Textured pots for bonsai- what are your suggestions?

[Gaea's listener]

Hello everyone,

I have been playing with creating an interesting texture for unglazed stoneware pots. I used multicoloured slips and oxides to create this effect.

My question is: are you drawn into them? Would you plant one of your trees in a pot like that? If so, what kind of a tree and what draws you into it? And if not, why not? I understand we all have difference sense of aesthetics and what appeals to some, doesn't necessary appeal to others and that is totally ok. I'm learning about esthetics of bonsai pots myself and while most of my trees are still in the nursery pots, I am in the process of designing and considering different things when it comes to choosing a pot.

I'm pretty happy with the way they turned out and I can see myself potting a juniper into the dark brown one, but my juniper is too big to fit into this pot at this moment, it would have to go through few years of gradual reduction of the root mass.

Thank you so much for your consideration.

 

[Huggz13]

Hello everyone,

I have been playing with creating an interesting texture for unglazed stoneware pots. I used multicoloured slips and oxides to create this effect.

My question is: are you drawn into them? Would you plant one of your trees in a pot like that? If so, what kind of a tree and what draws you into it? And if not, why not? I understand we all have difference sense of aesthetics and what appeals to some, doesn't necessary appeal to others and that is totally ok. I'm learning about esthetics of bonsai pots myself and while most of my trees are still in the nursery pots, I am in the process of designing and considering different things when it comes to choosing a pot.

I'm pretty happy with the way they turned out and I can see myself potting a juniper into the dark brown one, but my juniper is too big to fit into this pot at this moment, it would have to go through few years of gradual reduction of the root mass.

Thank you so much for your consideration.

I LOVE THEM!
Looks like bark!

I’d use them and buy them.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I would plant a cactus in one of these. That is about it.

Is it better to not say anything at all, or give an honest opinion?
Bonsai has an aesthetic. Refinement and understatement are key. The pot should not draw attention to itself. The pot sets the stage, lifts, supports and should visually disappear as one looks at the tree. Lumpy pots that are not quite round are a distraction. They fail in that they call attention to the pot, not the tree. Take a serious look at exhibition quality Japanese bonsai pots. Look at the clean lines, subtle lines, and masterful execution. These pots look deliberately primitive, in terms of childish, without looking primitive in terms of being antique.

Sorry to be harsh. But how else is one to learn.

 

[Huggz13]

I would plant a cactus in one of these. That is about it.

Is it better to not say anything at all, or give an honest opinion?
Bonsai has an aesthetic. Refinement and understatement are key. The pot should not draw attention to itself. The pot sets the stage, lifts, supports and should visually disappear as one looks at the tree. Lumpy pots that are not quite round are a distraction. They fail in that they call attention to the pot, not the tree. Take a serious look at exhibition quality Japanese bonsai pots. Look at the clean lines, subtle lines, and masterful execution. These pots look deliberately primitive, in terms of childish, without looking primitive in terms of being antique.

Sorry to be harsh. But how else is one to learn.

Honest opinions are good, but I think your comment is unnecessarily harsh.
Saying they’re “childish” is a bit much in my opinion.

My grandfather once told me when I was a young man that “it’s commendable to call a spade a spade, but not to call it a f*****g shovel.”

If a bonsai tree is not for exhibition, but rather simply for one’s own enjoyment, then why does it matter if the pot doesn’t traditional bonsai aesthetics?

 

[rockm]

I'd have to agree with Leo. Textured pots are very hard to use. They are all about themselves and not about the tree in them. Yeah, the texture looks like bark, but so DOES THE BARK ON THE TREE. The pot shouldn't compete with the tree. It should support the tree physically and visually.

Potters new to bonsai don't immediately get their work is a complimentary role, not a primary role. It can be a tough lesson to learn. The best bonsai potters understand that with a bonsai pot (to use an overused saying) "less is more."

 

[Huggz13]

I'd have to agree with Leo. Textured pots are very hard to use. They are all about themselves and not about the tree in them. Yeah, the texture looks like bark, but so DOES THE BARK ON THE TREE. The pot shouldn't compete with the tree. It should support the tree physically and visually.

Potters new to bonsai don't immediately get their work is a complimentary role, not a primary role. It can be a tough lesson to learn. The best bonsai potters understand that with a bonsai pot (to use an overused saying) "less is more."

I understand what you’re saying.

But again, same question.
If a tree is not for exhibition then what does it matter if the pot does not meet traditional aesthetic guidelines?
Or what a pot SHOULD or SHOULD’NT do?
Or if it competes with the tree?
Or if it’s bright orange with purple flowers on it?
Or if it’s in the shape of a Baby Yoda head?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I agree mildly with Leo, however.. If these pots would be overgrown with lichen and moss, they would mimic a forest floor and in my opinion could be incorporated in a naturalistic 'floor pad' for a plant. Much like a stone or a slab would.
I'm personally not a fan of pots that have inward curved walls because they require a bunch of sawing to get a plant out. Lot of risk of breakage. The rim is a bit high for my taste.

