Subtropical verses tropical care...

[Cadillactaste]

Curious how ones treat each when it comes to wintering?

I see where many treat them with subtropical being a bit more on the cooler side of temps come wintering...others treat them the same way.

How do you treat your tropicals different than your subtropical bonsai,or are the treated the same...and how long have you experience with both?

I don't think there is a right answer or a wrong answer if what ever one is doing works for them.

My mind's eye...if they are under a different classification then something must set them apart to a degree. But what exactly?

 

[BrianBay9]

I guess that depends on what you mean by subtropical.

I have four categories of trees, mostly because I have four winter storage possibilities. First are the trees hardy in my zone (5a/4b) - store outside with protection. Second are those that need winter, but won't make it in the cold north - store in unheated, attached garage and monitor temps. Then there are trees that don't like regular freezing temps much, but aren't true tropical - inside in cool window. True tropical - grow tent with lights and humidity, usually at about 80 F and 60 - 75% relative humidity.

Categories two and three are always iffy for me.....if I lose any over winter, it's those.

Brian

 

[GrimLore]

I have both in the same room at 72-73F at 4 feet off the ground. Humidity is a always between 56 and 60 percent. The tropicals get higher shelves and stay warmer. Some however are considered Office varieties so they are near the window subject to a bit cooler night then the others. Along that area I have one light setup for a handful of Succulents and Cacti as they do ok cooler as well. Things like Serissa go on the floor under the Tropicals and on a shelf under the Tropical shelves. I am pretty certain they stay slightly cooler being lower in the room at about 65-67F. A ceiling fan running in reverse keeps air and moisture circulating. I use the lower Lumen lights as you do and where needed they are pretty close to the plants for a total of 16 hours daily. The room, top to bottom has different zones the way I see it and they are not that hard to control. This is possible with a dedicated room. A bonus is it is a good space for the Tortoise table and dog grooming. I also must note that any sub tropical in there is either a southern type shrub or houseplant not really trees.

Grimmy

 

[GrimLore]

My mind's eye...if they are under a different classification then something must set them apart to a degree. But what exactly?

I think the correct answer in my experience is that once either is acclimated and healthy they can share a similar space as mine do.

Grimmy

 

[Cadillactaste]

Specific trees are in classifications. I heat with wood for the most part come winter because of location and our propane company refuses to deliver if snow on the ground. So I have a dry heat...never an issue with my bougainvillea for the most part...

Now Serissa are subtropical. Many have success with treating as a tropical. But with my own drier air...I'm going to treat it to the cooler side spectrum of temps since it's easier to keep humidity up doing so.

So...I was curious who all else offers cooler temps over warmer temps for such subtropical trees. And learning if they found any tips they might offer.

 

[Anthony]

Darlene,

tropicals cannot survive temperatures of under 55 deg.F.

Bougies are sub-tropicals and later on I will show you something to make you laugh. Khaimraj collected a Bougie.
Images in a few days.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Cadillactaste]

Darlene,

tropicals cannot survive temperatures of under 55 deg.F.

Bougies are sub-tropicals and later on I will show you something to make you laugh. Khaimraj collected a Bougie.
Images in a few days.
Good Day
Anthony

Well...that explains a lot! They ones with well established roots survived my winter hiccup of hitting 42F for a brief time. Hm-mann so maybe the Serissa could winter okay with them. I thought they were tropicals.

 

[Anthony]

Darlene,

check and see if Serissa flora p, comes from Japan ? [ mellow mullet ]
The one we use Serissa s. comes from China, zone 7 [ probably zone 8 in a pot ]
IBCer Carl Rosner grew his serissas outdoors in New Jersey [ do a google, he is friendly, chat with him. ]

Much of the confusion can be cleared by just remembering ------------ 55 deg.F
Good Day
Anthony

* Special note - Tropicals stop growing down here when daylight shortens and temperatures around Christmas to end of February, reach 70 to 66 deg.F for 10 hrs or so.
We hit our first 68 deg.F for an hour two days ago, in the early morning ------- it begins.

