lot of bonsai people just starting out, you're assuming "rules" exclude stuff. First, there really aren't any rules in bonsai, except "do what works." There are no 'forbidden" shapes, glazes, etc. for pots. What there is is a sensibility that needs to be applied to designs and details. I don't know if you're familiar with Wabi, Sabi, Yugen, Mono no aware, etc. If not, it's worth doing some research into them. All of those principles (Which surround a certain way of looking at things--transience, subtlety, etc.) are embodied in bonsai.

Non-traditional pots are very welcome in bonsai, BUT they have to work with the trees in them. Spectacular glazes are swell, but mostly useless with trees...This is an example of a non-traditional pot that I think works very well with the tree without screaming. It embodies what you see in canyons out west--with the subtle reds and browns of the cliffs in the background. It provides a background and base that contrasts with the tree without being loud...

 

[penumbra]

Like a lot of bonsai people just starting out, you're assuming "rules" exclude stuff. First, there really aren't any rules in bonsai, except "do what works." There are no 'forbidden" shapes, glazes, etc. for pots. What there is is a sensibility that needs to be applied to designs and details. I don't know if you're familiar with Wabi, Sabi, Yugen, Mono no aware, etc. If not, it's worth doing some research into them. All of those principles (Which surround a certain way of looking at things--transience, subtlety, etc.) are embodied in bonsai.

Non-traditional pots are very welcome in bonsai, BUT they have to work with the trees in them. Spectacular glazes are swell, but mostly useless with trees...This is an example of a non-traditional pot that I think works very well with the tree without screaming. It embodies what you see in canyons out west--with the subtle reds and browns of the cliffs in the background. It provides a background and base that contrasts with the tree without being loud...

I love the subtle colors of this pot and I think it is a really interesting piece, but I find the geometry distracting personally.

 

[rockm]

I love the subtle colors of this pot and I think it is a really interesting piece, but I find the geometry distracting personally.

To each their own. I used to live in Arizona when I was a kid. The geometry of the pot, 'fits' for me and gives a feel for rounded ledges, vertical canyon walls, etc.

Ron and a few other were working on similar structured pots a few years ago. Some of it works, some not so much, but they took a stab at it.

TheLAB | Pacific Bonsai Museum

pacificbonsaimuseum.org

 

[penumbra]

To each their own. I used to live in Arizona when I was a kid. The geometry of the pot, 'fits' for me and gives a feel for rounded ledges, vertical canyon walls, etc.

Ron and a few other were working on similar structured pots a few years ago. Some of it works, some not so much, but they took a stab at it.

TheLAB | Pacific Bonsai Museum

pacificbonsaimuseum.org

That's good, I'm sure many people like it and that is the purpose of art.
I think it is really interesting and it looks very well made, I just would not personally own it, though I do prefer it to the other pots on the link.

 

[Gaea's listener]

See.. This is where your always going to run into this issue from OTHERS..

By this SAME logic.. any structures or placed implements.. or ANYTHING that doesn't yield to, or MATCH "Bonsai"'s unflinchingly rigid set of rules.. is not "Bonsai"...

Buuuut in broad swings.. 'Bonsai' is just Japanese lipstick and kimonos on Chinese "Penjing Pigs".. (and the pigs put on Atkins)

So there will always be argument in SUITABILITY for things TERMED so (aforementioned) unflinchingly rigid.

I find..

That If my art, and the things I like to do, don't fit or satisfy a particular TERMINOLOGY... INSTEAD of attempting to alter MY work to fit the phrasing... One could look for alternate terminology.

I see what you mean and as much as it was not easy to learn this lesson, I appreciate the feedback everyone has given me here because I was able to let go of my ignorance. Even though pottery is my official trade for the last 30years, (to answer your previous question- I was born in Poland, but my name is actually originating from Jerusalem)

Pottery and clay in general has many branches, my training is in ceramics and garden sculpture rather then more structured craft of usable objects. I also like to challenge stiff beliefs and just stay creative, create from my heart's need to express itself and that can never be enclosed in formulas and terminology. At the same time, bonsai pot making is a new field to me and I have learned a lot from the experts here. It's worth while to keep on growing and challenging oneself and to do that, one needs to remain humble

-Izabela

 

[Gaea's listener]

This is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. There are no "no no" pots and no rules. We are debating about lofty ideas, best to ignore us

Thank you for saying this. Lol, ignorance is never my choice. Why would I ignore the very people who have been doing it for decades, especially after asking for suggestions? I only picked up bonsai 2 years ago and come from the nature lover perspective. To make my first cut was the toughest thing ever. I don't even know if my trees will survive the winter.

I appreciate the debate and it is educating. I'm not discouraged rather motivated to learn.

Next time I'll really think hard before committing so much energy into making something.
And these pots were fun to make, they are super cute and I still like them, I think they will find a loving home, for bonsai or a house plant

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Non traditional?


