Should I get this pinion?

[Stickroot]

snip<I was thinking in my climate it may dry to quick in pure pumice but I guess in a deep nursery can it wouldn't really matter so that's the way I probably would go thanks for the opinion. Also wouldn't it just be easier in the long run to remove burlap carfully and then pot up?>snip

Point of not removing the burlap is to not disturb the roots in the wrong season. There is no such thing as a "gentle repotting". Though I too would be tempted. Leaving it in the burlap is just an option, not required. When those more experienced than I say don't disturb the roots, they really mean just that. Every time you move the ball & burlap plant, the burlap flexes and shifts, the soil moves, many new root tips get broken off, this can lead to death of the tree if it happens too often. Soft flexible pots made of plastic or fabric have the same problem. Bouncing around a balled & burlap tree too often or too much can seriously stress or perhaps kill the tree. If it is not a good time to repot, I would personally leave the burlap in place. Each time the tree was moved this year new fine roots may have been broken, regrowing roots is stressful for a tree. You really want the tree to have a full set of roots before you do anything else to it like repotting, pruning, wiring, or anything else. The tree needs to get roots and start growing before anything else. I also would not prune any branches this winter, well maybe take off branches already broken, but certainly don't remove more than about a small fraction of the branches.

In my climate (between Chicago & Milwaukee, 2 miles from Lake Michigan) besides spring, we have an excellent second season for repotting, beginning middle August when it starts dropping below 65 F at night. It runs until about Sept 15th or so. Since average first frost is around October 29, the deadline of September 15 give you roughly 6 weeks of frost free weather to produce roots and have them harden off a bit. If you protect your trees in winter (keep them at or above freezing) you can repot even later into the autumn.

I don't know New Mexico weather, but if your climate allows repotting now, then by all means, do the repotting. But if it is not advised, the option I outlined will allow you to put off repotting. It's is just an option. Not something that you must do. Just threw it out as one way to handle it. I would caution you that the tree as it is at the nursery has already had the stress of being collected, then transported to the wholesaler, then the stress of being shipped to the nursery. Each time the tree was picked up and moved, the burlap flexed or shifted & some fine new roots were broken. As it sits at the nursery the pine has only a small percentage of its usual complement of fine feeder roots. I would treat this tree as a stressed tree. (of course, I can't see it, I could be wrong) If you could find out how long it was allowed to re-establish after collection, it might give you an idea whether the tree is likely stressed or not. If you can't find out, it would be safer to assume not enough recovery time was allowed. It's a guess, but a safer guess than assuming the tree is "ready to be worked on".

I have killed many pines over the years, and I try to figure out what I did wrong with each. Some I have had as long as 18 years, then got over enthusiastic, over pruned a tree that was repotted the same year, the tree was weaker than I thought and killed it. Others I killed their first year. Number one cause of my personal failures, is I tried to do too much, too soon without giving the trees enough time to recover. Read Vance Wood's posts about growing Mugo pine, and really take to heart that when it comes to Mugo's after a major activity, like repotting, letting the tree recover for a year or two really means - don't do anything else to it for 12 to 24 months or more. Vance's warning can to a large degree be generalized to most mountain pines. Repotting in the fall, and pruning late winter or spring is not giving the tree time to recover. Personally, I have had much better success with pines in general when I limit myself to only doing one major activity a year with them. Repotting I have had better success if I allow 2 years to pass before heavy pruning, major wiring, or extensive bud and needle work. Pruning and repotting less than 12 months apart often have proved fatal. (once in a while a tree survives and thrives, but my favorites that got the treatment died). Now pinion is not mugo, but if I had to guess, I would say you might have better success by treating the pinion more like a mugo than like a JBP. I could be wrong. But you won't hurt it by going slow.

I have zero experience with growing pinion pine, if one like yours were to me be dropped at my place today, I would go slow with it. I would just set it in a pot, burlap intact, wait until an ideal repotting time. Then when I repot, I would give it 12 to 24 months to settle in and give myself time to get familiar with how it grows. But that is me, with my pile of expensive firewood behind me. If your horticulture skills are good, you can get away with a lot more than I can. I know my hort skills are not top notch. So I advise caution.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm coming off strong, or strident. Not my intent, but I want to pass on my experience and clearly identify why I suggest what I do. Hope this helps.
Again, nice tree, nice find and hope it is with you 2 decades from now.

