Is it too late in the season to trunk chop a chinese juniper???

[Vance Wood]

Vance! Thank you, and October for your discussion, huge help!

1. Vance do you thinking repotting this august (next week) will help it? Instead of waiting until spring? If it makes no difference, I'd love to do it now, give me something to do.

Years to come back I know, but I picked this guy for a long term project since i've got other lil' trees which will develop sooner.

Never do anything to a bonsai just because you need something to do, a quick prescription for failure.

I thought you had already repotted this tree? In any event I think you could repoot the tree, lets put it this way, I would repot it. Lets look at it from the point of view of those who claim or suggest that Junipers are growth dependent and that if you cut too much of the top, the tree will die.

If that is so why does the tree die? BECAUSE you still have the same root mass trying to get a greatly reduced growing top to support it where there are not enough resources left to do what's asked of it. Reduce the roots, you reduce the demand on a limited resource; a diminished top.

 

[Eric Group]

Eric, please do not speak down to me, I know it's not a race. But thank you for your input. The tree was on clearance so not a huge loss if it fails, which it won't. There is a huge branch with branchlets still on the tree with thick healthy foliage in spots all the way up to the trunk. And we've had cooler weather and will for the next couple weeks. 60's-70's so might as well be early fall. I know my tree will be more than healthy. I keeping it in shade for most of the day and mist spraying the foliage. And I'm definitely not repotting it until spring.

Thnks
-Mike

Nobody is talking down to you, sorry if you feel that way- but like many others who posted here it frustrates me when someone asks a question that shows they NEED the help (like asking about "trunk chopping a juniper") and then they jump right in and do it twenty minutes later without waiting for help... What if someone had come in and said "absolutely not, do not trunk chop that tree right now"? Would you have still done it? Apparently so...?

I am far from perfect myself, but these are the kinds of mistakes I made when I started bonsai about a decade ago, and you would be better served to slow down a bit and get your trees healthy before you start whacking 80% of their foliage off. Believe me I am speaking as someone who killed some trees doing stuff just like this. Your tree may well survive, but I would not say that is guaranteed, especially after seeing the pictures. This was not a real healthy tree prior to the chop I'd say from looking at the foliage. It looks like an old decorative tree that was cut in a spiral pattern years ago then not cared for very well.... I hope it does survive and you get a real beautiful tree from it, but had you simply posted some pics before doing the chop, you would have gotten some of the great advice people here have tried to give you, BEFORE it was too late to take advantage of it. It takes about 10 seconds to chop a big branch or a trunk, but it takes about 20 years to grow one... When considering a drastic move like this that you are unsure of, it is best to wait a day or two ( or even a couple weeks) then do it when you are certain it is the right move.

Again, if you ask for advice, I do not consider it condescending to give it to you... Adair and some of the other experts around here could have probably guided you in a direction that would have enabled you to create something pretty nice from this tree in a relatively short amount of time. (Couple years maybe)... Now, as I said before, I just hope it survives. Good luck!

If you want some good advice, go to you tube and check out some of Ryan Neil's lectures on bonsai! He is great at explaining the basics of what drives the vitality in certain species... And giving simple, step by step instructions that make sense to everyone.

I am glad to learn you didn't spend much not his tree, and are just trying to learn- no better way to learn than practice!

 

[Eric Group]

Never do anything to a bonsai just because you need something to do, a quick prescription for failure.

I thought you had already repotted this tree? In any event I think you could repoot the tree, lets put it this way, I would repot it. Lets look at it from the point of view of those who claim or suggest that Junipers are growth dependent and that if you cut too much of the top, the tree will die.

If that is so why does the tree die? BECAUSE you still have the same root mass trying to get a greatly reduced growing top to support it where there are not enough resources left to do what's asked of it. Reduce the roots, you reduce the demand on a limited resource; a diminished top.

