Textured pots for bonsai- what are your suggestions?

[rockm]

I am working on an ABS article including my perspectives on bonsai pots like these. Submitted with respect

I want to make bonsai pots that are beautiful and work well with trees, but I have a narrow definition of what is beautiful. I use the words real and fake to summarize my thoughts. Real beauty arises without intention, it comes from nature acting upon a bonsai pot. Sometimes the kiln flame will hit a pot and alter the glaze surface. That is beautiful. A round pot might warp out of round just a little. Also beautiful. These kinds of pots are the best for pairing with bonsai trees, which are also formed by man and acted on by nature. Beauty can also be faked through the manual manipulation of shape, clay surface, or by manually layering glazes, but this kind of beauty always feels intentional. An object need not be imperfect to be beautiful, but it must not have been made with the intent of being beautiful. A practitioner of beauty feels and knows this distinction, whereas anyone can be trained to recognize an academic consensus of beauty. So the challenge becomes applying this idea of beauty to a precise bonsai pot. An unglazed Gyozan is beautiful because the forces of nature acted on it in the kiln. The crisp edges deformed in unpredictable ways and the kiln atmosphere made the color non-uniform. What started as a pot made by a human became a product of nature and you can feel it’s beauty.

THIS...

 

[Gaea's listener]

I am working on an ABS article including my perspectives on bonsai pots like these. Submitted with respect

I want to make bonsai pots that are beautiful and work well with trees, but I have a narrow definition of what is beautiful. I use the words real and fake to summarize my thoughts. Real beauty arises without intention, it comes from nature acting upon a bonsai pot. Sometimes the kiln flame will hit a pot and alter the glaze surface. That is beautiful. A round pot might warp out of round just a little. Also beautiful. These kinds of pots are the best for pairing with bonsai trees, which are also formed by man and acted on by nature. Beauty can also be faked through the manual manipulation of shape, clay surface, or by manually layering glazes, but this kind of beauty always feels intentional. An object need not be imperfect to be beautiful, but it must not have been made with the intent of being beautiful. A practitioner of beauty feels and knows this distinction, whereas anyone can be trained to recognize an academic consensus of beauty. So the challenge becomes applying this idea of beauty to a precise bonsai pot. An unglazed Gyozan is beautiful because the forces of nature acted on it in the kiln. The crisp edges deformed in unpredictable ways and the kiln atmosphere made the color non-uniform. What started as a pot made by a human became a product of nature and you can feel it’s beauty.

You mentioned that you have a narrow definition of beauty- isn't that the nature of definition?

Nature does not know beauty or ugliness for they exist only in a human mind. What happens in nature is a result of elements and cause and effect for the purpose of constant change and evolution.

When we perceive certain things as beautiful, other become ugly.

I was contemplating this ancient wisdom when walking amongst the trees in the woods and saw a dog's poop. Then my mind went: "Eww!" and here it was. My narrow definition of beauty coming from nature shattered, because the process of elimination digested food is also nature.

 

[HorseloverFat]

the design seems suiting for a mini forest,

This was Definitely the plan...

The scale wouldn't suite larger trees..

But KNOWING that....

...one could.. adjust.. to make a similar design at larger scale.

 

[NaoTK]

This is an excellent a well reasoned post and I am in nearly complete agreement. These are the very reasons I prefer raku, sagger and pit firing, but unfortunately these are unacceptable for planter use.
The highlighted phase above in red is where I disagree. All of these things mentioned can be done in a predictable fashion or an unpredictable fashion. I have experienced a hundred times the unexpected results of layering glazes that thrilled be every bit as much as pulling a piece from a raku kiln, sagger or pit. Many of my favorite glazed pieces were happenstance and many the results of re-glazing. They will never happen again in exactly the same way. The same can be said for experimenting with textures etc. Not only do these pieces not feel intentional but it is the artists prerogative, and in my case duty, to create pieces that do not look contrived.

Thanks for your response, good discussion in this thread. I get what you are saying about the unpredictable nature of those techniques. My point is if I can look at a pot and say "I see he applied texture, and added iron oxide" then it doesn't pass the test of intent. Or if you can tell that two glazes were layered, that shows intent. If however you roll out slabs and make a rectangle bonsai pot and you keep the natural woven mat texture, and paddle marks, and tool marks, that is enough to be beautiful. We don't have to go that extra step of adding texture. Pinch pots (like raku tea bowls) are beautiful because you naturally create texture as the pot is being formed, there is no act of texturing.

