Repotting Maples for Fungus/Health

[MrG]

Nashville resident here…come to the NBS meetings if you can! Looks like root problems to me. Very possibly too wet with what our weather has been doing.

Check water PH as well. Mine rides at about 8-9+ which is enough to lock up growth for a lot of maples and others unless you adjust for it.

Not sure about the root issue. Definitely a fungus issue.

A couple practical things one might do right now.

• Get the tree out of the rain for awhile and let it dry out more,
• Don’t water until this happens (drying)
• Spray with copper top and bottom of leaves (only).
• Chock up one side of the pot to give sharper drainage
• Take a 3/16” drill and driver, then drill a patchwork of holes around the sides at the bottom 3-4” of the nursery pot. This will increase drainage.
• Use a slow release fertilizer like Osmocote Plus, 1/2 recommended strength, and consider giving a couple applications of Miracle Gro (1 per two weeks) to quickly strengthen the tree. Both these will help right away with nutrient issues. (Although the nursery soil ought to help buffer water issues.

Finally, please go and visit the Nashville NBS folks. WhileI’ve spent a good deal of time working around Oak Ridge over the years, it’s best to take the time to be with the folks who really know the tree horticulture in your area.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers
DSD sends

Thanks all! So first off, I am an NBS member and regularly (more recently than not) attend events and meetings. Great group of folks - agreed on all accounts!

So regarding the tree, I am doing much of what's being suggested already and definitely am aware of and being cautious with watering. I have kept it sheltered for weeks during every rain (almost the entire time I've owned it except for maybe one time), and I'm definitely not watering frequently. Trying to dry it out. Keeping it on a slant, and I actually did cut holes in the bottom of the nursery black pot. I'll try the drilling of the sides though becuase that sounds really great too!

Re Nashville's PH - is a PH test kit good enough for this? @MHBonsai what are you doing to rectify it?

Re fert, I'm doing BioGold but no Osmocote or MiracleGro.

Re treatments, I've done Bonide granular but haven't done spray nor copper.

I do think the trees are drying out though. And the Trident is pushing a nice second flush currently with minimal fungus on the new growth. Lastly, confirming I did go ahead and remove the top bonsai soil from the basket.

All best,
MG

 

[MrG]

Alrighty folks,

I removed the top bonsai soil and from what I’m seeing this seemed like the right move.

The bonsai soil was not entirely dry and also saturated near the soil surface, and it didn’t seem like it was in line with the nursery soil.

The nursery soil seems to be telling a more literal story now - it dried out quickly in the afternoon sun.

Honestly, the pot seems light and totally root bound for the size. Perhaps it’s actually underwatered somehow?? Check this out:





The other JM I posted by contrast is very heavy, and does feel like it’s needing to dry out and holding lots of water when watering.

I’d be glad to hear any thoughts on this, and I do understand it’s hard to remotely diagnose accurately.

All best,
MG

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Hmmm…. Perhaps do a chopstick test on the media?

The leaves appear to need more nitrogen. imho biogold isn’t doing the job.

Best
DSD sends

 

[MrG]

Hmmm…. Perhaps do a chopstick test on the media?

The leaves appear to need more nitrogen. imho biogold isn’t doing the job.

Best
DSD sends

Thank you! I added osmocote so we’ll see. I also did a treatment of Probio Marú which I’m thinking can’t hurt at worst, and may be great.

One thing I noticed that I had seen some of before, and I do know this came from the previous owner is the below:


Is this a tell, or just a side effect of the mouse season?

All best,
MG

 

[MrG]

*muggy, not mouse!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Ouch! ….sure looks buggy!

That’s why I mentioned both Osmocote plus and Miracid. The Osmocote will take a couple weeks to kick in the miracid should show results quicker.

