Pine Seed Collecting

[CapeCodBonsai]

I thought he was talking about trees in the pine barrens

At least you are able to admit that the error was made by you. You have a long way to go but, that’s a start.

Neither you nor I were in New Jersey looking at the trees that Gr8tfuldad was referring to. Unlike you, I did not make absurd guarantees in an attempt to discredit the original poster. After seeing your dismissive reply, I gave supporting reasons why I THOUGHT his area could have JBP. Then, unlike you, I actually provided Gratefuldad with some of the information he was seeking.

I talked about other areas of the Northeast in order to support the idea that it wasn’t “too much of a stretch to believe that JBP have made it to the shores of New Jersey.”

I cited the NYT article to illustrate that Long Island was another example of a Northeast coastal area where Japanese Black Pine had been planted (by the many thousands).

For whatever reason, that one addition shifted your focus from New Jersey to “debating” me about whether or not JBP existed on Long Island.
(Which, by the way, I couldn’t care less whether they still exist there or not . . . that seems to be the hill that you are choosing to die on.)
The only reason I mentioned Long Island from that moment forward was in reply to YOUR statements about Long Island.

Throughout your entire stream of nonsense, you’ve reworded what’s been stated. You do realize that anyone can go back and read what has been previously posted and in the context in which it was posted, right??

You made the ridiculous claim that “ALL” of the “pines growing alongside roadsides, in public lands, parks and beaches around [you]” are Pitch Pines.

I posted the Cornell University Cooperative Extension of Suffolk County’s paper to show that they were planted in your area. It states that the non-native species were “so widely planted that it seems a natural feature of the landscape”. The informational paper goes on to say the trees that were dying were the ones “growing in stressful conditions”.

Even though I never said that they did, you felt the need to say that “The Saratoga Tree Nursery stopped growing them around 34 years ago.
THE SARATOGA NURSERY DOES NOT GROW JBP ANY MORE”.
You went on to say that “They grow Scotch pines, Red Pines Pitch Pines and Eastern White Pines”
So, even though Japanese Black Pine can live as long as 150 years and Long Island agencies have access to Scotch Pine, Red Pine, and Eastern White pine from the Saratoga Nursery, we have to accept your claim that all of the pines growing alongside roadsides, in public lands, parks and beaches in Suffolk County are Pitch Pines?
… based on hazy reasoning like you drive around a lot and you have a relative that does erosion control???
Can you let go of your ego for one moment and try to understand why someone might post additional outside information from authoritative sources? I am going to anticipate your answer as being “no” and assume that you’ll go on and on about how you’re the expert and I’m the devil … blah, blah, blah.

 

[Paradox]

For whatever reason, that one addition shifted your focus from New Jersey to “debating” me about whether or not JBP existed on Long Island.

I shifted my focus to Long Island because in your first post, you stated:

"
According to The New York Times, JBP is very prevalent in your area also! Here is an excerpt from a NYT article:
“Discovered in 1979 by an entomologist working in Columbia, Mo., the pine wood nematode since has devoured pines of several species across the country. On the East Coast, its favorite fare is the Japanese black pine, which was planted all over Cape Cod and Long Island.”

Again that NYT article is from 1988, 34 years ago. I am responding to you stating that JBP is prevalent on Long Island which is the basis of pretty much everything I have said in this thread after my first post.

I am telling you JBP are not prevalent on Long Island. They may have once been planted here in great numbers as early as the 1940s but the vast majority of them have died again according to the sources you posted and that matches with my observations. You would think an average of 30,000 trees planted from 1940s to the 1970s or later would make them pretty common right? However they are not because most of them died due to pine nematodes carried by beetles and a fungus/virus believed to be introduced by the same.

Here is a NYT article printed in 1990 stating that JBP were "dying in record numbers" all around Long Island and that state foresters expected 100s of thousands of them to be dead in a month. Further, they had to cut down 1000s more around Long Island.

https://www.nytimes.com/1990/05/13/nyregion/island-losing-its-abundant-pine-trees.html

Further they recommend other alternatives to using JBP for erosion control in coastal areas and I have seen lots of those other species used in the last 30 years. Beach grass being the most common on beach areas.

Again, I live here on Long Island, I see what grows here on Long Island.
So yes I believe I know better about what is growing in my area than someone 3 states away reading material from a 34 year old article. JBP is not prevalent on Long Island at this point in time.

Long Island Pine Barrens. Pitch pines for miles.
Over 100,000 acres of Pine Barrens dominated by Pitch Pines



With that this is devolving further into a circular debate based on semantics and minutia so I am done discussing this with you.
I hope you can move past it as well and still be cordial in the future.
Or just put me on ignore and never have to read my posts again.