 

[rockm]

You mentioned that you have a narrow definition of beauty- isn't that the nature of definition?

Nature does not know beauty or ugliness for they exist only in a human mind. What happens in nature is a result of elements and cause and effect for the purpose of constant change and evolution.

When we perceive certain things as beautiful, other become ugly.

I was contemplating this ancient wisdom when walking amongst the trees in the woods and saw a dog's poop. Then my mind went: "Eww!" and here it was. My narrow definition of beauty coming from nature shattered, because the process of elimination digested food is also nature.

Don't fall for the fairy tale--bonsai is NOT natural.

It is man made --made to appeal to humans.

Bonsai is a contrived view of nature. Everything in it is man made or influenced--there are no "natural" bonsai. Even the best collected trees are manipulated, pruned and snipped to appeal to the human eye. As you say nature doesn't know beauty, but man does. There wouldn't be bonsai without humans' sense of beauty....That is its appeal.

Many natural things are simply inherently unappealing to the human eye--it's the way the brain works. We strive to get rid of those things in the process of making a bonsai--from removing entire tops of trees, cutting off crossing branches, bar branches, grafting roots, new limbs, gluing on fruit for exhibitions (a very long tradition in Japanese shows), the list goes on.

 

[Gaea's listener]

Well, here's the thing. Good bonsai pots are not dull. Quite the contrary. The best bonsai potters have learned how to thread the needle of artistic expression and functionality. It's not easy to do, it's a challenge.

Look at what past excellent potters have done and those that are working now. Do a search on Don Gould, Bryan Albright, Horst Heinzelreiter, Ron Lang, Sara Rayner, Nick Lenz to name a few. Their work is NOT dull, but the pots they make, or have made, are VERY useable with actual trees.

@rockm- thank you for your clarification.
I meant dull in terms of colour shades of the glaze. Colourful and extraordinary glaze effects are very attractive, but can also be overstimulating. Simple form and toned down glazes or unglazed clay can be extremely attractive but some people had to first undergo a certain phase of excitement about creating first. The appreciation of the simplicity comes also from the discipline of the mind. I recognize my own need for such discipline and I thank you for suggesting the mentioned names of the potters.

 

[penumbra]

Thanks for your response, good discussion in this thread. I get what you are saying about the unpredictable nature of those techniques. My point is if I can look at a pot and say "I see he applied texture, and added iron oxide" then it doesn't pass the test of intent. Or if you can tell that two glazes were layered, that shows intent. If however you roll out slabs and make a rectangle bonsai pot and you keep the natural woven mat texture, and paddle marks, and tool marks, that is enough to be beautiful. We don't have to go that extra step of adding texture. Pinch pots (like raku tea bowls) are beautiful because you naturally create texture as the pot is being formed, there is no act of texturing.

We can't agree on the texture thing. An applied texture is art or crap. Mat texture is always crap. I think most pinch pots are crap but they are great for target practice. Obviously in the eye of the beholder, and we are fortunate that there are so many beholders. And if we want to make pottery we have to be thankful for those beholders whether we agree or not.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thanks for your response, good discussion in this thread. I get what you are saying about the unpredictable nature of those techniques. My point is if I can look at a pot and say "I see he applied texture, and added iron oxide" then it doesn't pass the test of intent. Or if you can tell that two glazes were layered, that shows intent. If however you roll out slabs and make a rectangle bonsai pot and you keep the natural woven mat texture, and paddle marks, and tool marks, that is enough to be beautiful. We don't have to go that extra step of adding texture. Pinch pots (like raku tea bowls) are beautiful because you naturally create texture as the pot is being formed, there is no act of texturing.

Wow…. I just have two words and two photos to say by showing a tree I got to work with before the New Year …

Nick Lenz

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Gaea's listener]

Thanks for your response, good discussion in this thread. I get what you are saying about the unpredictable nature of those techniques. My point is if I can look at a pot and say "I see he applied texture, and added iron oxide" then it doesn't pass the test of intent. Or if you can tell that two glazes were layered, that shows intent. If however you roll out slabs and make a rectangle bonsai pot and you keep the natural woven mat texture, and paddle marks, and tool marks, that is enough to be beautiful. We don't have to go that extra step of adding texture. Pinch pots (like raku tea bowls) are beautiful because you naturally create texture as the pot is being formed, there is no act of texturing.

If we discuss beautiful, it will always be a subjective opinion of an individual, because what you consider beautiful, others may perceive as ugly. I wonder if changing the term into "harmonious aesthetics of bonsai pots" would be a better term to consider for your article?