WOW!
Great book!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

WOW!
Great book!

Sorry, I can type almost as fast as I can talk, and faster than I can think. So even an "quick comment" can fill pages in no time at all.

 

[Stickroot]

Sorry, I can type almost as fast as I can talk, and faster than I can think. So even an "quick comment" can fill pages in no time at all.

You need the longest post trophy!
Was like a Peter Chan hard back.

 

[sorce]

Hope this helps.

I sure missed you Leo!

I love how you are not afraid to share your failures for the better of others!

Great information as usual!

Thanks!

Sorce

 

[barrosinc]

I have killed many pines over the years, and I try to figure out what I did wrong with each. Some I have had as long as 18 years, then got over enthusiastic, over pruned a tree that was repotted the same year, the tree was weaker than I thought and killed it. Others I killed their first year. Number one cause of my personal failures, is I tried to do too much, too soon without giving the trees enough time to recover. Read Vance Wood's posts about growing Mugo pine, and really take to heart that when it comes to Mugo's after a major activity, like repotting, letting the tree recover for a year or two really means - don't do anything else to it for 12 to 24 months or more. Vance's warning can to a large degree be generalized to most mountain pines. Repotting in the fall, and pruning late winter or spring is not giving the tree time to recover. Personally, I have had much better success with pines in general when I limit myself to only doing one major activity a year with them. Repotting I have had better success if I allow 2 years to pass before heavy pruning, major wiring, or extensive bud and needle work. Pruning and repotting less than 12 months apart often have proved fatal. (once in a while a tree survives and thrives, but my favorites that got the treatment died). Now pinion is not mugo, but if I had to guess, I would say you might have better success by treating the pinion more like a mugo than like a JBP. I could be wrong. But you won't hurt it by going slow.

This paragraph is so hard to accept but so true. Go rough on a pine = death, as simple as that.
It is very easy to get over enthusiastic and do more than you should. A good reminder for us getting in the hobby hearing how long time players can still kill trees if they over do it, even though they have had them for over 18 years.

 

[aml1014]

If protected in a cold frame at just above freezing all winter would it be okay to gently take the burlap off and mulch heavily.

 

[Dav4]

If protected in a cold frame at just above freezing all winter would it be okay to gently take the burlap off and mulch heavily.

Sure, but I don't see the need for all the winter protection if you're not doing any significant work on it. I'm assuming these are cold hardy in your region.

 

[LanceMac10]

Admit it....your dying to take that burlap off......don't.

 

[aml1014]

Sure, but I don't see the need for all the winter protection if you're not doing any significant work on it. I'm assuming these are cold hardy in your region.

Their the state tree lol plenty more hardy then we ever get here I guess I'll just wait to repot till spring and I'll take Leo's advice with potting it

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Even though I have been dabbling in bonsai for 40 years, because I can't contain myself, and keep "over-doing it", my collection looks like someone's who has only been at it 5 or 10 years. And just reading this I get the nearly irresistible urge to take the burlap off too. Even though my ration side screams "leave it alone". So leave it alone. Its hard to do.

You haven't mentioned doing the one thing that might make all these questions easier to answer. Have you found any other bonsai growers within 100 miles of you? A local club? You need to talk to someone with experience in your local climate. They could let you know when the windows for repotting work best. Even if they don't grow pinion, what they do for scott's pine, JBP, mugo or other pines might give you a clue on what to do with the pinion. Be sure to ask someone who has been doing it for more than 5 years. Every club has an instant expert or two, avoid them if you can.

Remember, I did mention there is a late summer - early autumn season for repotting. But, you need to talk to a local to know when this window occurs. Right now it is here for me, the last 3 nights we were in the upper 50's F at night. Our summer-autumn repotting season is here. But your area may be too hot for another couple months. I don't know, I've visited Santa Fe, Taos, and the area there, for not more than a week at a time, always summer. I have no feel for your local rhythm of the seasons.

