Grow light, umol, heat and light pollution indoors

[Aphystic]

Ok, so this will be my first winter with my bonsais. I live in Sweden 7a zone, it gets cold and dark here.

I’ve been planning to build two shelves on a wall with two Mars hydro sp150 (20000lumen/each!) grow lights.

The trees I have are; a carmona, zelkova, sageretia and portulacaria afra (Fukien tea, Chinese elm, sweet plum and dwarf jade).

Am I exaggerating the grow lights? Should I get something weaker?
Will it pollute my entire apartment with light? It’s 20.000lumen!
Do I need to have fans?
And lastly; is it ok if it’s just about 10cm air gap between the top of the light and the next shelf made out of wood?

Thanks

 

[Srt8madness]

I'd want more of an air gap but that's just me.

The sun is about 2000 u/Mol m² at high noon, these are considerably lower but should do just fine, and can be compensated by keeping them on longer.

Yes they will be very bright.

 

[hemmy]

Very bright. I have some 300W spider farmer SE3000 in a grow tent in a garage (for tropicals, seriously, just tropicals, lol). One is probably double your light output and they are too bright for a living space. I put T5 fluorescent over my shelf in the kitchen because the LED are just too bright.

If you get lights with removable drivers (the part that makes the most heat), you could put them on a side with a fan and get the shelves closer. But I found that my LED were too close to my ficus and the optimal distance seems to be over 50-60cm away. The T5 fluorescents are just a few to several cm away.

I like the small clip on fans. The Air King brand has worked well for me.

 

[Aphystic]

Will they

I'd want more of an air gap but that's just me.

The sun is about 2000 u/Mol m² at high noon, these are considerably lower but should do just fine, and can be compensated by keeping them on longer.

Yes they will be very bright.

be too bright to be kept indoors without a tent or such?

 

[Aphystic]

Very bright. I have some 300W spider farmer SE3000 in a grow tent in a garage (for tropicals, seriously, just tropicals, lol). One is probably double your light output and they are too bright for a living space. I put T5 fluorescent over my shelf in the kitchen because the LED are just too bright.

If you get lights with removable drivers (the part that makes the most heat), you could put them on a side with a fan and get the shelves closer. But I found that my LED were too close to my ficus and the optimal distance seems to be over 50-60cm away. The T5 fluorescents are just a few to several cm away.

I like the small clip on fans. The Air King brand has worked well for me.

Do you reckon these will be unbearable to have indoors in a living space?

Is there some other recommendation? On Reddit everyone recommended something at this kind of brightness.

 

[Glaucus]

It will be way way brighter than what would be comfortable as a light indoors during the evening.
But not that bright that you absolutely need to put on sunglasses.
Also, if it is low by the ground, it isn't too bad. You won't need a fan to cool for just 1 200watt panel.
But just a light might not be enough to keep them healthy. Bugs indoors is a real issue. As well as lower humidity.
Starting some tomato plants indoors early is different from moving your bonsai from outdoors to indoors during winter. But you might be able to give them a short period of dormancy in autumn, then move them indoors.
Moving them outdoors again is also tricky as it may trigger a dormancy response early or mid spring. Or, you may have really tender growth from growing indoors.

You would only need 600 umol/m2/s. For weed plants, they recommend 1000 umol/m2/s, so these panels are usuually capable of that.

 

[Aphystic]

It will be way way brighter than what would be comfortable as a light indoors during the evening.
But not that bright that you absolutely need to put on sunglasses.
Also, if it is low by the ground, it isn't too bad. You won't need a fan to cool for just 1 200watt panel.
But just a light might not be enough to keep them healthy. Bugs indoors is a real issue. As well as lower humidity.
Starting some tomato plants indoors early is different from moving your bonsai from outdoors to indoors during winter. But you might be able to give them a short period of dormancy in autumn, then move them indoors.
Moving them outdoors again is also tricky as it may trigger a dormancy response early or mid spring. Or, you may have really tender growth from growing indoors.

You would only need 600 umol/m2/s. For weed plants, they recommend 1000 umol/m2/s, so these panels are usuually capable of that.