My personal preference aside, I think we as a community haven't reached the point where we can respectfully discuss whether we're doing Japanese bonsai, or some other type of bonsai that allows some more artistic freedom. I think so because most Bonsai professionals are Japanese trained and most critiques come from a heavily Japanese point of view, heck, they're the main exporters and they've refined it for centuries. I also think so because we have the discussion annually and still haven't reached any concensus or stalemates where we just agree to disagree.
There is some experimentation going on with some westerners, but as always with traditional craft, arts and traditional schooling, there's a lot of resistance. I freaking hate that Mirai spruce slapped on a piece of rusty metal. Not because the tree is bad, or the metalwork itself, but it hurts my eyes and the composition just.. Feels uneasy. I know Ryan probably loves the fact that people either love it or hate it with little in between; it provokes. Which makes it more art than just bonsai. I respect that, but I still hate it. In and around my city there's a lot of that abstract metal art and I've always thought them to be eye sores. Today I commissioned a copy of a octopus pot and people are going to hate it. I love that. Maybe I'll hate it too. That's fine.

I'm from the school of thought "If it works well, it just works well". If someone can make it work, it'll work.

 

[Gaea's listener]

I LOVE THEM!
Looks like bark!

I’d use them and buy them.

than you for your feedback, I was aiming for bark. It is very encouraging to hear that

 

[Gaea's listener]

I would plant a cactus in one of these. That is about it.

Is it better to not say anything at all, or give an honest opinion?
Bonsai has an aesthetic. Refinement and understatement are key. The pot should not draw attention to itself. The pot sets the stage, lifts, supports and should visually disappear as one looks at the tree. Lumpy pots that are not quite round are a distraction. They fail in that they call attention to the pot, not the tree. Take a serious look at exhibition quality Japanese bonsai pots. Look at the clean lines, subtle lines, and masterful execution. These pots look deliberately primitive, in terms of childish, without looking primitive in terms of being antique.

Sorry to be harsh. But how else is one to learn.

I asked for opinion and I'm grateful to you for sharing your perspective.

I'm glad you perceived how childish and playful they look as I was having lots of fun making them, playing. Not attempting to imitate anique.

 

[penumbra]

I like you pots very much and they do look very well made. I agree that the curved inward lip is not a good thing practically or visually for bonsai. They don't really say bonsai to me though, and that's ok because there are people who say the same about the pots I make. I make them and I sell them and I see more and more people all the time experimenting with pots made in this vein. I say carry on .... see where it takes you friend.

 

[Gaea's listener]

I'd have to agree with Leo. Textured pots are very hard to use. They are all about themselves and not about the tree in them. Yeah, the texture looks like bark, but so DOES THE BARK ON THE TREE. The pot shouldn't compete with the tree. It should support the tree physically and visually.

Potters new to bonsai don't immediately get their work is a complimentary role, not a primary role. It can be a tough lesson to learn. The best bonsai potters understand that with a bonsai pot (to use an overused saying) "less is more."

I agree, it is a hard lesson to learn because we want to create something unique. Traditional, dull glazed pots seem not as appealing to make

 

[Gaea's listener]

I like you pots very much and they do look very well made. I agree that the curved inward lip is not a good thing practically or visually for bonsai. They don't really say bonsai to me though, and that's ok because there are people who say the same about the pots I make. I make them and I sell them and I see more and more people all the time experimenting with pots made in this vein. I say carry on .... see where it takes you friend.
View attachment 418678

thank you for your encouragement, the bronze on your pots shines like gold and the texture is fantastic. I'm glad to hear that people are enjoying them. Nothing more full filing for an artist that being able to share their gift of artistic expression with those who appreciate it

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Gaea's listener - You are right, I was in a "mood" I could have toned it down. I do have some rough textured pots, at the time i commented I was "locked" into my idea of "Japanese Bonsai" and of course, I'm not Japanese, and don't live in Japan. So I was "coming out of left field." rather than my usual more measured self. I apologize.

The bag shape mentioned by @penumbra - meaning a pot with the incurved lip is a definite horticulture problem. Roots will circle the widest part of the pot, making for problems when repotting. It is common to go 3 to 5 years between repotting sometimes more, which means roots can get woody and quite difficult to get out of a pot that has in-sloping walls.

I understand what you’re saying.

But again, same question.
If a tree is not for exhibition then what does it matter if the pot does not meet traditional aesthetic guidelines?
Or what a pot SHOULD or SHOULD’NT do?
Or if it competes with the tree?
Or if it’s bright orange with purple flowers on it?
Or if it’s in the shape of a Baby Yoda head?