Well yeah, that is true for any tree... Balancing the roots with the growth is important... But... Are you saying that if you remove all the foliage from a juniper it will NOT die? That seems to be what you are saying... If you can completely defoliate a juniper without killing it, I'd love to know how, because that would be the first time I have ever heard of or seen it! At the very least you would be lucky to NOT kill one by doing that...

Not disagreeing with you here Vance, just asking for some clarification. I have seen it taught by many (and seen it demonstrated in my own practice) that it can and will weaken a Juniper dramatically if you remove too much foliage at one time, perhaps someone can do it without killing a tree if they care for it well, but is the risk worth it? Or are you just saying that is complete bunk? I know different species are more resilient than others, but all Junipers grow in a similar way do they not? Nobody is saying the roots are completely inconsequential, but the point being made by the comments about the vitality being focused int he growth tips is that trunk chops and defoliation the likes of which you might see done all the time on a Maple, Elm, or even a healthy pine (de-candling and hard cut backs) don't work the same way on a juniper and can straight up kill the tree, especially if done at the wrong time of year.

 

[Vance Wood]

Well yeah, that is true for any tree... Balancing the roots with the growth is important... But... Are you saying that if you remove all the foliage from a juniper it will NOT die? YYou remove all the foliage from anything you are likely to kill it. That seems to be what you are saying...I don't think so. If you can completely defoliate a juniper without killing it, I'd love to know how, because that would be the first time I have ever heard of or seen it! At the very least you would be lucky to NOT kill one by doing that... I have never said any of this I have no clue how you have come to this conclusion?

Not disagreeing with you here Vance, just asking for some clarification. I have seen it taught by many (and seen it demonstrated in my own practice) that it can and will weaken a Juniper dramatically if you remove too much foliage at one time, perhaps someone can do it without killing a tree if they care for it well, but is the risk worth it? Or are you just saying that is complete bunk? I know different species are more resilient than others, but all Junipers grow in a similar way do they not? Nobody is saying the roots are completely inconsequential, but the point being made by the comments about the vitality being focused int he growth tips is that trunk chops and defoliation the likes of which you might see done all the time on a Maple, Elm, or even a healthy pine (de-candling and hard cut backs) don't work the same way on a juniper and can straight up kill the tree, especially if done at the wrong time of year.

If you remove too much foliage and don't balance that procedure by removing roots too, the tree will weaken. I know this has not been taught for a long time but the truth is the truth. Think about it. If a tree is growth dependent and you diminish the top the drain on the remainder of the top will be affected by too many roots making demands on that system now totally out of balances.

 

[Eric Group]

If you remove too much foliage and don't balance that procedure by removing roots too, the tree will weaken. I know this has not been taught for a long time but the truth is the truth. Think about it. If a tree is growth dependent and you diminish the top the drain on the remainder of the top will be affected by too many roots making demands on that system now totally out of balances.

I see what you are saying now, guess I was misunderstanding a comment you made in your previous post... Thanks for clarifying!

 

[Cypress]

Never do anything to a bonsai just because you need something to do, a quick prescription for failure.

I thought you had already repotted this tree? In any event I think you could repoot the tree, lets put it this way, I would repot it. Lets look at it from the point of view of those who claim or suggest that Junipers are growth dependent and that if you cut too much of the top, the tree will die.

If that is so why does the tree die? BECAUSE you still have the same root mass trying to get a greatly reduced growing top to support it where there are not enough resources left to do what's asked of it. Reduce the roots, you reduce the demand on a limited resource; a diminished top.

Wow, this makes complete sense! And no I have not repotted it, it's still in the nursery pot. I think I will go ahead with a light root prune and repotting based on the information you've provided me.

Should I repot into a legitimate bonsai pot, or a smaller plastic or clay pot? (but it would have to be a wide pot for lateral root growth). And question number #2: can you give any recommendation for soil? should I go ahead and use actual bonsai soil? These guys are pretty pH adaptable from everything I've read.

And I'm not worried at all that a root prune will hurt my tree. Everything I've read on the 'San Jose' cultivar I have indicates that it is extremely drought resistant.