They also stop growing with the Dry Season - no rain and Wet Season - too much rain.

They do not grow all year round.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Darlene,

check and see if Serissa flora p, comes from Japan ? [ mellow mullet ]
The one we use Serissa s. comes from China, zone 7 [ probably zone 8 in a pot ]
IBCer Carl Rosner grew his serissas outdoors in New Jersey [ do a google, he is friendly, chat with him. ]

Much of the confusion can be cleared by just remembering ------------ 55 deg.F
Good Day
Anthony

* Special note - Tropicals stop growing down here when daylight shortens and temperatures around Christmas to end of February, reach 70 to 66 deg.F for 10 hrs or so.
We hit our first 68 deg.F for an hour two days ago, in the early morning ------- it begins.

They also stop growing with the Dry Season - no rain and Wet Season - too much rain.

They do not grow all year round.

Thanks Anthony I'll look him up. I've been trying to sway between Mellow Mullet/John and Grimmy. But see many say they need a cool period. It's all so confusing. Trying to make one little tree happy.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

The categories, tropical, sub-tropical, and hardy are simply too vague to use if you really want to do well with your trees. You need to do research on each species you grow. Some tropicals are heat lovers (thermophiles) for example Cacao - chocolate, temperatures below 45 F can kill the tree outright. It goes dormant if it cools below 68 F or somewhere around that point. Others are more tolerant of cool, will stop growing below 55, but are not damaged by short term exposure to cooler temperatures as long as they are above freezing. It is species dependent. So how to get to a useful answer to your question?

Like BrianBay9 said, look at the places you have available to winter your trees, and then sort your trees by what they will be exposed to.

Serissa is a species I have yet to figure out, I have yet to keep one alive for more than 3 years. I have one entering its second winter with me, I am going to keep it with the orchids, as a tropical this winter. I think Anthony touched on the key, Serrisa come from a pretty wide geographic area, and there are likely geographic differences in their ability to tolerate cold. Some cultivars may be more cold tolerant than others because of their origins. Only way to know is to test them. Start with several inexpensive young plants of each cultivar, and put some in each of your wintering areas, see which survive.

Similarly, I know Cornus florida, White Flowering Dogwood, if the seed source is from Florida or southern Georgia, it will not survive a Chicago winter, if the seed source is from New York State, or Pennsylvania, it will survive Chicago winters just fine. Geographic ecotypes, genetically different populations, though still similar enough they do not get recognition as sub-species or separate species.

One thing to consider, I don't know where the line on the map is exactly, but I believe in zone 7b and warmer, it is rare the ground freezes to any great depth. Many zone 8 trees will tolerate the trunk and branches receiving a freeze, but will expire if the roots freeze. So even if the "books" say it is hardy to 15 F, that may be true for the trunk and branches, but it might not be true if the roots were to freeze. So in general, your sub-tropicals, 7b and warmer, should be brought inside before it gets cold enough to freeze the soil in the pots, and situated where the pots won't freeze.

 

[Anthony]

Darlene,

okay here is the Scam, those trees imported from China,

Serissa s
Podocarpus,
Murraya p
Ulmus [ southern Chinese elm ]
Sageretia t
Ligustrum

Are NOT Tropical.

With exception of the Ligustrum, all seem to work more offof Shorter Days. The Ligustrum follows the path of the Acer, grows well, but dies eventually, needs cold induced rest.
So if you have the evening temperature after Christmas [ at 5 p.m ] of 78 deg.F and then descend to 70 deg,F until 8 a.m and the daytime temperature stays at below 85 deg,F, with humidity at about 70%, the trees rest for roughly 6 to 8 weeks.
[ we have a min/max thermometer in K's garden and one for humidity with daily observations written down ]

What we figure is that they are not allowed to rest or are too chilled and both lead to early death [ say within 4 years.]
So you buy, and you kill, and buy and kill and the Chinese keep exporting.