DSD sends

 

[Sansokuu]

We can't agree on the texture thing. An applied texture is art or crap. Mat texture is always crap. I think most pinch pots are crap but they are great for target practice.

Well, luckily the few pinch pots you’ve seen are hardly representative of all pinch pots in existence. Case in point pots by Juan Quezada who founded the whole Mata Ortiz pottery movement (their pots are 100% pinch pot/coil style hand built, not on a pottery wheel). Many tokoname potters who hand built pots use a pinch and coil method too.

My two cents is if you like a pot, does it matter if it has doilies impressed in the surface? Yes there is the strict traditional bonsai aesthetic, but unless a tree is being groomed for the kokofu, why not have some fun on your bench? Who is ultimately enjoying the tree(s) year round?

Maybe I should paint the Terminator on a pot next. As long as I glaze some of it green I’m sure Nao won’t object to me putting his favorite princess persimmon in it.

 

[Sansokuu]

Hello everyone,

I have been playing with creating an interesting texture for unglazed stoneware pots. I used multicoloured slips and oxides to create this effect.

My question is: are you drawn into them? Would you plant one of your trees in a pot like that? If so, what kind of a tree and what draws you into it? And if not, why not? I understand we all have difference sense of aesthetics and what appeals to some, doesn't necessary appeal to others and that is totally ok. I'm learning about esthetics of bonsai pots myself and while most of my trees are still in the nursery pots, I am in the process of designing and considering different things when it comes to choosing a pot.

I personally absolutely love your textures. They have a unique quality that doesn’t scream ‘look, I made a rock texture by using a rock’. Much of it looks very natural. You must have spent quite a lot of time on them.

The oxides are not overdone, and the one that looks like peeling pine park is my favorite. In terms of traditional bonsai pot, a lot of the folks in the traditional aesthetic have had their say. But bonsai trees represent a very tiny fraction of horticultural interests in the U.S. I could see pachypodium growers putting their several hundred/thousand dollar plants in a large version of that pot. Instead of sticking to rounds, you could have the textures as the rim (like the non round pot you have, but the flat bottom is detracting from that lovely texture - I would keep the right side of that profile image on its own and extend the texture toward the bottom too, the different forms and textures on the left side are also distracting, and not contributing to a cohesive look).

I encourage you to keep dabbling in what you’re current doing. I would love to see just a few ‘chunks’ of that texture for example in something palm sized (and keep the straight lines out of the composition - if you are going to go full texture go FULL TEXTURE not just on surface but form too! ), what fun kusamono that could be! Kusamono might be more your jam for these pots because there is a lot less traditionally stuffiness with their containers than with the bonsai trees.

Honestly, I think you have a super hot thing on your hands if you go with crescent shapes or flat planes for the form instead of rounds. If your goal is an organic look go full tilt.

 

[penumbra]

I see what you mean and as much as it was not easy to learn this lesson, I appreciate the feedback everyone has given me here because I was able to let go of my ignorance. Even though pottery is my official trade for the last 30years, (to answer your previous question- I was born in Poland, but my name is actually originating from Jerusalem)

Pottery and clay in general has many branches, my training is in ceramics and garden sculpture rather then more structured craft of usable objects. I also like to challenge stiff beliefs and just stay creative, create from my heart's need to express itself and that can never be enclosed in formulas and terminology. At the same time, bonsai pot making is a new field to me and I have learned a lot from the experts here. It's worth while to keep on growing and challenging oneself and to do that, one needs to remain humble

-Izabela

If you have a garden center nearby you could sell many of them for succulents and such. It is a huge market and succulents are very in right now. I have sold many many pots in my stone age style as hanging baskets and succulent and houseplant tray. For this use you have a lot more latitude. Probably 80-85% of my planters are not for bonsai. Thing is, bonsai pots being a specialty, bring more money per ounce of clay by a large margin. Best of luck to you.

 

[penumbra]

Well, luckily the few pinch pots you’ve seen are hardly representative of all pinch pots in existence. Case in point pots by Juan Quezada who founded the whole Mata Ortiz pottery movement (their pots are 100% pinch pot/coil style hand built, not on a pottery wheel). Many tokoname potters who hand built pots use a pinch and coil method too.

My two cents is if you like a pot, does it matter if it has doilies impressed in the surface? Yes there is the strict traditional bonsai aesthetic, but unless a tree is being groomed for the kokofu, why not have some fun on your bench? Who is ultimately enjoying the tree(s) year round?

Maybe I should paint the Terminator on a pot next. As long as I glaze some of it green I’m sure Nao won’t object to me putting his favorite princess persimmon in it.

