Colanders: Deciduous vs Conifer vs Evergreen vs Tropical vs Subtropical ???

[Adair M]

The different reporting intervals. I repot my tropicals, subtropicals, and deciduoua every 1-2 years at which point we cut off the circulating roots. Where as pines, and junipers are repotted every 3-5 years or more.

Aaron

Exactly!

Also, the shape of most colanders is wrong for deciduous. Most deciduous trees look best in thinner, flat pots. Trays, actually. Colanders promote downward growing roots rather than radial roots.

 

[markyscott]

The basal flare is built through strong surface roots. If you eliminate all the downward growing roots it forces the shallow surface roots provide most of the water and nutrients to the tree and the shallow roots to receive most of the sugars from the leaves. This encourages cell division at the junction between the roots and the stem of the plant. So cut all the downward roots and discourage them from growing when you're developing nebari. Encourage surface roots to extend horizontally.

This tree has strong surface rootage and a good nebari


This one has neither.


Scott

 

[just.wing.it]

Maybe i'm missing something Adair. Why would deciduous trees not benefit from a colander? When I plant them in a pot, they create long circular roots with the finer ones mostly at the ends. When I plant them in a colander, they form finer roots that starts splitting up closer to the trunk. Exactly what we want for bonsai. As I see it, all trees except those that have natural fine fibrious roots, would benefit from a colander.....deciduous and evergreens alike.
What am I missing?

Stan says his azaleas do well, and benefit from colander growing...so even the fibrous roots exception is not absolute, I suppose.

 

[Anthony]

Solutions -

[1] Tile under seedling with roots tied through holes in with twine [ organic, does not strangle roots ]
Place in colander, buy tile that fits into colander. Bury roots 1/2 inch under soil.
Allow to settle.
When settled in [ air pruning taking place ] place in ground -------- grow.

[2] For root treatment ------check monthly or so - if one or two of the roots are expanding too fast - simple - brush
off the soil and go to the edge of the tile and cut the root just as it goes under the tile.

One can also split roots to make them slimmer.
_____________________________________
*** Molto Importante ***

[3] Remember - the idea behind - air pruning - is to make the feeder roots more efficient, constantly regrowing
new feeders. Eating up all of the soil internally.
________________________________________

[4] Air pots presently makes colander shaped vessels for use like a colander. Seed trays but can be used for Bonsai.

[5] There are presently only two trees we know of that can increase in trunk size in a pot ----------- Ficus p and
the J,B,pine [ see visual in Bonsai Today --------- 3 inch trunk - 5 years ] and that's in an earthenware pot, under 6" deep internally.

Both tree types are soft woods.

Let you know when our tests are done.

[6] Lastly, the air-pot has shown to produce a better root system and smaller leaves on our test plant.
Colander did not do that.
We are now testing possibly the ultimate big leaf and few branches as a tree goes --------- The sea grape.

Sea grape already has fibrous roots. Can the air-pot reduce the leaves and induce more branches------------ time
will tell.

Any more----------------------- problems ?
There are no problems only solutions.
Good Day
Anthony









o

 

[BrianBay9]

No one has specifically discussed tropicals much. To answer that part of your question - I grow four species of Ficus, a raintree, and Schefflera in pond baskets. I prefer them to colanders because they're square rather than round and so take up less space when packed together. They all do great, but the baskets are not as effective at "air root pruning". This is because most of these trees don't mind having their roots stuck out in the air, assuming they're in a moist environment. If I pack them too close together I've even had roots of one tree populate the pot of its neighbor.

 

[just.wing.it]

No one has specifically discussed tropicals much. To answer that part of your question - I grow four species of Ficus, a raintree, and Schefflera in pond baskets. I prefer them to colanders because they're square rather than round and so take up less space when packed together. They all do great, but the baskets are not as effective at "air root pruning". This is because most of these trees don't mind having their roots stuck out in the air, assuming they're in a moist environment. If I pack them too close together I've even had roots of one tree populate the pot of its neighbor.