Serissa s on our side needs freely draining soil and a bonsai pot with a porous bottom. You can get glazed pots, with no glaze on the bottom.
Lost a 5 year old attempt this year, because of too much water, A great pity.

Check out the China hardiness map on google - zone 10 as a small area on the shoreline, zone 9 to zone 7 and a heat in summer similar the US.
Cuttings are good for tests.

The work of Jack Wikle will help [ google search ] he has trees alive indoors for over 15 years, very simple set-up
Amazon for 2nd hand books - Indoor Bonsai
Good Luck
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Cadillactaste]

@Anthony ...who is the author? There are a few under that title.

I honestly had no intentions of having a Serissa. Looked into one when I first got into bonsai. Was told by a few to pass on it. Now...I happen to have a late bonsai guy's trees. One happens to be a Serissa. It has seemed rather hardy up to this point. My sunroom fluxuates mid 60's to low 70's come winter. Thinking instead of the cooler basement John Deere garage which is much cooler. With no clear clue as to temps come winter. I have an alarm thermometer for that area as well. But it might be safer in the sunroom. If I can getaway from three locations might be great...though in my mind I think...Rosemary. Which do need cooler temps could maybe grown down there. But...honestly I am looking more for zone friendly hardy trees.

 

[Cadillactaste]

TEMPERATURES. I am often asked what temperature I maintain in the basement where I grow my indoor bonsai. Actually, this temperature changes slowly in response to outdoor temperatures. In periods of extended warm weather, it has risen as high as 84°F. Extended cold results in a chilly basement with temperatures in the 64°F to 66°F range. I have not been particularly conscious of growing problems at either temperature extreme. However, repotting warm climate plants during the warm season does seem to work better than repotting during cold months.

http://www.fukubonsai.com/2b2a2a.html

Thinking my sunroom would be more ideal for those temps...when cold winter hits Ohio.

 

[GrimLore]

I think Anthony touched on the key, Serrisa come from a pretty wide geographic area, and there are likely geographic differences in their ability to tolerate cold. Some cultivars may be more cold tolerant than others because of their origins. Only way to know is to test them.

Very valid point - know where your plants come from and adjust accordingly. For example if I purchase a cold hardy plant from a grower in Florida it spends its first Winter in a shed anyways. After a full season of acclimation it can then be wintered outdoors.

Much of the confusion can be cleared by just remembering ------------ 55 deg.F

* Special note - Tropicals stop growing down here when daylight shortens and temperatures around Christmas to end of February, reach 70 to 66 deg.F for 10 hrs or so.
We hit our first 68 deg.F for an hour two days ago, in the early morning ------- it begins.

They also stop growing with the Dry Season - no rain and Wet Season - too much rain.

They do not grow all year round.

A few degree difference across the board should be of no ill effect. Less light and water at the same temperature will slow the plant in question enough for a 6 - 8 week period during what would normally be cooler... As Anthony stated they are not growing...

My sunroom fluxuates mid 60's to low 70's come winter.

Put it there and don't love it to much! Just be certain whatever is out of sight has water needs met

Grimmy

 

[Cadillactaste]

@GrimLore the tree came from Bonsaiboy.com...they found the receipt when cleaning our her late brother in law's apartment. Seller from New York...his care is to put it in a window.

This sub-tropical evergreen imported from Japan, blooms profusely with beautiful pink or double pink rose-shaped miniature flowers. Small foliage. Very slow grower. Excellent for beginner.

• 
  Features:
• 4 years old, 8" - 9" tall.
• Recommended indoor flowering bonsai tree, grown and trained by Bonsai Boy.
• Suitable humidity/drip tray is recommended. To purchase add $7.95.

PLACEMENT SPRING, SUMMER & FALL
The Pink Serissa will thrive indoors in high light and appreciates being kept outdoors during the spring and summer. When night time temperatures drop below 45 degrees we suggest that you place the tree on a windowsill or on a table in front of one.