It is interesting what you mentioned about textured marks. In a pottery group I'm a part of someone made a pot with finger marks and received comments about how ugly it is, yet, they were intentional to show the mark of creation by a human hand. Many people would buy this pot only because they value to see the mark of a human vs factory made items.

If however you roll out slabs and make a rectangle bonsai pot and you keep the natural woven mat texture, and paddle marks, and tool marks, that is enough to be beautiful. We don't have to go that extra step of adding texture
If only what comes from "natural" elements would be considered beautiful- is not a human being and their ability to use their creativity part of the nature as well?

 

[HorseloverFat]

EITHER WAY!

 

[NaoTK]

This pot looks like it was carved out of clay to look like wood. The intent was to make it look like wood, but it never will look like wood. I admire the time and craftsmanship that went into it, but I just see a pot that failed to look like wood.

 

[penumbra]

It is an absolutely stunning combination.

 

[rockm]

This pot looks like it was carved out of clay to look like wood. The intent was to make it look like wood, but it never will look like wood. I admire the time and craftsmanship that went into it, but I just see a pot that failed to look like wood.

View attachment 418718

Pot is carved with snakes...not to look like wood really...it was done, from what Lenz said in his book (if my creaky memory serves) the pot was made to emphasize the bonsai which is designed to look like a beseeching demon.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

When a person is surrounded by beauty, yet can’t feel the caress of its hand on the soul, life can never be whole….

Best

DSD sends

 

[penumbra]

When a person is surrounded by beauty, yet can’t feel the caress of its hand on the soul, life can never be whole….

Best

DSD sends

View attachment 418726

Wow! That is another stunning composition using another pot that is a no no.

 

[River's Edge]

Texture itself can create an interesting reflection of the tree characteristics without becoming the focal point. Some of the traditional look " nanban" illustrate this very well. Another good example is some of the work by Sarah Rayner. Nicely done it can reflect age and a natural setting. I do feel it is important to pay particular attention to function and design to suit the purposes of Bonsai.
Admittedly I lean towards the traditional and recognize the beauty in that approach.

 

[Gaea's listener]

Thank you everyone for your input. I see now why my pots are "too loud" and colourful, in terms of texture. I also understand the shape limitations.

Wow, this has been a tremendous learning experience and clarified a lot for me. I checked out the mentioned pots by Saray Rayner and see now where the style of pots I made is not suitable for bonsai.

- Izabela

 

[HorseloverFat]

Thank you everyone for your input. I see now why my pots are "too loud" and colourful, in terms of texture. I also understand the shape limitations.

Wow, this has been a tremendous learning experience and clarified a lot for me. I checked out the mentioned pots by Saray Rayner and see now where the style of pots I made is not suitable for bonsai.

- Izabela

I noticed the spelling of your name.

I have seen this spelling in Egyptian/Grecian/Turkish Americans.. And also Central and South Americans.. neat!

 

[HorseloverFat]

not suitable for bonsai.

See.. This is where your always going to run into this issue from OTHERS..

By this SAME logic.. any structures or placed implements.. or ANYTHING that doesn't yield to, or MATCH "Bonsai"'s unflinchingly rigid set of rules.. is not "Bonsai"...

Buuuut in broad swings.. 'Bonsai' is just Japanese lipstick and kimonos on Chinese "Penjing Pigs".. (and the pigs put on Atkins)

So there will always be argument in SUITABILITY for things TERMED so (aforementioned) unflinchingly rigid.

I find..

That If my art, and the things I like to do, don't fit or satisfy a particular TERMINOLOGY... INSTEAD of attempting to alter MY work to fit the phrasing... One could look for alternate terminology.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

My opinion only….

What is considered to be “good” bonsai and a “good” bonsai pot have both evolved over time. In some ways more refined, in other ways more naturalistic, continuing to push the boundaries of one’s imagination and aesthetically tastes. That doesn’t mean the ‘old models’ of bonsai are gone, merely a springboard for future design.

One merely has to look at old bonsai photos to understand the radical change of what has changed over time. Again, IMOO the evolution of pot designs lagged…. I’m projecting now, due to pottery equipment and furnaces becoming available to hobbyists. As the price of equipment and type and availability of base materials has become more accessible in the past 20 years, the boundary ‘pushing’ has accelerate.

I look at the evolution of what is acceptable of both to continue, by fits and starts, to slowly evolve over the years.

That’s a reflection of human nature.

cheers
DSD sends