Wow, one growing into another! crazy!
That's a great point tho...about the tropical trees not getting the air pruning benefits, cuz they don't care...
Thanks!

 

[just.wing.it]

Let you know when our tests are done.

Please do!
Very interested!

 

[sorce]

I have Cuttings from a Ginseng Wal-Mart ficus in a basket.
This winter, I got roots coming out of the sides a lot so I leave water in the tray.
It is growing better than it ever has.
Hydroponic Bottom.

BTW it's in a mix of 8822 and pine fines, and it dries out way too fast.
Way faster than straighty822.

My orange has been in a basket too.
It banged outside this year.

Outside was water everyday, twice over 90degreesF , inside is usually water day, mist day, water, mist.

At only about 4.5 inches across, outside, they dry out fast, so all summer I was watering from all 4 sides.

Looking forward to using baskets in the same shape and size of a bonsai pot.

I don't think there is a better way to get any tree ready for a pot.

Lotta D's getting repotted in spring after 2 years in baskets....
Stay tuned for those root shots.

Maybe the trees I have "cut all the roots off of", haven't been the healthiest......
Cuz I can't get them to live.
Maybe it was too early....

But ask me if I will willingly cut all the roots off of one of my Healthy trees!
Hell No!

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Stan says his azaleas do well, and benefit from colander growing...so even the fibrous roots exception is not absolute, I suppose.

Maybe his "do well" in colanders. Do they "do better" than traditional pots?

Virtually all the azaleas grown in Japan are developed in pots that look like our typical terra cotta pots. They're better pot, they're high fired so they hold up better than terra cotta.

Now, the Japanese know all about colanders. It was a Japanese man who first published the colander technique.

So, my point is, if colanders were superior to pots for azalea, the Japanese would develop their azaleas using colanders. But they don't. They use pots.

 

[Anthony]

Perhaps the question that should be asked of Sifu [ Adair ] is how long will it take a small of leaf
azalea to reach a trunk of 3 to 5 inches, if starting out with a pencil thick plant ?

A few of the Bonsai Today articles mentioned collected garden grown shrubs.

And forget the colander or pot ideas.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[just.wing.it]

Perhaps the question that should be asked of Sifu [ Adair ] is how long will it take a small of leaf
azalea to reach a trunk of 3 to 5 inches, if starting out with a pencil thick plant ?

A few of the Bonsai Today articles mentioned collected garden grown shrubs.

And forget the colander or pot ideas.
Good Day
Anthony

Yeah!....

 

[Vance Wood]

Let's figure this out...

What does colander growing do?

It prevents rank root growth, and circular roots. It promotes root "back budding", and keeping fine feeder roots close to the trunk. It does this on "autopilot". That is, you can plant the tree in the colander and leave it for a couple years, which is good for trees that don't like to be repotted very often.

Which trees don't like frequent repotting?

Pines and conifers.

(I have no clue about boxwoods or tropicals. Somebody please inform us about them).

Which trees don't mind annual repotting and barerooting?

Most deciduous trees.

Do we need to use collanders on trees that naturally produce fine, fibrous root systems?

No. They do it naturally, so there's no benefit.

Which trees naturally form fine, fibrous root systems?

Junipers, and azaleas. Probably others as well.

Now, applying logic to all the above, it would appear that pretty much the only species where collanders would have any real benefit would be Pines and other similar conifers, but not junipers.

This technique was developed by a fellow who wanted to grow Shohin JBP. Which would need to be able to be put in small pots. Therefore, he wanted fine feeder roots to remain close to the trunk.

Deciduous trees develop the best nebari by annually repotting and barerooting the tree, working the nebari each time. The Ebihara technique is appropriate to build a spreading flat nebari. To develop a broad deciduous nebari, you do need rapid root growth. Circular roots are just fine because you are going to cut them off within a year. With an air pot, the roots won't grow as much, and development slows.

What works for one works for the other. I don't know what has happened for someone to have this fail with one and not the other. It has to be a grower error not a device issue.

 

[Stan Kengai]

Maybe his "do well" in colanders. Do they "do better" than traditional pots?