 

[Cypress]

Nobody is talking down to you, sorry if you feel that way- but like many others who posted here it frustrates me when someone asks a question that shows they NEED the help (like asking about "trunk chopping a juniper") and then they jump right in and do it twenty minutes later without waiting for help... What if someone had come in and said "absolutely not, do not trunk chop that tree right now"? Would you have still done it? Apparently so...?

I am far from perfect myself, but these are the kinds of mistakes I made when I started bonsai about a decade ago, and you would be better served to slow down a bit and get your trees healthy before you start whacking 80% of their foliage off. Believe me I am speaking as someone who killed some trees doing stuff just like this. Your tree may well survive, but I would not say that is guaranteed, especially after seeing the pictures. This was not a real healthy tree prior to the chop I'd say from looking at the foliage. It looks like an old decorative tree that was cut in a spiral pattern years ago then not cared for very well.... I hope it does survive and you get a real beautiful tree from it, but had you simply posted some pics before doing the chop, you would have gotten some of the great advice people here have tried to give you, BEFORE it was too late to take advantage of it. It takes about 10 seconds to chop a big branch or a trunk, but it takes about 20 years to grow one... When considering a drastic move like this that you are unsure of, it is best to wait a day or two ( or even a couple weeks) then do it when you are certain it is the right move.

Again, if you ask for advice, I do not consider it condescending to give it to you... Adair and some of the other experts around here could have probably guided you in a direction that would have enabled you to create something pretty nice from this tree in a relatively short amount of time. (Couple years maybe)... Now, as I said before, I just hope it survives. Good luck!

If you want some good advice, go to you tube and check out some of Ryan Neil's lectures on bonsai! He is great at explaining the basics of what drives the vitality in certain species... And giving simple, step by step instructions that make sense to everyone.

I am glad to learn you didn't spend much not his tree, and are just trying to learn- no better way to learn than practice!

Thanks Eric, I really appreciate your reply. I do believe I should slow up a bit. But in those two days of no replies I was doing my own research on the subject, so it wasn't a complete lark. But yes, in the future I will be more patient with these things. Thank you for your advice.

 

[Cypress]

Well yeah, that is true for any tree... Balancing the roots with the growth is important... But... Are you saying that if you remove all the foliage from a juniper it will NOT die? That seems to be what you are saying... If you can completely defoliate a juniper without killing it, I'd love to know how, because that would be the first time I have ever heard of or seen it! .

Just to clarify: there is a large branch with branchlets with plenty of foliage on them. I wasn't trying to actually murder the tree hahahah

 

[Eric Group]

Oh I know man, sorry again if it seems like I was getting down on you there! Nobody TRIES to murder a tree, but lord knows we have all killed a few!

I sure hope this one comes back strong for you! If not, chalk it up to a learning experience and move on to the next one... If it does, please keep us updated with pics!!

Let's get you a nice vigorous super healthy tree to work on next time!

Good luck with this one!

 

[Cypress]

Haha, will definitely post updates.

 

[jkd2572]

It looks like a few of my long posts I put on this thread have disappeared. That's sad.

 

[Cypress]

huhhh.....

 

[jkd2572]

Have no Idea people even responded to them. Regardless welcome and don't take passionate responses personally everybody here is just trying to help and progress our collective further. This hobby is not easy or passive and its very much a learning experience. Please pull off of other people experiences.

 

[Beetleman72]

Nobody is talking down to you, sorry if you feel that way- but like many others who posted here it frustrates me when someone asks a question that shows they NEED the help (like asking about "trunk chopping a juniper") and then they jump right in and do it twenty minutes later without waiting for help... What if someone had come in and said "absolutely not, do not trunk chop that tree right now"? Would you have still done it? Apparently so...?