If a tree is not for exhibition, I try to have it in a pot similar in shape to the pot planned for future exhibition. That way the transplant just before the exhibition will not be traumatic. Often there is a several year plan for a tree, and the pot choice is not "random". If a tree is simply for my own enjoyment, then you are right, nothing really matters. Utilitarian plastic pots work if they are not visually offensive. I like low round pots, as these allow you to observe the tree from all sides, in order to do styling and planning. You can temporarily change "front view" without having to disturb roots. I use a lot of chop sticks and golf tees as markers for future possible "fronts" for future designs.

I will enjoy a glance at a Yoda Head chia pet, or Obama Head, good for a chuckle. Once I was old enough that my acne cleared up, that sort of visual humor stopped holding my attention long enough to actually water a chia pet to keep it growing.

 

[NaoTK]

I am working on an ABS article including my perspectives on bonsai pots like these. Submitted with respect

I want to make bonsai pots that are beautiful and work well with trees, but I have a narrow definition of what is beautiful. I use the words real and fake to summarize my thoughts. Real beauty arises without intention, it comes from nature acting upon a bonsai pot. Sometimes the kiln flame will hit a pot and alter the glaze surface. That is beautiful. A round pot might warp out of round just a little. Also beautiful. These kinds of pots are the best for pairing with bonsai trees, which are also formed by man and acted on by nature. Beauty can also be faked through the manual manipulation of shape, clay surface, or by manually layering glazes, but this kind of beauty always feels intentional. An object need not be imperfect to be beautiful, but it must not have been made with the intent of being beautiful. A practitioner of beauty feels and knows this distinction, whereas anyone can be trained to recognize an academic consensus of beauty. So the challenge becomes applying this idea of beauty to a precise bonsai pot. An unglazed Gyozan is beautiful because the forces of nature acted on it in the kiln. The crisp edges deformed in unpredictable ways and the kiln atmosphere made the color non-uniform. What started as a pot made by a human became a product of nature and you can feel it’s beauty.

 

[HorseloverFat]

I've taken this texture experimentation dive recently..
Learned a lot.. especially conversing with others.

It's alot of learning your "passes" with texture.. there can be MANY layers WITHIN your texture if you just take the time to KNOW "that" texture... and remaining consistent THROUGHOUT the piece with those same passes (utilizing different materials, of course) to create those same distinct layers...
(This is something Penumbra taught me through conversation, inquiry and studying his work )

Now my textured methodology ends up leaning towards this "Hybridization" work, that I have been doing more and more of, that is a direct marriage of the aforementioned skills brought on by my Penumbra-induced texture dive, and also my Structure/Penjing/Penzai Work.

The weird mutant child looks like this piece... It's not done.. I still have dry work left.. but if you notice, I tried to represent TWO distinct Formations.. one Igneous.. One Sedimentary.. there are a few Volcanic-protrusion esque stones to fill one end for contrast.. but mainly those two rocks.. It was important to keep those passes/patterns/ideas consistent THROUGHout those "sections".

(First pic is dark.. but it's the "front".. so best conveys what I was speaking of)


These are SOME of the natural items I used In this/these texture/s.

 

[penumbra]

Nothing more full filing for an artist that being able to share their gift of artistic expression with those who appreciate it

Truer words were never spoken.

 

[Gaea's listener]

@Gaea's listener - You are right, I was in a "mood" I could have toned it down. I do have some rough textured pots, at the time i commented I was "locked" into my idea of "Japanese Bonsai" and of course, I'm not Japanese, and don't live in Japan. So I was "coming out of left field." rather than my usual more measured self. I apologize.

The bag shape mentioned by @penumbra - meaning a pot with the incurved lip is a definite horticulture problem. Roots will circle the widest part of the pot, making for problems when repotting. It is common to go 3 to 5 years between repotting sometimes more, which means roots can get woody and quite difficult to get out of a pot that has in-sloping walls.



If a tree is not for exhibition, I try to have it in a pot similar in shape to the pot planned for future exhibition. That way the transplant just before the exhibition will not be traumatic. Often there is a several year plan for a tree, and the pot choice is not "random". If a tree is simply for my own enjoyment, then you are right, nothing really matters. Utilitarian plastic pots work if they are not visually offensive. I like low round pots, as these allow you to observe the tree from all sides, in order to do styling and planning. You can temporarily change "front view" without having to disturb roots. I use a lot of chop sticks and golf tees as markers for future possible "fronts" for future designs.

I will enjoy a glance at a Yoda Head chia pet, or Obama Head, good for a chuckle. Once I was old enough that my acne cleared up, that sort of visual humor stopped holding my attention long enough to actually water a chia pet to keep it growing.

no hard feelings @leo, it is very cool you were able to self reflect on that so quickly. Opinions and beliefs can be stiffening. I practice observing my mind from the distance as it wants to defend an idea and I also like to challenge my beliefs. Your comment pointed me towards my own stiff beliefs and showed me some self- harmful thought patterns I can now heal and change. Experience like this is invaluable, otherwise they would remain unconscious and I'd be their slave unknowingly. Therefore, I am grateful.