Virtually all the azaleas grown in Japan are developed in pots that look like our typical terra cotta pots. They're better pot, they're high fired so they hold up better than terra cotta.

Now, the Japanese know all about colanders. It was a Japanese man who first published the colander technique.

So, my point is, if colanders were superior to pots for azalea, the Japanese would develop their azaleas using colanders. But they don't. They use pots.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my previous posts or maybe you didn't bother to read them. I said "in my experience, [colanders] are great for growing out pines, hinoki and azaleas." That means I find them to be a better alternative to growing these plant out in the ground, or a nursery can, or a training pot. For growing an azalea from cutting or nursery material stage until it's ready for refinement, my experience has been that colanders are superior to nursery cans and training pots and offer more control than growing in the ground.

 

[Adair M]

Yes, I would expect colanders to only be used in the "growing out" phase.

Can you elaborate on how colanders are superior to pots (or cans) for azalea? And what your growing medium is, please?

 

[Solange]

can I just add that "tropicals" are as, if not more, diverse in types of root formation and behavior as temperate or subarctic trees. so, while it is beneficial to know that ficus react that way, many tropicals won't. Premna micro for example will air prune.

 

[A Random User]

Don't we go down this path with colanders like every week?

I would suggest people not use them until they actually find a reason to use them.

I don't say this to be rude... but it really seems a lot of people don't properly understand the differing types of growth needed for the varying stages of development of a piece of material.

So... rather than laundering off ramdom lists of whether people use them or not... perhaps what is needed more is a comprehensive duscussion of the varying stages of development one goes through when building a tree from the ground up... and when and where their might be uses that a colander could provide... and when it might be counterproductive to use them?

Especially seeing that if one were to go down the list of comments posted thus far... most seem to be using them to obtain something that is not what they need to be working towards at that particular stage of development with the material they have...

It is overly complicating a very simple process. And only causing people to spend more time.

 

[just.wing.it]

Especially seeing that if one were to go down the list of comments posted thus far... most seem to be using them to obtain something that is not what they need to be working towards at that particular stage of development with the material they have...

Well I don't think we were speaking of a specific piece of material, at a specific stage... it was a more general question...
But you're right, it matters, what stage of development and what you're trying to achieve... I guess I would be trying to achieve a healthy, fine root ball of feeders in good soil mix.

 

[MichaelS]

Anthony, post: 408025, member: 14228"]

Perhaps the question that should be asked of Sifu [ Adair ] is how long will it take a small of leaf
azalea to reach a trunk of 3 to 5 inches, if starting out with a pencil thick plant ?

In the ground in a raised bed of kanuma with automatic sprinklers and almost no pruning, 10 to 15 years.

 

[just.wing.it]

Anthony, post: 408025, member: 14228"]


In the ground in a raised bed of kanuma with automatic sprinklers and almost no pruning, 10 to 15 years.

Very nice!

 

[A Random User]

Well I don't think we were speaking of a specific piece of material, at a specific stage... it was a more general question...
But you're right, it matters, what stage of development and what you're trying to achieve... I guess I would be trying to achieve a healthy, fine root ball of feeders in good soil mix.

Are you growing a piece of stock out, or refining it?

Reason for me asking is that if you are growing a piece of stock out, like most have mentioned here they are... you need to let roots run free... which then having them be air pruned is counterproductive. Seeing that it will take much more years to accomplish any substantial growth in a colander.

Unless of course you are willing to make this sacrifice, of a piece of material taking much more years to grow out, for the benefit of radial roots, that can be achieved in a shorter amount of time by first growing out stock to a desired thickness, then doing heavy cuts and beginning radial root work at the same time you then begin to do branch refinement work, or unless you are trying to achieve older fissured bark on a conifer... or trying to achieve roots closer in on a conifer. But, then you aren't really ready for this right if you are trying to grow material out?

As far as having a good soil mix... here again this really is relative as well to what stage your stock is at and what it is you are trying to accomplish. Some soil mixes might not be good for certain types of development.