I am not as nice as some of the people on here who have graciously tried to help you. when anyone says anything that you dont want to hear you get pissy. So next time you have an incling to post a thread asking for advice only to ignore it and be rude to the people who are trying to help you just save everyone's time and do whatever you want to do since they are "your trees and [you] dont care what anybody thinks you should do". These people, who you have time and again shit on, have all been very helpful to me and since I've been a member here I've learned more than I had in the previous 3 years of trial and error, but it seems that is the only way you are willing to learn. just to be clear THIS is what talking down and insulting sounds like. Not to be confused with all the people who have been nice enough to share their experience and knowledge with you which apparently is extremely offensive to you. And yes I realize that I am a dick, but i call it like I see it.

 

[Cypress]

Have no Idea people even responded to them. Regardless welcome and don't take passionate responses personally everybody here is just trying to help and progress our collective further. This hobby is not easy or passive and its very much a learning experience. Please pull off of other people experiences.

JKD, I really appreciated your comment on the other thread. I'm new to this and I've had a really really positive experience with the forums so far. But someone told me to find another hobby. It made me feel very unwelcome here. and I never meant to create this outlandish backlash of bickering. I'm approaching this forum with as much humility as possible from here forward. But at the end of the day I'm the type of person that will stand up for myself and not bow to others feet. Humility is not groveling at the feet of those greater and wiser. It is acknowledging them with respect. And that what I will do.

 

[Cypress]

I am not as nice as some of the people on here who have graciously tried to help you. when anyone says anything that you dont want to hear you get pissy. So next time you have an incling to post a thread asking for advice only to ignore it and be rude to the people who are trying to help you just save everyone's time and do whatever you want to do since they are "your trees and [you] dont care what anybody thinks you should do". These people, who you have time and again shit on, have all been very helpful to me and since I've been a member here I've learned more than I had in the previous 3 years of trial and error, but it seems that is the only way you are willing to learn. just to be clear THIS is what talking down and insulting sounds like. Not to be confused with all the people who have been nice enough to share their experience and knowledge with you which apparently is extremely offensive to you. And yes I realize that I am a dick, but i call it like I see it.

Well we may have something in common. But this started between me and one other member, ryan redwood or something. That's all it had to be, me and him. I didn't insult anybody else at all on the forum, they just began bombarding me with negativity. I have loved the few weeks i've been on this forum but if people like you are going to keep attacking me I'm going to at least have to to a vacation from this mob mentality thing going on here.

 

[jkd2572]

This thread should be stopped. New guy. No one wants to insult you this has taken on its own stupid life. We all want to prevent dumb Mistakes we have all done before. Please start a new thread. Start over and welcome. This is the craziest hobby on earth. We put trees in pots when they should be put in the ground. This is difficult. That's we we love it. Lots of experience here

 

[Beetleman72]

Well we may have something in common. But this started between me and one other member, ryan redwood or something. That's all it had to be, me and him. I didn't insult anybody else at all on the forum, they just began bombarding me with negativity. I have loved the few weeks i've been on this forum but if people like you are going to keep attacking me I'm going to at least have to to a vacation from this mob mentality thing going on here.

I'm impressed with how well you took that and in hindsight that was probably a little more harsh than it needed to be. However, nobody on here is trying to offend you or I would think that they would be a little more direct, so for the sake of civility in your future threads the next time you think someone is talking down or insulting u, it might be better to just let it go rather than calling them out and having your threads derailed by ass holes like me. Best wishes to you and your trees.

 

[Beetleman72]

And believe me I've been in your shoes on this forum. Once I made the mistake of titling a post, well I dont remember, but something about "jap maple". Nothing but an abbreviation and how my landscaping coworkers and I refer to Acer palmatums. Well the next day the thread was 3 pages long from where a few people had called me out for using a "racist" word, then a bunch of people jumped on the people who jumped on me and I thought I was going to start a bonsai riot lol.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

But someone told me to find another hobby. .

Seriously? You're overreacting more than I thought you would. I never told you to find another hobby. You seem extremely impatient, which is why I said "MAYBE BONSAI ISN'T THE BEST HOBBY FOR YOU " just like that. Get over it.

Goodness gracious.