Pine Seed Collecting

[Paradox]

https://www.littleslake.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Trees-and-Shrubs.pdf

View attachment 453555

I know what the Saratoga Nursery does and what they grow trees for.
JBP have not been planted on Long Island for about 34 years.
The Saratoga Tree Nursery stopped growing them around 34 years ago.
THE SARATOGA NURSERY DOES NOT GROW JBP ANY MORE.
They grow Scotch pines, Red Pines Pitch Pines and Eastern White Pines



My family member does erosion control plans for a living.
THEY DO NOT USE JBP FOR EROSION CONTROL ON LONG ISLAND, PEROID and havent for at least 30 years.
Again the fact sheet from 2018 AND the NYT article from 1988 YOU quoted both stated MOST OF THEM ON LONG ISLAND ARE DEAD

Lastly, I work for the goddammed agency you are quoting and deliberately leaving out details to try and prove your incorrect information.
AGAIN JAPANESE BLACK PINE ARE NOT USED FOR EROSION CONTROL ON LONG ISLAND AND THOSE THAT WERE PLANTED 35+ YEARS AGO ARE DEAD.

THERE ARE NO JBP STANDS ON LONG ISLAND

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

I know what the Saratoga Nursery does and what they grow trees for.
JBP have not been planted on Long Island for about 34 years.
The Saratoga Tree Nursery stopped growing them around 34 years ago.
THE SARATOGA NURSERY DOES NOT GROW JBP ANY MORE.
They grow Scotch pines, Red Pines Pitch Pines and Eastern White Pines

View attachment 453572

My family member does erosion control plans for a living.
THEY DO NOT USE JBP FOR EROSION CONTROL ON LONG ISLAND, PEROID and havent for at least 30 years.
Again the fact sheet from 2018 AND the NYT article from 1988 YOU quoted both stated MOST OF THEM ON LONG ISLAND ARE DEAD

Lastly, I work for the goddammed agency you are quoting and deliberately leaving out details to try and prove your incorrect information.
AGAIN JAPANESE BLACK PINE ARE NOT USED FOR EROSION CONTROL ON LONG ISLAND AND THOSE THAT WERE PLANTED 35+ YEARS AGO ARE DEAD.

THERE ARE NO JBP STANDS ON LONG ISLAND

I was talking about NJ btw

 

[Paradox]

I was talking about NJ btw

Yes I understand that.
I am not speaking for what is going on in NJ currently. The information posted is about Long Island NY. I still suspect that most of the pines in your pine barrens are pitch pines though because they are native and are literally everywhere.

Don't know if NJ has the pine nematode that has killed pines in NY, but apparently it's been a real problem here for the last 50 years. Though it doesn't seem to effect pitch pines from what I can tell. Southern pine beetles are another story though.

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

Yes I understand that.
I can't speak and am not speaking for what is going on in NJ currently. The information posted is about NY. I still suspect that most of the pines in your pine barrens are pitch pines though because they are native.

Don't know if NJ has the pine nematode that has killed pines in NY, but apparently it's been a real problem here for the last 50 years. Though it doesn't seem to effect pitch pines from what I can tell

I know, still worth a chuckle. The trees I am referencing are not in the pine barrens. Now it is the sea of mansions The pine Barrens now doesn’t start until your about 5-7 miles in land. It is all houses until you get to the protected pine lands. Ironically, ibsp (on the barrier island) which is protected doesn’t really even have pines, it’s mostly cedars and black cherries. The pines I was referencing I suspect were placed by man. For example, two houses ago we built an ocean front that had an easement on the north side of the house for beach access. They lined the property line with 10 black pines and 10 white pines when landscaping. If you ever come down to bayhead, mantoloking, lavalette or seaside I am sure you would appreciate some of the old specimens here. You really don’t see them elsewhere in the area, especially this old.

 

[Paradox]

Also the knowledge that there is a pine nematode on Long Island that JBP are susceptible to is information that anyone keeping JPB bonsai on Long Island should be aware of

 

[Shibui]

Jonas has a great post and explains everything you need to know . . .

How to grow Japanese black pine from seed - Bonsai Tonight

Everything you need to know to successfully grow Japanese black pine from seed including selecting the seeds, stratification, planting and basic care.

bonsaitonight.com

That Bonsai tonight article pretty much covered when and how to collect pine cones.
My JBP cones ripen and start to open sometime between the end of summer and late fall. Cones change from greenish to brownish and right at the end the scales start to separate in preparation for opening fully. Check pics in the article and you'll see some just starting to open up.
You do need to keep an eye on them as cones open quickly but will then close again in damp weather and look for all the world like they are still entire. Often all the cones on a tree will open on a nice warm, sunny day. The majority of viable seed will fall out the day they open. Usually I see a few cones open early which tells me the others are mature and can be harvested even if the scales have not started to loosen.
In the early days I picked many entire looking cones in winter only to discover, when they dried and opened again, most seeds were already gone because those cones had previously opened in fall but closed again with damp weather.
He mentions that most viable seeds are in the middle bracts and fall out easily. The vast majority that don't fall easily are empty shells so no point trying to open the cones more or pick out recalcitrant seeds. I've also confirmed this down here.