I have studied the bonsai art enough in the last 2 years to realize what it is "supposed" to look like for the classical look, that's why I asked for what people are feeling personally knowing very well my pots don't look like they're "supposed to".

I much appreciate you sharing your personal experience with your trees and now understand the curved lip more too. I was on defence about it because someone who doesn't wire told me they prefer it and it made sense to me when the pot's lip was "hugging" my tree to not let it be blown away by the wind. From your story I can see that the hardened roots would be no fun to cut, I just don't have the experience to actually live it, so that is a valuable lesson.

It's funny because I made these pots for the jade plants but somehow can not see them in them so I never planted them. That's why I was curious if anyone could see a tree in a pot like that.

 

[penumbra]

I am working on an ABS article including my perspectives on bonsai pots like these. Submitted with respect

I want to make bonsai pots that are beautiful and work well with trees, but I have a narrow definition of what is beautiful. I use the words real and fake to summarize my thoughts. Real beauty arises without intention, it comes from nature acting upon a bonsai pot. Sometimes the kiln flame will hit a pot and alter the glaze surface. That is beautiful. A round pot might warp out of round just a little. Also beautiful. These kinds of pots are the best for pairing with bonsai trees, which are also formed by man and acted on by nature. Beauty can also be faked through the manual manipulation of shape, clay surface, or by manually layering glazes, but this kind of beauty always feels intentional. An object need not be imperfect to be beautiful, but it must not have been made with the intent of being beautiful. A practitioner of beauty feels and knows this distinction, whereas anyone can be trained to recognize an academic consensus of beauty. So the challenge becomes applying this idea of beauty to a precise bonsai pot. An unglazed Gyozan is beautiful because the forces of nature acted on it in the kiln. The crisp edges deformed in unpredictable ways and the kiln atmosphere made the color non-uniform. What started as a pot made by a human became a product of nature and you can feel it’s beauty.

This is an excellent a well reasoned post and I am in nearly complete agreement. These are the very reasons I prefer raku, sagger and pit firing, but unfortunately these are unacceptable for planter use.
The highlighted phase above in red is where I disagree. All of these things mentioned can be done in a predictable fashion or an unpredictable fashion. I have experienced a hundred times the unexpected results of layering glazes that thrilled be every bit as much as pulling a piece from a raku kiln, sagger or pit. Many of my favorite glazed pieces were happenstance and many the results of re-glazing. They will never happen again in exactly the same way. The same can be said for experimenting with textures etc. Not only do these pieces not feel intentional but it is the artists prerogative, and in my case duty, to create pieces that do not look contrived.

 

[Gaea's listener]

I've taken this texture experimentation dive recently..
Learned a lot.. especially conversing with others.

It's alot of learning your "passes" with texture.. there can be MANY layers WITHIN your texture if you just take the time to KNOW "that" texture... and remaining consistent THROUGHOUT the piece with those same passes (utilizing different materials, of course) to create those same distinct layers...
(This is something Penumbra taught me through conversation, inquiry and studying his work )

Now my textured methodology ends up leaning towards this "Hybridization" work, that I have been doing more and more of, that is a direct marriage of the aforementioned skills brought on by my Penumbra-induced texture dive, and also my Structure/Penjing/Penzai Work.

The weird mutant child looks like this piece... It's not done.. I still have dry work left.. but if you notice, I tried to represent TWO distinct Formations.. one Igneous.. One Sedimentary.. there are a few Volcanic-protrusion esque stones to fill one end for contrast.. but mainly those two rocks.. It was important to keep those passes/patterns/ideas consistent THROUGHout those "sections".

(First pic is dark.. but it's the "front".. so best conveys what I was speaking of)
View attachment 418680View attachment 418681View attachment 418682

These are SOME of the natural items I used In this/these texture/s.

View attachment 418683

what an experience, the pot looks organic with rock like texture. From the top the design seems suiting for a mini forest, that would be so fun to grow. I'm glad to see you're playing with clay and enjoying yourself

 

[rockm]

I agree, it is a hard lesson to learn because we want to create something unique. Traditional, dull glazed pots seem not as appealing to make

Well, here's the thing. Good bonsai pots are not dull. Quite the contrary. The best bonsai potters have learned how to thread the needle of artistic expression and functionality. It's not easy to do, it's a challenge.

Look at what past excellent potters have done and those that are working now. Do a search on Don Gould, Bryan Albright, Horst Heinzelreiter, Ron Lang, Sara Rayner, Nick Lenz to name a few. Their work is NOT dull, but the pots they make, or have made, are VERY useable with actual trees.