But if it’s only on during the day and mounted at around 1-1.5meter, is it gonna be annoying or such? It has a small plate around the light source to limit the spread of the light but I’m just afraid it’s gonna be super bright and annoying. I’m thinking about putting it in a hallway at home but there are no doors to the living room (a wall is there but also an opening rather close).

The alternative is to buy a more square shaped light 40x30cm and have it closer to the floor somewhere and hope that it doesn’t spread the light as much and annoy me when being at home.

 

[Glaucus]

People sometimes think that they can bring plants inside, set them nicely in a fashionable stand, put a light on top that illuminates it nicely, so it looks really good.
But that is a thing for house plants. Not for outdoor plants.
In terms of outdoor plants, think about a more industrial approach. Part of your living room will become a farm. You can always block the light somewhat with a mylar board, to block some of the light from annoying you.
But it is going to be super bright. If you want to bear that in your living room is up to you. If somehow you just don't care or are rarely there, it doesn't really matter. Also, you can keep the lights on during the night and the beginning of the day, so that it is nigh for the plants during your evening. Which might work. If the lights go on at 3 AM, they can go off at 5PM. Not sure if your ambient light in the evening will be too bright for their dark period. But you can even make them go on only at 5 AM, so they have 12 hours of LED light and a couple of hours of your ambient light. DLI-wise, they should then get the umols they need.

The thing is also, there panels are not for shelves. The elongated LED panels are for 2 weed plants rather than 1 (or 4). There are LEDs for shelves out there that would act like a long T5 bulb. I have seen some of these tested on YT and their efficiency was poor.

Also, it it turns out that they don't really like your indoor growing setup, and it is early January and they are declining, you can't just move them outdoors.

 

[Aphystic]

People sometimes think that they can bring plants inside, set them nicely in a fashionable stand, put a light on top that illuminates it nicely, so it looks really good.
But that is a thing for house plants. Not for outdoor plants.
In terms of outdoor plants, think about a more industrial approach. Part of your living room will become a farm. You can always block the light somewhat with a mylar board, to block some of the light from annoying you.
But it is going to be super bright. If you want to bear that in your living room is up to you. If somehow you just don't care or are rarely there, it doesn't really matter. Also, you can keep the lights on during the night and the beginning of the day, so that it is nigh for the plants during your eveningt. Which might work. If the lights go on at 3 AM, they can go off at 5PM. Not sure if your ambient light in the evening will be to light for their dark period.

The thing is also, there panels are not for shelves. The elongated LED panels are for 2 weed plants rather than 1 (or 4). There are LEDs for shelves out there that would act like a long T5 bulb. I have seen some of these tested on YT and their efficiency was poor.

The trees I have are indoor bonsais, or ambidextrous at least and can be used either outside or indoors.

But I reckon you do not recommend the sp150 and instead would go for a more square shaped light?

 

[Glaucus]

Is the SP1500 the very elongated one? It might be the one I was talking about that are designed for shelves. I don't remember.
Efficiency is about saving cost on electricity. So there could be good reasons to buy a less efficient light.
I edited my post a bit btw.

 

[Aphystic]

Is the SP1500 the very elongated one? It might be the one I was talking about that are designed for shelves. I don't remember.
Efficiency is about saving cost on electricity. So there could be good reasons to buy a less efficient light.
I edited my post a bit btw.

Mars Hydro SP 150 140W LED Grow Light for Indoor Veg Flower

Used SP150 with a thick aluminum passive heat sink, offers cultivators high efficacy but low heat environment, helping maximize crop yields

marshydro.eu

It’s this one.
I’m actually planning to have it in a hallway but one side of the light will be somewhat exposed when sitting in the living room. I don’t mind if it’s bright right at the plants but I don’t have a football field light in my entire hallway.

 

[hemmy]

Do you reckon these will be unbearable to have indoors in a living space?

Is there some other recommendation? On Reddit everyone recommended something at this kind of brightness.

If by “these” you mean my SE 3000s, yes. I would not put them in my living space. As @Glaucus said, your 150 will be very bright. But it might be tolerable if it is lower to the ground, shielded, on during the day and in a hallway.