Have Pro bio Marú onboard, just got here before a trip to Indonesia so haven’t tested it. Here’s the data on this product:
Maru is a foliar version of Danu and is sprayed onto the leaves or needles of our bonsai where it is very effective in tackling 'bad' bacteria and fungal attack such as Elm Gall, Olive Knot, Mildew and Rusts, it also seems to reduce Needle Cast in Pines. A very useful natural product for providing disease resistance in our bonsai, without using chemicals that will strip all bacteria (good and bad) from the leaves. During the growing season, Maru is best sprayed fortnightly on problematic trees.

So won’t help with the nutrient issue directly.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[bwaynef]

With the first peek at the roots, I'd consider just layering it and getting rid of the poor roots once you have new. You'd have to be the judge of whether its strong enough to airlayer.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

With the first peek at the roots, I'd consider just layering it and getting rid of the poor roots once you have new. You'd have to be the judge of whether its strong enough to airlayer.

Concur, yet imho not strong and robust for this operation yet.

Best
DSD sends

 

[bwaynef]

Concur, yet imho not strong and robust for this operation yet.

Best
DSD sends

Its hard to tell. The color is throwing me off, but there does appear to be extension growth in the apex.

 

[MrG]

Ouch! ….sure looks buggy!

That’s why I mentioned both Osmocote plus and Miracid. The Osmocote will take a couple weeks to kick in the miracid should show results quicker.

Have Pro bio Marú onboard, just got here before a trip to Indonesia so haven’t tested it. Here’s the data on this product:
Maru is a foliar version of Danu and is sprayed onto the leaves or needles of our bonsai where it is very effective in tackling 'bad' bacteria and fungal attack such as Elm Gall, Olive Knot, Mildew and Rusts, it also seems to reduce Needle Cast in Pines. A very useful natural product for providing disease resistance in our bonsai, without using chemicals that will strip all bacteria (good and bad) from the leaves. During the growing season, Maru is best sprayed fortnightly on problematic trees.

So won’t help with the nutrient issue directly.

Cheers
DSD sends

Thanks, DSD! Definitely planning on the miracle gro too. So what you’re recommending is actually the “acid loving” miracle gro called Miracid, yes?

Its hard to tell. The color is throwing me off, but there does appear to be extension growth in the apex.

Definitely hear all this. To be honest this tree is just really frustrating me because it was growing very well and continues to flush and push apical growth, but this whole fungus and/or nutrient issue is just sort of ruining the growing season it clearly wants to have.

I suspect I could layer it and it would be ok, but I like more exposed root trees and I don’t want to entirely loose all of the current nebari. My plan is to cut up from the bottom and prune unsightly roots once I repot, and then over time root graft and reposition to fill in remaining weirdness.

All of my planning for this tree however has been put on hold because I truly want to crack the code. I am not as novicial as I seem with this - I’ve cared for and nursed other trees to health quite a few times before - but this maple is the most challenging situation I’ve come across.

Miracid ordered. What about Daconil on the leaves? I don’t have copper spray yet. @Deep Sea Diver do you think the daconil would kill the Marú? I’d assume so.

Thanks again all.

All best,
Mark

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thanks, DSD! Definitely planning on the miracle gro too. So what you’re recommending is actually the “acid loving” miracle gro called Miracid, yes?

Yes, yet they are both practically the same elementary. Thinking with all that limestone in TN would be a standard bonsai item?

Definitely hear all this. To be honest this tree is just really frustrating me because it was growing very well and continues to flush and push apical growth, but this whole fungus and/or nutrient issue is just sort of ruining the growing season it clearly wants to have.

I suspect I could layer it and it would be ok, but I like more exposed root trees and I don’t want to entirely loose all of the current nebari. My plan is to cut up from the bottom and prune unsightly roots once I repot, and then over time root graft and reposition to fill in remaining weirdness.

Honestly the tree isn’t robust and healthy at this moment in time. So layering response will be slow. Likely end result would be achieved faster with better roots if the tree was not layered until the tree completely responds to treatment and begins to push hard.

Each to their own on root preferences. Upon gaining more experience over time what looked good to me changed.
In our yard the tree would be on the worklist for a ground or air layer.