PLACEMENT WINTER
Once nightly lows begin approaching the 40 degree mark, it is time to bring your indoor bonsai inside. The ideal indoor location is on a window sill facing south. An east or west exposure is second best. A northern exposure will work, but will necessitate the use of "grow lights" to provide sufficient light to keep your bonsai healthy. Four to six hours of sunlight per day should suffice. If you can provide more, so much the better.

 

[GrimLore]

Seller from New York...his care is to put it in a window.

I am not a fan of that grower but his instruction on Winter care is close to what I do just less aggresive. In one of our conversations I mentioned bringing it in and putting it next to the Bougainvillea and since then I think you have added a rock base and water for humidity in the tray... I see no reason it should not work honest.

Grimmy

 

[Cadillactaste]

I am not a fan of that grower but his instruction on Winter care is close to what I do just less aggresive. In one of our conversations I mentioned bringing it in and putting it next to the Bougainvillea and since then I think you have added a rock base and water for humidity in the tray... I see no reason it should not work honest.

Grimmy

I agree...the humidity will be raised then. No one had gravel...but then remembered the rock shop has pea gravel. Hubby picked me up some today. So I think it will be going out there shortly. I will run it by the hubby...but I have a feeling he will be happier with two areas of trees. And leave the one in the basement go for now. Humidity was a huge factor with heating with wood. But that grow cart and humidity trays converted from trays in it. Will go a long way in upping that humidity.

 

[carp]

Darlene,

tropicals cannot survive temperatures of under 55 deg.F.

I haven't read the rest of the comments in this thread but this is a totally bogus statement and common misconception.

2014/2015Winter season in FL, Nov-Feb, I got down to 34°F and covered my large trees with frost clothe, all of my other trees on my benches were not protected. Didn't lose a single tree.

We don't sustain those lows for more than 3-5hrs typically and then we immediately begin to warm as the sun rises. Last year, the coldest I experienced was 34°F for about 2hrs and it began to rise back into the 40°F's with the sun coming up. I've never had any issues with my trees in the 40°F temps. That includes, Buttonwood, Mangrove, Lantana, Ficus (of all sorts), Osteomeles, Fukien Tea, Wrightia, Hibiscus, Bougies, Pitanga, Acerola, etc.

Today, the temperature is 84°F with 66% humidity.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I haven't read the rest of the comments in this thread but this is a totally bogus statement and common misconception.

2014/2015Winter season in FL, Nov-Feb, I got down to 34°F and covered my large trees with frost clothe, all of my other trees on my benches were not protected. Didn't lose a single tree.

We don't sustain those lows for more than 3-5hrs typically and then we immediately begin to warm as the sun rises. Last year, the coldest I experienced was 34°F for about 2hrs and it began to rise back into the 40°F's with the sun coming up. I've never had any issues with my trees in the 40°F temps. That includes, Buttonwood, Mangrove, Lantana, Ficus (of all sorts), Osteomeles, Fukien Tea, Wrightia, Hibiscus, Bougies, Pitanga, Acerola, etc.

Today, the temperature is 84°F with 66% humidity.

But that wouldn't be the case in NE Ohio...

 

[GrimLore]

I haven't read the rest of the comments in this thread but this is a totally bogus statement and common misconception.

You missed a lot then! One of the key topics discussed was the origin of the plant. For instance in the North East I buy 1 each Rhododendron PMJ which are very cold hardy but one from FL and the other from CT they need to be Wintered up here differently the first full season. If I do not shelter the stock from FL the first season and acclimate it for a year it just dies outside while the other acts as advertised...

In the North East when NIGHTS cool off to the 50 -55F range the daytime is normally in the low 70's. If the plants are brought into a shelter during the day at thme when it is in the 70's inside they suffer the least amount of shock, drop little or no foliage and act and survive normally.

Could they take a lot more cold? Well hell yes but when we get to 30's in the night and far below the days are equally cold - far different then your area which I am familiar with having family and friends there(yes I actually have friends ).

Thank you for playing though

Grimmy