Here’s a pic of my west facing window with my Agrobrite 4ft, 4 bulb T5 light. It also advertises 20,000 lumens. We don’t even turn the overhead room light on because it lights up the whole room. But it is tolerable. The window is also inset so it blocks some light. I considered LED for the lower shelves. But enough light seems to get through the clear shelves to the houseplants below. The upper trees are olive and Portulacaria. Sometimes I bring in a bougainvillea when it has color. But otherwise the low humidity of a heated, winter living space is a challenge.

 

[Aphystic]

If by “these” you mean my SE 3000s, yes. I would not put them in my living space. As @Glaucus said, your 150 will be very bright. But it might be tolerable if it is lower to the ground, shielded, on during the day and in a hallway.

Here’s a pic of my west facing window with my Agrobrite 4ft, 4 bulb T5 light. It also advertises 20,000 lumens. We don’t even turn the overhead room light on because it lights up the whole room. But it is tolerable. The window is also inset so it blocks some light. I considered LED for the lower shelves. But enough light seems to get through the clear shelves to the houseplants below. The upper trees are olive and Portulacaria. Sometimes I bring in a bougainvillea when it has color. But otherwise the low humidity of a heated, winter living space is a challenge.

View attachment 503065

Would you think a 10w 60cm led strip would be enough if kept close to the trees to just make them survive the winter? I’m not looking for crazy growth but survival and at least be in an OK state before spring comes.


I live in an apartment which a lot of lumen is gonna cause struggle and issues.

 

[Glaucus]

Some LED strip on ebay sold for house plants is on a completely different level compared to an actual LED >1.9umol/watt efficiency panel used for cannabis plants.

Yeah, that is the elongated model. That's not a LED strip but a slightly less efficient slightly more expensive version of the usual LED panels.

These are optimized to project all their light to a specific area. So it depends on the area you need to cover. If you have smaller plants, you could line them up and use a SP150.
If you get a more square panel, you put your plants in the square area. So for shelving, the square panels are not good because light is wasted.

 

[Aphystic]

Some LED strip on ebay sold for house plants is on a completely different level compared to an actual LED >1.9umol/watt efficiency panel used for cannabis plants.

Yeah, that is the elongated model. That's not a LED strip but a slightly less efficient slightly more expensive version of the usual LED panels.

These are optimized to project all their light to a specific area. So it depends on the area you need to cover. If you have smaller plants, you could line them up and use a SP150.
If you get a more square panel, you put your plants in the square area. So for shelving, the square panels are not good because light is wasted.

Now it’s all in Swedish but it’s these 10w https://ledmegastore.se/vaxtbelysni...lt-spektrum-vitt-ljus-ip65-5744002523932.html

I just don’t want my apartment to become a football field

 

[Glaucus]

"Pro-Grow 2.0 på 10 cm höjd ovanför växten ger 128 PAR / μmol / m2s."

So they give about 1/10th of the light compared to a cannabis panel, hotspot vs hotspot.
You'll need at least 3 to 5 of these together to get a decent amount of light for an outdoor plant.

You either try to grow outdoor plants indoor with a dedicated setup. Or you grow house plants indoors. You can't really have it both ways.
If you grow house plants, you can use a few LED strips to decorate them nicely to make them look a bit better. Since Covid19, I believe there are many youtube channels with people who are very dedicated into growing house plants and that impelent some LED strips.

A Chinese elm is more like a cannabis or tomato plant than like a ficus or a Chinese money plant. So a few ornamental LED strips will only work with actual indoor house plants.

 

[Aphystic]

"Pro-Grow 2.0 på 10 cm höjd ovanför växten ger 128 PAR / μmol / m2s."

So they give about 1/10th of the light compared to a cannabis panel, hotspot vs hotspot.
You'll need at least 3 to 5 of these together to get a decent amount of light for an outdoor plant.

You either try to grow outdoor plants indoor with a dedicated setup. Or you grow house plants indoors. You can't really have it both ways.
If you grow house plants, you can use a few LED strips to decorate them nicely to make them look a bit better. Since Covid19, I believe there are many youtube channels with people who are very dedicated into growing house plants and that impelent some LED strips.