 

[CapeCodBonsai]

I believe I know better about what is growing in my area than someone 3 states away

You may not be aware of this but, Massachusetts and New York share a border and the areas of Cape Cod and Long Island are part of the same eco-region.

The Cape Cod/Long Island ecoregion includes Cape Cod and an inland area from Plymouth to the head of Buzzards Bay, Nantucket, Martha's Vineyard, and the Elizabeth Islands of Massachusetts, Rhode Island's Block Island, and a large part of New York's Long Island.

Every time you have emphasized that Pitch Pine are the dominant species in your area, I think, “does he realize that he’s preaching to the choir?”

JBP is not prevalent on Long Island at this point in time.

Let’s be clear, I never said that JBP were prevalent on Long Island.

I said, “According to The New York Times, JBP is very prevalent in your area also!”

It’s those little “twisting of the facts” that have kept me responding to most of the statements you’ve made. The only reason I’m bringing it up now is because, there is a chance that you don’t even realize that you’re doing it.

Had your response been something helpful like, “Although that may have been the case back in 1988, the pests and disease mentioned in the article have completely decimated the Long Island population over the last 35 years to the point that one would be hard pressed to find any surviving members of the species anywhere in Suffolk County.” I suspect I would have thanked you for the update and moved along.

With that, this is devolving further into a circular debate based on semantics and minutia so I am done discussing this with you.
I hope you can move past it as well and still be cordial in the future.
Or just put me on ignore and never have to read my posts again.

I agree that this discussion has completely devolved.

I prefer that we are cordial with one another moving forward and I will not “put you on ignore” because (after reading a few of your posts on various other subjects) I believe you to be a knowledgeable person on topics related to bonsai. Outside of our contentious discussion, it’s seems like you generally want to help people.

No hard feelings.

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

Would you two stop arguing over it already? Do you want to be right, or happy in life? I really don’t care if he thought I was wrong, I’m just happy I can collect some seeds for free. I’m just happy I can share some with people who might not have any. Perhaps the trees have not humbled your egos enough, but trust me they have for me.
Bonsai has taught me that like in life, it might not go the way you were intending, but you make do with what your given. Maybe instead of trying to prove each other wrong m, go listen to your trees Oh never mind I just saw where you made up and played nice

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

I live in the pine barrens btw, I know what pitch pine looks like. It is a pure hell, dry, sandy and piney

Here is some Pine Barrens Porn to brighten the mood.

 

[CapeCodBonsai]

I live in the pine barrens btw, I know what pitch pine looks like. It is a pure hell, dry, sandy and piney

Here is some Pine Barrens Porn to brighten the mood.

I have to admit that I am just a little infatuated with Pinus rigida. My Pine collection includes Mugo, Scot’s, E. White, Shore, Ponderosa, Japanese Black, J. Red, J. White, Afghan, and Aleppo
. . . yet, I find Pitch Pine to be one of the most intriguing. I have several pre-bonsai rigida in various stages of development. I can’t wait to get every one of these into a bonsai pot. I will be transitioning a ground-grown Pinus rigida into pot culture late Winter/early Spring of this next year. I’ve never longed for February to get here so quickly!

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

Pinus rigida. My Pine collection includes Mugo, Scot’s, E. Whit

Oh I get it. I think perhaps at times it is the sheer abundance of them that make it a love hate relationship for me. The bark is almost like a plated armor. I appreciate their resilience to grow in such a harsh environment, where little else survives. I drive through a section that burned to the ground 15 years ago and now it has completely comeback all on its own. True adaptation.

Have you been able to collect anything of age? Given the sandy conditions, I fear I am limited to hound yomadori.

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

Seeds that came out of the early cones collected.

 

[CapeCodBonsai]

Seeds that came out of the early cones collected.

You’ll have seedlings before you know it!

I’ve propagated JBP from seed at least three times now. If not the most, it’s right up there with being in the top three of most successfully seed propagated species I’ve attempted.

I have collected seed from local trees in my area and had great success but, I tend to purchase seed online. One of my go-to seed suppliers is located in your neighboring State of New York . . . Sheffield’s Seeds. Another of my primary suppliers I pass on my way home from work; F. W. Schumacher. If you have trouble getting your collected seed to germinate, I can wholeheartedly recommend these two sources.

Best of Luck!

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

Thanks for the recommendation. I started a bunch of seed this spring with mixed results. Things that germinated well, Japanese Beauty Berry, JBP and Eastern Red Bud. I have about six different types of trees that just didn’t pop. It’s funny because I had a terrible season for veggie germination too. That later cold spell we had I feel really did them in. I have a bunch of extra plants if you ever want to do a swap.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I'm not a "Botanist", but I had a dear friend who was a PhD botanist and published author. Most of these three pages of back and forth could have been avoided if any of the parties involved had focused in on the key traits that identify different species of pines.