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

That Bonsai tonight article pretty much covered when and how to collect pine cones.
My JBP cones ripen and start to open sometime between the end of summer and late fall. Cones change from greenish to brownish and right at the end the scales start to separate in preparation for opening fully. Check pics in the article and you'll see some just starting to open up.
You do need to keep an eye on them as cones open quickly but will then close again in damp weather and look for all the world like they are still entire. Often all the cones on a tree will open on a nice warm, sunny day. The majority of viable seed will fall out the day they open. Usually I see a few cones open early which tells me the others are mature and can be harvested even if the scales have not started to loosen.
In the early days I picked many entire looking cones in winter only to discover, when they dried and opened again, most seeds were already gone because those cones had previously opened in fall but closed again with damp weather.
He mentions that most viable seeds are in the middle bracts and fall out easily. The vast majority that don't fall easily are empty shells so no point trying to open the cones more or pick out recalcitrant seeds. I've also confirmed this down here.

Valuable information, as always thank Shibui!

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

So I got a chance to walk the roadside headed into lavalette. I took a few pictures and numbered them. I also collected a few seeds to test.
These are two needle pines, however, I am open to learning which types they are from a more informed member?
I am going to department of public works who manages the land one of these mornings. I am interested to learn the history of how these trees ended up here.

 

[Paradox]

Those do look like they could be JPB.
The cones look pretty similar to the ones from Jonas' blog and look like they might be close to collecting.

Some of them are pretty scraggly looking trees. Definitely been there a while.

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

Those do look like they could be JPB.
The cones look pretty similar to the ones from Jonas' blog and look like they might be close to collecting.

Some of them are pretty scraggly looking trees. Definitely been there a while.

They are about 100 yards from the open bay. Between the wind, being roadside on a highway and the migratory crackheads they take a beating. If anyone else can confirm what type of pines these are, it is appreciated.

 

[Paradox]

They are about 100 yards from the open bay. Between the wind, being roadside on a highway and the migratory crackheads they take a beating. If anyone else can confirm what type of pines these are, it is appreciated.

AFAIK The only other thing it could be is Virginia Pine. They are 2 needle pines and do extend up into NJ
Not sure how tolerant they are of coastal areas / salt spray etc though

Pinus virginiana - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Looking at your pictures, the close up of the needles, looks like the needles are twisted which is a characteristic of Virginia pines.
BUT the cones seem to be unarmed {no spikes} from what I can see in the pics
Hopefully someone that knows them better can chime in

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

AFAIK The only other thing it could be is Virginia Pine. They are 2 needle pines and do extend up into NJ
Not sure how tolerant they are of coastal areas / salt spray etc though

Pinus virginiana - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Looking at your pictures, the close up of the needles, looks like the needles are twisted which is a characteristic of Virginia pines.
BUT the cones seem to be unarmed {no spikes} from what I can see in the pics
Hopefully someone that knows them better can chime in

The cones are definitely different. Here is a shot of a young one that sprouted, you can see from all the dropped cones they lack the horn you referenced.

 

[CapeCodBonsai]

Those do look like they could be JPB.
The cones look pretty similar to the ones from Jonas' blog and look like they might be close to collecting.

Gr8tfuldad,

Don‘t believe your lying eyes! Have you already forgotten what Paradox said?
”I guarantee those pines you see everywhere are not Japanese black pine.”

Even after I said, “There may be Japanese Black Pine in [your] area.” and provided documented facts and a first hand experience as to why I believed that your statement might be accurate”, Paradox assured you that I was “… deliberately leaving out details to try and prove [my] incorrect information.”

Thank you for posting those photographs. You made my day! Best of luck propagating those two-needled Pitch Pine.

 

[Paradox]

Gr8tfuldad,

Don‘t believe your lying eyes! Have you already forgotten what Paradox said?
”I guarantee those pines you see everywhere are not Japanese black pine.”

Even after I said, “There may be Japanese Black Pine in [your] area.” and provided documented facts and a first hand experience as to why I believed that your statement might be accurate”, Paradox assured you that I was “… deliberately leaving out details to try and prove [my] incorrect information.”

Thank you for posting those photographs. You made my day! Best of luck propagating those two-needled Pitch Pine.

First of all it was clarified that those were not "everywhere". The vast majority of pines in the NJ pine barrens ARE pitch pines which is what is where I thought he said he was seeing them. It was later clarified that they weren't in the pine barrens. Regardless 5 trees on the side of a highway are not the majority of pines in New Jersey.