A Chinese elm is more like a cannabis or tomato plant than like a ficus or a Chinese money plant. So a few ornamental LED strips will only work with actual indoor house plants.

That makes sense. Ok, if I were to get a ts1000 or ts600 instead of sp150 then I could probably put up mylar around it to stop my apartment from becoming the sun itself, maybe that’s a better idea?

 

[Glaucus]

What light to get depends on the area you need to cover, and how much PAR that area has to receive.
Definitely get something with a dimmer.
Mars Hydro TS1000 can cover a 60 by 60cm area. You'd need a way to hang it from the ceiling. Then, you can hang it quite low like 60 to 100cm above the floor. Then you'd probably turn it down a bit to about 60-70% of the total output. That gives you a nice 450 to 600 umol/m2/s, which should be good for a plant like an elm or other outdoor trees. If you get a fold-out piece of cardboard that is 1 by 4 meters, you can indeed put mylar screen around it so you enclose the area. This gets rid of some of the light scattering around (as well as increasing the efficiency).
Which makes it that you can't see the plant. Hence my point that you can't very easily put outdoor bonsai indoors to decorate your living room with, like an aquarium would. Looks like Hemmy is kinda able to do that thanks to that alcove.

Growing outdoor plants indoor is harder than growing them outdoors. I always get gnats and I can't get rid of them. I tried a humidifier and a fan to make the growth more robust, but that doesn't fully work.
There is an added difficulty in growing mature bonsai vs young material. But in terms of light, yes the most budget LED cannabis panel with a dimmer is probably your best bet for growing outdoor trees indoors.
There is a gazillion types of silly LED lights and strips on Amazon, but those are not the same on terms of producing daylight-intensity light indoors. Unless you have quite a lot of trees indoors, you don't need a more expensive higher watt version of these LED boards.
This channel is one of the best in terms of reviewing these lights:

I believe that Maxsisun MF1000 and Senelux SE-1000 are the best budget LED panels with a somewhat lower wattage than the Mars Hydro TS1000. Thought you might not be able to find them.

If you want to grow crazy with growing elms indoors, there is like a 50 page thread by Cmeg1 on here, doing advanced stuff to younger material.

 

[hemmy]

Would you think a 10w 60cm led strip would be enough if kept close to the trees to just make them survive the winter? I’m not looking for crazy growth but survival and at least be in an OK state before spring comes.


I live in an apartment which a lot of lumen is gonna cause struggle and issues.

I only have 1 winter of experience indoor growing. So I only know about what I have used. I think @Glaucus has made sound recommendations.

The trees I have are; a carmona, zelkova, sageretia and portulacaria afra (Fukien tea, Chinese elm, sweet plum and dwarf jade).

We should address that in Europe it seems Ulmus parvifolia (Chinese Elm) is imported as “Japanese elm” and “Zelkova” to get around import bans. I understand that U. parvifolia can be grown indoors as tropical/sub-tropical, but I have not tried it. Outdoors in coastal Southern California they would have a short dormancy or growth pause where sometimes they didn’t lose leaves until the new growth started in the spring (lows of 45-50F / 7.2 - 10C). But true Zelkova require dormancy that probably can’t be achieved inside a living quarters. It sounds like you are aware of this based on what you wrote.

If you have a balcony, you might be able to rig a heated box for dormant trees. But that would also be a big engineering challenge depending on numerous factors and also a possible fire danger.

The elm and sweet plum indoors are probably going to need higher humidity than what will be typical for indoor winter heating. In my experience, the Portulacaria will tolerate lower light and enter a pause in growth. But be careful about overwatering when they are not actively growing.

Hence my point that you can't very easily put outdoor bonsai indoors to decorate your living room with, like an aquarium would. Looks like Hemmy is kinda able to do that thanks to that alcove.

Correct, the light pollution is tolerable, but probably not if I had high output LEDs. I also plan on rotating the olives into the garage “Mediterranean” setup which is light but above 45F(7.2C) for some dormancy. They didn’t seem to respond with strong growth this Spring.

Use the search function on here for some examples from other growers on their indoor setups. I think some might have a shelf with plastic tent that can hold humidity but also be opened periodically for air flow. But even with that, bugs and fungus will still be a battle.