PINES are IDENTIFIED almost ENTIRELY by TRAITS of the SEED CONE. Without detailed examination of the seed cone, one CAN NOT identify which species of pine you are looking at.

Number of needles is diagnostic only in a general way to separate one group of pines from another. Many pines can have different numbers of needles and still be the same species. For example pitch pine can have two or three needles. There are geographic races of Ponderosa and closely related Jeffery pines that have two, three and four needles in bundles, depending on what location you find them at. Most "white pines" have 5 needles, except the lace bark pines which have 3 needles, even though they are more closely related to the 5 needle pines than the other 2 and 3 needle pines. So while it is a trait to tick off the decision list, needle count, and whether the needle twists or is straight is NOT a consistent diagnostic trait.

The seed cone (pine cone) is the MAIN structure used to identify different pines. Differences in cone structure are the only reliable way to separate one pine from another until a complete DNA reference library has been built.

Key traits for a pine cone include, presence or absence of notches, and the pattern of notches in the margin of the scales of the seed cones. Presence or absence of bristles along the scale margins. The presence or absence of a raised umbo or bulge, in the center of the scale of the seed cone, are there any bristles on the umbo? The length of the stem attaching the seed cone to the branch, and whether the cone is held parallel to the branch or away from the branch is also key. In addition whether the seed cones open naturally or remain sealed closed until heat or fire causes them to open is another diagnostic. Only after you have answered these important questions about the seed cone (pine cone) can you make a definitive determination of species.

It is true, that after enough experience you can fairly accurately determine species of pine driving by at 45 mph, but there will be errors. Without cones in your hands to examine closely, there is no way one can be 100% of an ID on a pine.

Unfortunately, because so many species introduced from all over the world, botanical keys that limit themselves to species native to a region are USELESS, because they will not include the introduced and the invasive species.

Here is a "world wide" botanical key. Unfortunately, you need to be casually familiar with botanical terms.

Home

www.worldfloraonline.org

Missouri Botanical Garden has a good on line resource for botanical terms

A Grammatical Dictionary of Botanical Latin

A Grammatical Dictionary of Botanical Latin

www.mobot.org

Here is a North America Flora - its weakness is the invasive species are not listed.

Flora of North America @ efloras.org

Arbor Day has a mediocre to poor "photo" key to tree species, it is not "scientifically valid", but it is pretty okay for backyard use.

Tree Identification & Guides | Arbor Day Foundation

Discover tree identification resources to better understand the trees around you and deepen your connection with nature, whether planting or exploring.

www.arborday.org

Similar is a New England orientated tree guide.

Simple Key for Plant Identification: Go Botany

gobotany.nativeplanttrust.org

Without a pine cone in the hand, close ups of the scales of the seed cones (pine cones) all pine IDs are "best guesses". Granted, some of us can make really good guesses, but we can also be mistaken. And the tens of thousands of exotic species that have been introduced into the USA over the years does suggest that there will be the odd tree that is not what you might expect at any given location.

So when someone asks me to ID a pine, I ask them to get a couple cones to look at, no cones, NO ID.

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

I'm not a "Botanist", but I had a dear friend who was a PhD botanist and published author. Most of these three pages of back and forth could have been avoided if any of the parties involved had focused in on the key traits that identify different species of pines.

PINES are IDENTIFIED almost ENTIRELY by TRAITS of the SEED CONE. Without detailed examination of the seed cone, one CAN NOT identify which species of pine you are looking at.

Number of needles is diagnostic only in a general way to separate one group of pines from another. Many pines can have different numbers of needles and still be the same species. For example pitch pine can have two or three needles. There are geographic races of Ponderosa and closely related Jeffery pines that have two, three and four needles in bundles, depending on what location you find them at. Most "white pines" have 5 needles, except the lace bark pines which have 3 needles, even though they are more closely related to the 5 needle pines than the other 2 and 3 needle pines. So while it is a trait to tick off the decision list, needle count, and whether the needle twists or is straight is NOT a consistent diagnostic trait.

The seed cone (pine cone) is the MAIN structure used to identify different pines. Differences in cone structure are the only reliable way to separate one pine from another until a complete DNA reference library has been built.