 

[aml1014]

I have a local club meeting next saturday and a woman Connie who's 87 and has been doing it for 45 years right here in abq has several pinion so I'll consult her. Thank you for so the advice, a of now o plan to leave the burlap over winter at least

 

[Potawatomi13]

Would it not have been a wise idea to check if the tree inside the burlap was constricted or even grafted before buying? How can it hurt to check even now?

 

[aml1014]

Would it not have been a wise idea to check if the tree inside the burlap was constricted or even grafted before buying? How can it hurt to check even now?

I know this tree well I've cared for it for about 7 months now and I know from the distributor that they were collected from wild 2 years ago so I know they are not grafted.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I have a local club meeting next saturday and a woman Connie who's 87 and has been doing it for 45 years right here in abq has several pinion so I'll consult her. Thank you for so the advice, a of now o plan to leave the burlap over winter at least

I am very glad you are going to a meeting. It is critical to get the local "Best Practices". Be sure to ask which is better, spring or autumn repotting, climate plays an important role in what they will tell you. If your summers are really brutal, fall repotting might give more recovery time before the brutal heat of summer. But if your winters are harder on the trees than summer, then a spring repotting is better. Listen carefully to the experienced grower's answer to the question and ask why. They should be able to explain what to do.

Glad you are heading to a meeting. Even if you attend club meetings only occasionally, you will find learning the local experience helpful.

 

[aml1014]

I am very glad you are going to a meeting. It is critical to get the local "Best Practices". Be sure to ask which is better, spring or autumn repotting, climate plays an important role in what they will tell you. If your summers are really brutal, fall repotting might give more recovery time before the brutal heat of summer. But if your winters are harder on the trees than summer, then a spring repotting is better. Listen carefully to the experienced grower's answer to the question and ask why. They should be able to explain what to do.

Glad you are heading to a meeting. Even if you attend club meetings only occasionally, you will find learning the local experience helpful.

I was given the go ahead from a couple of the old timers that have been in the club a long time to do a repot, we only get to about 10 °f in the worst winters we have and it'll be protected from wind between a wall and the cold frame I'm currently building. So considering I think I will do a repot but still be extremely careful just because I don't want to lose the tree.

Also I attend all club events in my area just because I like to see others work and bonsai is not so common here in nm.

 

[Vance Wood]

Fwiw, balled and burlap stock require more effort in the transition into good bonsai soil. It's tedious and will take several years at a minimum.

That's probably true considering that most B&B trees are grown in a clay soil in order to maintain some sort of continuity of shape until planted in the ground. Other than this I don't know what to tell you about this tree never having grown one but never lost the desire to do so. I await your chronicles concerning its development and progress.

 

[aml1014]

So temps here are cooling off 80s in the day 50 at night, so I figured it was time to pot up my beast. The burlap had already broken down completely so I had no choice of leaving it on or not but I'm not worried it had a lot of good roots lol but here it is all potted up and ready for the next few years.

 

[Txhorticulture]

So temps here are cooling off 80s in the day 50 at night, so I figured it was time to pot up my beast. The burlap had already broken down completely so I had no choice of leaving it on or not but I'm not worried it had a lot of good roots lol but here it is all potted up and ready for the next few years.

I'm excited for you brother. I love the pinyon pines. I need to repot my big one in spring it's not destined for bonsai. I like it too much as is. It's almost 20 years old, always a container plant finally old enough to cone.

 

[aml1014]

I'm excited for you brother. I love the pinyon pines. I need to repot my big one in spring it's not destined for bonsai. I like it too much as is. It's almost 20 years old, always a container plant finally old enough to cone.

That's cool man any pointers other then not to over water them? And would you mind postng a pic of yours I'd love to see it.

 

[Txhorticulture]

That's cool man any pointers other then not to over water them? And would you mind postng a pic of yours I'd love to see it.

Sure I'll take one tomorrow. Mine is pinus johannis aka Johann's dwarf pinion. I have some tiny pinus edulis seedlings, and a couple pinus maximartinezii (big cone pinion) seedlings.

I know they don't like it wet particularly in winter, but when you have a tree in a container in bonsai like soil, they need water in the summer.