All I can say is these procedures, done well, will produce not only a thicker 360 nebari, but eventually a thick upper base and greater branching and foliage, leading to more ramification.

All of my planning for this tree however has been put on hold because I truly want to crack the code. I am not as novicial as I seem with this - I’ve cared for and nursed other trees to health quite a few times before - but this maple is the most challenging situation I’ve come across.

….It would help if the soil level was brought up to cover the roots.

Miracid ordered. What about Daconil on the leaves? I don’t have copper spray yet. @Deep Sea Diver do you think the daconil would kill the Marú? I’d assume so.

Daconil is one I’d recommend anymore to anyone.
See the Safety Data Sheet for Daconil read Section 2.
Yes, it will kill any good fungi in the rhizosphere and foliage… Maples like a healthy rhizosphere,
, just like all other trees .

Thanks again all.

All best,
Mark

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[WNC Bonsai]

I know Bjorn used groundwater from a limestone aquifer east of Nashville so what did he do to treat it and lower the pH, someone in the club must have some knowledge or experience. For water in equilibrium with limestone expect a pH near 8.5. If you are on municipal water they should have a water quality report on their website. Also here is a link to a good video on treatment options:

 

[MrG]

Yes, yet they are both practically the same elementary. Thinking with all that limestone in TN would be a standard bonsai item?

Honestly the tree isn’t robust and healthy at this moment in time. So layering response will be slow. Likely end result would be achieved faster with better roots if the tree was not layered until the tree completely responds to treatment and begins to push hard.

Each to their own on root preferences. Upon gaining more experience over time what looked good to me changed.
In our yard the tree would be on the worklist for a ground or air layer.

All I can say is these procedures, done well, will produce not only a thicker 360 nebari, but eventually a thick upper base and greater branching and foliage, leading to more ramification.

Great to know - I’ll consider this once the tree is healthy - thank you!

….It would help if the soil level was brought up to cover the roots.

This is exactly what I initially tried to do by putting bonsai soil on the top of the nursery soil, which I ultimately think was possibly the beginning of this cascade of issues. Do you think I should put nursery soil or something? I am very hesitant to change the conditions in the pot again soon but of course want to get this to a good place.

And great to know about Daconil. I typically avoid this stuff and won’t use, thanks again.

All best,
MG

 

[Paradox]

Daconil is one I’d recommend anymore to anyone.
See the Safety Data Sheet for Daconil read Section 2.
Yes, it will kill any good fungi in the rhizosphere and foliage… Maples like a healthy rhizosphere,
, just like all other trees .


Cheers
DSD sends

Just to be clear about what you typed here (think a word might be missing?). You don't recommend Daconil due to the health hazards? After reading the MSDS, I can understand why. Seems nasty

 

[MrG]

Just to be clear about what you typed here (think a word might be missing?). You don't recommend Daconil due to the health hazards? After reading the MSDS, I can understand why. Seems nasty

Yep this is how I read it - I’m sure just a typo. Definitely great to know.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Just to be clear about what you typed here (think a word might be missing?). You don't recommend Daconil due to the health hazards? After reading the MSDS, I can understand why. Seems nasty

Dang. You are correct

That is what I meant …very nasty. Think about the long term storage hazard and potential repeated exposure in a garage… .

Yet I do need to proof better. No excuses.

Lately it seems 50% of the SDS (new Int’l name) that I end up posting on BN are known or suspected carcinogens and the rest are known dermal or respiratory hazards.

Thanks to the folks in the EU the demand for safe biological agents is so great the industry is starting to produce some safer, biologically oriented, products… and plant horticulture is rapidly advancing. but the chemical companies are fighting tooth and nail against this to preserve their chemical profits at a lower cost than before.

…and thanks to COVID the amount and type of really good PPE available node is incredible

btw there should be no hazard to raising the level of the media if it is substantially the same. Continue using the chopstick method

Best
DSD sends