Best not to make assumptions. I have taught classes for young people and old that have resulted in hundreds of pinch pots. And when you have seen hundreds of pinch pots you will quickly see that most are pretty crappy. Yes, I have seen magnificent ones too. I have imported and sold several high dollar pinch pots from Japan.
A pinch and coil pot is a hybrid and quite different from a pinch pot. Some magnificent works have thus been made and I have seen demonstrations and workshops that were based solely upon this hybrid art form. Some of these were huge pieces. It was the traditional method used in Southeast Asia for centuries since the migration of potters set up by porcelain deposits along the Red River in Vietnam during China's Song Dynasty, 960 - 1279 AD. Of course the method is much older than that and was practiced prolifically in China's Neolithic Period in several places but most significantly along the Yellow and Yangtze rivers and resultant peninsulas. The art probably probably predates most known pottery archeological sites and there is a pretty strong indication that the Hongshan culture, more widely known for its jade carvings, was making coil / pinch hybrid pots 8,000 years ago. I have a few neolithic pieces that are about 3,000 years old.
I used to have a significant number of Mata Ortiz pots but I sold them long ago except for one piece that is in my collection. If this was a pottery thread and not about bonsai pots I would be inclined to post some picts.
I think your assessment of the OPs pots is accurate, appropriate and supportive.

 

[Sansokuu]

If this was a pottery thread and not about bonsai pots I would be inclined to post some picts.
I think your assessment of the OPs pots is accurate, appropriate and supportive.

Apologies for assuming! Being a ceramic artist first and bonsai potter last, it sounded a little harsh to call most pinch pots crappy. I admit I was a smidge offended . But I have also made less than impressive pinch pots. I probably wouldn’t use them as a shooting target though, those end up holding keys or pens lol.

Well, now I’m inclined to clamor for a non-bonsai pot clay thread. I’m new here, is there a completely random non-bonsai forum category we can chat about all things clay?

 

[penumbra]

it sounded a little harsh to call most pinch pots crappy. I admit I was a smidge offended

.........it may have been a little harsh but it is never my intent to offend.
............still, I make no apology for offering an opinion and I don't expect that from you
.................its all good, a process of sharing, thus learning.

 

[Stella]

I absolutely love your post. i would certainly buy them for my trees.
It is unique and looks so natural

 

[Gaea's listener]

I personally absolutely love your textures. They have a unique quality that doesn’t scream ‘look, I made a rock texture by using a rock’. Much of it looks very natural. You must have spent quite a lot of time on them.

The oxides are not overdone, and the one that looks like peeling pine park is my favorite. In terms of traditional bonsai pot, a lot of the folks in the traditional aesthetic have had their say. But bonsai trees represent a very tiny fraction of horticultural interests in the U.S. I could see pachypodium growers putting their several hundred/thousand dollar plants in a large version of that pot. Instead of sticking to rounds, you could have the textures as the rim (like the non round pot you have, but the flat bottom is detracting from that lovely texture - I would keep the right side of that profile image on its own and extend the texture toward the bottom too, the different forms and textures on the left side are also distracting, and not contributing to a cohesive look).

I encourage you to keep dabbling in what you’re current doing. I would love to see just a few ‘chunks’ of that texture for example in something palm sized (and keep the straight lines out of the composition - if you are going to go full texture go FULL TEXTURE not just on surface but form too! ), what fun kusamono that could be! Kusamono might be more your jam for these pots because there is a lot less traditionally stuffiness with their containers than with the bonsai trees.

Honestly, I think you have a super hot thing on your hands if you go with crescent shapes or flat planes for the form instead of rounds. If your goal is an organic look go full tilt.

Thank you for putting the time to share your perspective and critique of the pots. I see what you mean in that to go all in with texture and apply this towards the shape too. Thank you for sharing about kusamono, that is a great idea. I think someone will find a cool cactus or succulent to plant in them, they will go to my etsy page soon.

It was fun to try something different and I enjoy learning and creating when inspired. I can tell you know how much work and energy goes towards art, I think people who spent many years training and doing it can understand. For me, it was a cool experiment to play and try different clays, leave it unglazed and see what will happen. It is so uplifting to have met other artists who showed me support and encouragement, I really appreciate it

All the best,

Izabela

 

[penumbra]

I like them because they do say "look, I am altered by human hands" and have more of a surreal than a natural appearance.
I especially like the smaller one on top. It shows a stronger intent.
Have fun and carry on.

 

[Gaea's listener]

If you have a garden center nearby you could sell many of them for succulents and such. It is a huge market and succulents are very in right now. I have sold many many pots in my stone age style as hanging baskets and succulent and houseplant tray. For this use you have a lot more latitude. Probably 80-85% of my planters are not for bonsai. Thing is, bonsai pots being a specialty, bring more money per ounce of clay by a large margin. Best of luck to you.

that is a very good idea, thank you for suggesting. I really appreciate your support and encouragement. That is so true with the bonsai pots, they also require most work and energy to put into a good product so it only makes sense. The quality of the bonsai pot needs to be higher, that's just the nature of the art, isn't it. If someone invests thousands of $ in the tree, the pots needs to meet that high standard too.
Once again, thanks so much for your guidance