My debate with you is over JBP occurring on Long Island and your misrepresentation of the NY sources you quoted and deliberately leaving out information that proves that JBP are not currently common or used as erosion control on Long Island and haven been for 35 years. Those that were planted are mostly if not all dead.

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

Gr8tfuldad,

Don‘t believe your lying eyes! Have you already forgotten what Paradox said?
”I guarantee those pines you see everywhere are not Japanese black pine.”

Even after I said, “There may be Japanese Black Pine in [your] area.” and provided documented facts and a first hand experience as to why I believed that your statement might be accurate”, Paradox assured you that I was “… deliberately leaving out details to try and prove [my] incorrect information.”

Thank you for posting those photographs. You made my day! Best of luck propagating those two-needled Pitch Pine.

I’m just grateful there are some around, in fact I would say thousands! They are beautiful. Sure there are some beat up scrappy ones right on the side of the road, but there are plenty that have found there true potential. I’m here to learn about trees, how to grow them, preserve them, identify them and maybe make a friend or two along the way. Other than that, life already has enough ego that makes it fairly intolerable, I’ll pass.

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

Here are a couple of additional shots for anyone else that is interested.

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

So as the season goes on I want to start narrowing down the trees and their characteristics I’m seeking. Will conifer seeds be close to the parent or is it gamble like conifers? Will height, girth and bark be close to the parent tree from its seed? Do they cross pollinate with other pines or do they self pollinate? Thanks for the guidance.

 

[Paradox]

It's a crapshoot. No guarantee they will be just like the parent.
Yes there is potential for cross pollination but that is also hard to tell. I have not been able to find evidence of it in a search but it might be no one has really studied it with JPB.

There is info on Lobolly and Ponderosa cross pollinating and I've read that scotts can cross pollinate as well but forget with what.

 

[CapeCodBonsai]

My debate with you is over JBP occurring on Long Island and your misrepresentation of the NY sources you quoted and deliberately leaving out information that proves that JBP are not currently common or used as erosion control on Long Island and haven been for 35 years. Those that were planted are mostly if not all dead.

Rather than provide Gr8tfuldad with the information that he originally asked for (which I am certain you possess), you were quick to point out that he was wrong. However, it’s looking like he may be right!

Here‘s what I’ve learned from your debate:

1. You knew the species of trees that Gr8tfuldad was looking at in New Jersey based on the observations made while you were driving around Suffolk County, Long Island, NY.

2. When I post a fact from an outside source to show that your information is incorrect, you will subtly change your inaccurate statement in a follow up and apparently believe no one will notice.

3. If I choose to post a quote from a news article instead of a link to the entire article, it’s not because I am trying to spare an interested individual the pain of having to click through multiple pop-up windows, but because I am, “… deliberately leaving out details to try and prove [my] incorrect information.”

I am learning so much about myself!

4. You are truly a rare individual!

 

[Paradox]

Rather than provide Gr8tfuldad with the information that he originally asked for (which I am certain you possess), you were quick to point out that he was wrong. However, it’s looking like he may be right!

Here‘s what I’ve learned from your debate:

1. You knew the species of trees that Gr8tfuldad was looking at in New Jersey based on the observations made while you were driving around Suffolk County, Long Island, NY.

2. When I post a fact from an outside source to show that your information is incorrect, you will subtly change your inaccurate statement in a follow up and apparently believe no one will notice.

3. If I choose to post a quote from a news article instead of a link to the entire article, it’s not because I am trying to spare an interested individual the pain of having to click through multiple pop-up windows, but because I am, “… deliberately leaving out details to try and prove [my] incorrect information.”

I am learning so much about myself!

4. You are truly a rare individual!

I thought he was talking about trees in the pine barrens which is a reasonable mistake considering there are 1000s of acres of pine barrens in NJ (and NY, the environments are similar). Have you ever seen the pine barrens in NJ? I have which is the basis of my statement that "the majority of pines in the pine barrens are pitch pines", which is still true. There may be JPB growing in NJ but they are still not the dominant pine species in NJ.

You quoted articles specifically about New York, NOT about New Jersey. So I commented about trees in NY and how the articles you quoted state they are mostly dead or dying and how the state tree nursery stopped growing and transporting them to my area 34 years ago.

You quoted from a NYT 1988 article (without giving the date) that the state tree nursery was transporting 30,000 trees a year to Long Island, NY (not New Jersey) which they clearly stopped doing 34 years ago

You posted a 2018 fact sheet that was derived and rewritten from a study done in 1988 in NY not NJ (also quoted in the NYT article). Information in that fact sheet says the majority of JPB planted on Long Island were dead or dying. The information is 34 years old, a bit out of date.

None of the information you provided says anything about New Jersey. It was about Long Island NY. Which is why I commented on my observations living, working and driving around Long Island.

I've lived here for over 30 years, I think I know the area a bit better.