Key traits for a pine cone include, presence or absence of notches, and the pattern of notches in the margin of the scales of the seed cones. Presence or absence of bristles along the scale margins. The presence or absence of a raised umbo or bulge, in the center of the scale of the seed cone, are there any bristles on the umbo? The length of the stem attaching the seed cone to the branch, and whether the cone is held parallel to the branch or away from the branch is also key. In addition whether the seed cones open naturally or remain sealed closed until heat or fire causes them to open is another diagnostic. Only after you have answered these important questions about the seed cone (pine cone) can you make a definitive determination of species.

It is true, that after enough experience you can fairly accurately determine species of pine driving by at 45 mph, but there will be errors. Without cones in your hands to examine closely, there is no way one can be 100% of an ID on a pine.

Unfortunately, because so many species introduced from all over the world, botanical keys that limit themselves to species native to a region are USELESS, because they will not include the introduced and the invasive species.

Here is a "world wide" botanical key. Unfortunately, you need to be casually familiar with botanical terms.

Home

www.worldfloraonline.org

Missouri Botanical Garden has a good on line resource for botanical terms

A Grammatical Dictionary of Botanical Latin

A Grammatical Dictionary of Botanical Latin

www.mobot.org

Here is a North America Flora - its weakness is the invasive species are not listed.

Flora of North America @ efloras.org

Arbor Day has a mediocre to poor "photo" key to tree species, it is not "scientifically valid", but it is pretty okay for backyard use.

Tree Identification & Guides | Arbor Day Foundation

Discover tree identification resources to better understand the trees around you and deepen your connection with nature, whether planting or exploring.

www.arborday.org

Similar is a New England orientated tree guide.

Simple Key for Plant Identification: Go Botany

gobotany.nativeplanttrust.org

Without in the hand, close ups of the scales of the seed cones (pine cones) all pine IDs are "best guesses". Granted, some of us can make really good guesses, but we can also be mistaken. And the tens of thousands of exotic species that have been introduced into the USA over the years does suggest that there will be the odd tree that is not what you might expect at any given location.

So when someone asks me to ID a pine, I ask them to get a couple cones to look at, no cones, NO ID.

Enough of the four play sailor, what do the cones look like

Seriously though, thank you for a detailed response. I was unaware that pitch can change their need count Now I’m really confused

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Remember, all of the European pines and many of the Asian pines have been widely planted as ornamentals in North America, not just the Pinus sylvestris.

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

Remember, all of the European pines and many of the Asian pines have been widely planted as ornamentals in North America, not just the Pinus sylvestris.

Now I’m curious because this barrier island is littered with the same pine. There has to be over 100k of them in a 10 mile stretch. This much, the cones started dropping their seed once I separated and dried them. No fire needed

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Enough of the four play sailor, what do the cones look like

Seriously though, thank you for a detailed response. I was unaware that pitch can change their need count Now I’m really confused

I was looking, I don't have any thunbergii cone photos of my own, I'd have to steal them from the internets, and then I'd have to rely on whether the idiot posting the photos had correctly identified their tree. Those "flora" links I posted above are the scientific definitions of the species. When a key lists a trait as "diagnostic" they mean it is part of the scientific definition of what identifies that species.

So while it does not seem "helpful" my not posting pictures, I have given you links to the actual descriptions of what constitutes a Pinus thunbergii or a Pinus rigida.

Somewhere in my "vague but true" recollections there was an Excel spreadsheet table that could be used where you could just run down a list of traits and voila at the end you had your species of pine. It was all yes/no questions. But I can not find it after about an hour of looking.

another identification site, be warned it is a "garden site" rather than a scientifically accurate site. For most purposes, good enough but there can be errors.

The Best Pine, Fir, and Spruce Identification Guide

Identifying evergreen trees can be a headache, but you can learn characteristic elements that make identifying them a walk in the park. Read more now.

gardenerspath.com

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Pitch pines, and some races of Ponderosa pines, and a number of other pines will have varying numbers of needles. Often on the SAME TREE. Sometimes the variation is geographic race related. There is a specifically 2 needled race of pitch pine(Pinus rigida) there is also the more typical 3 needle race of pitch pine, and there are individual trees that will have bundles of either 2 or 3 at various locations through out the tree. Similarly some pines commonly have twisted needles. But in a population of pines with twisted needles, there will be occasional specimens that have straight needles. These will in all other aspects appear to be normal for the type. This is why needles alone are not used to identify a pine. The cones of pines seem to have the most "conservative" traits, meaning the traits of the cones vary least between individuals in a population compared to other traits.

There is always some variation, or there would be no evolution, and without evolution, there would be no life. - someone famous said that, I forget who.

 

[Shibui]

So as the season goes on I want to start narrowing down the trees and their characteristics I’m seeking. Will conifer seeds be close to the parent or is it gamble like conifers? Will height, girth and bark be close to the parent tree from its seed? Do they cross pollinate with other pines or do they self pollinate? Thanks for the guidance.

Most wild populations have stabilized over millions of years so trees from seed are generally quite stable. Think something like wild wolves - the vast majority will look similar.
When humans get involved we start selecting the very occasional different looking individuals, protecting them so they reach maturity and then breeding those different individuals. The new genes that made that one different are not as stable as the original landrace which leads to more differences in subsequent generations. Continued selection can give a wide range of types - all the domestic dogs originally came from wolf. All the different cultivars of Japanese maples came from just a couple of slightly different wild sub-species.
Allowing those new types to breed with each other further recombines genes and makes even more variability.

Fortunately there are few different cultivars of pine species. Most plantings, especially older ones will be from original wild types that will breed relatively true to type.

Pines do, however, hybridize. In nature, different species are separated by geography (in different areas) or have evolved to flower at different time of year so they don't get the opportunity to cross pollinate.
When we start planting trees in new areas or in new countries hybridization starts to become more common as flowering time of related plants can now overlap.
I'm pretty sure that JBP can cross with JWP. We had a batch of seed here many years ago that produced trees with a range of characteristics of the 2. It is suspected that seed was collected in a city where both JBP and JWP had been planted as ornamentals in parks and gardens.

I'd be more than comfortable with collecting seed from wild or feral trees. At worst some may look a little different (and may even be better for gardens or bonsai) but most will be so close to the parent it won't matter.

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

Most wild populations have stabilized over millions of years so trees from seed are generally quite stable. Think something like wild wolves - the vast majority will look similar.
When humans get involved we start selecting the very occasional different looking individuals, protecting them so they reach maturity and then breeding those different individuals. The new genes that made that one different are not as stable as the original landrace which leads to more differences in subsequent generations. Continued selection can give a wide range of types - all the domestic dogs originally came from wolf. All the different cultivars of Japanese maples came from just a couple of slightly different wild sub-species.
Allowing those new types to breed with each other further recombines genes and makes even more variability.

Fortunately there are few different cultivars of pine species. Most plantings, especially older ones will be from original wild types that will breed relatively true to type.

Pines do, however, hybridize. In nature, different species are separated by geography (in different areas) or have evolved to flower at different time of year so they don't get the opportunity to cross pollinate.
When we start planting trees in new areas or in new countries hybridization starts to become more common as flowering time of related plants can now overlap.
I'm pretty sure that JBP can cross with JWP. We had a batch of seed here many years ago that produced trees with a range of characteristics of the 2. It is suspected that seed was collected in a city where both JBP and JWP had been planted as ornamentals in parks and gardens.

I'd be more than comfortable with collecting seed from wild or feral trees. At worst some may look a little different (and may even be better for gardens or bonsai) but most will be so close to the parent it won't matter.

Great explanation thank you. Saw this one nestled in a Hinoki on my way to check out the waves. Definitely caught my eye!

 

[JeffS73]

So as the season goes on I want to start narrowing down the trees and their characteristics I’m seeking. Will conifer seeds be close to the parent or is it gamble like conifers? Will height, girth and bark be close to the parent tree from its seed? Do they cross pollinate with other pines or do they self pollinate? Thanks for the guidance.

In the original Bonsai Today article on growing JBP, Kusida Matsuo says "carefully select the parents...choose mature trees with desirable traits like thick trunks, low compact branching", I would add look of needles and bark. He further states "it is important to look at a potential parents shoots, if the bases are bare, look elsewhere". He also says the best pine cones grow on solo trees, and on the South of the tree which makes sense, they'll be ripest.

I would add, from my experience of bought seeds, there is tremendous variability between seedlings, at least within JBP and Scots which are the two I've grown most of. Lacebark all look the same at 2 years old. Selecting a parent with good bark at least puts you in with a chance of the same genes, you will be waiting some time to discover the outcome.

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

In the original Bonsai Today article on growing JBP, Kusida Matsuo says "carefully select the parents...choose mature trees with desirable traits like thick trunks, low compact branching", I would add look of needles and bark. He further states "it is important to look at a potential parents shoots, if the bases are bare, look elsewhere". He also says the best pine cones grow on solo trees, and on the South of the tree which makes sense, they'll be ripest.

I would add, from my experience of bought seeds, there is tremendous variability between seedlings, at least within JBP and Scots which are the two I've grown most of. Lacebark all look the same at 2 years old. Selecting a parent with good bark at least puts you in with a chance of the same genes, you will be waiting some time to discover the outcome.

Thanks for your reply and insight. Time is all I got and that isn’t even guaranteed.