RobertB
Chumono
Ok. never mind. I am very new to this. I was thinking taper also mean starting some ramification. I figured that taper is created for the most part by ramification.
Acer palmatum
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Ok. never mind. I am very new to this. I was thinking taper also mean starting some ramification. I figured that taper is created for the most part by ramification.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
You see...whats going to happen here is your going to not get it, and then you'll ask a question and force me to explain all this over again like I have so many times on this forum. I'll have to go shoot pictures of shoots and why they need to be pruned early to set them up for the chopping later the next year, why growing them long willy nilly just sets up the internode length in the branch rendering it useless later when cutting back....and all that sort of stuff.
I'll explain all that, post all the pictures, show you my trees and how it worked and then someone will want to argue about it, and tell me after 33 years why it won't work and I'm doing it wrong. So...if you were in my place would you be excited about someone wanting to know more? You gonna do the work, can you do the work, can you follow instructions. Can you do it with out question? Those are the things one is expected to do when following someone with the knowledge and learning.
Secret No. one. Its not about thickening.......
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
RobertB
Chumono
I have noticed that in the maples ive been growing, seems like you need to pinch the early growth out on branches you want to keep and develop in order to keep the internodes short. I went back and looked at the OPs branches and they definitely have long internodes close to the trunk and probably other places, so even cutting back to the first bud seems like it could kill the branch and just bud out at the base.
For the ones, ive been working on, i have several week shoots that i was planning to use for branches one day, if they live and stay with small internodes. I have a LONG time on my trees I am growing trunks right now on my japanese maples.
Thank you.
RobertB
Chumono
I will also so some searching in the next day or so and see if I can find some of your mentioned discussions. I have definitely read alot of your blog.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
First hot day here....so not working out side tonight much. 100 today.
Think of building branches on a maple or any deciduous tree for that matter like a game of chess. A expert chess player may have five master moves in his head while thinking about your next several moves and those you might make, and those you won't make. All in his head at the same time and never for even a second allowing you to know what he is thinking. You got to do that on a maple too. If you don't out think the tree you'll never build branches in scale with the tree. Building branches is about scale. I've seen maples with ungainly branches that were out of proportion and had terrible internode length. There are some species of maple that do not lend themselves well to bonsai culture and there are some that are very good. Kiyohime is one that is very good for bonsai culture when kept as a larger tree. When kept as shohin they require almost daily pruning like an elm and are difficult to keep in scale because even though their leaves are small, their internodes are large. Really large. Kotohime is the one that I love it is short internode and has small leaves, a joy for shohin.
So back to building a branch. Building the branch right takes years. it is not done in a season or even in two seasons. Branch building takes time and knowing how to use that time can make for an easier process down those long years it takes to do it right. Building branches is all about setting ones self up for success. Why would anyone want to set them selves up for failure?
Rule number one, forget about all the branches on the tree right now. Unless there is something really good going on with one figure on removing them all when the time is right. When is the time right? When the tree grows so hard in the can that growth looks like a big shaggy mess. Shoots about 18 inche long all over. Thats when you start building a tree. You talk above about using some small weak shoots. Why would you want to start a tree with weak shoots? get the tree healthy first. get strong growing shoots that are popping all over the trunk. Thats number one.
Rule number two, one shouldn't even be thinking about branches till they get the trunk where they want it. the tree should have a plan and the plan starts with the trunk and the line. this should all be done in a growing container and not a bonsai container. It need not be done in the ground and anyone that thinks ground growing is the best for maples they are dead wrong. Nothing really good happens in the ground and if it does it takes years in a container to improve it because its so coarse.
Rule number three, know your plant. You have to know exactly what that species does in your climate and soil and watering. You have to know how its going to pop in the spring and what to expect. I can't explain what to do for you because what I do will probably not work where you live, how you water definitely how your fertilize or how much time you spend with your plants. Is this just a hobby to you? do you wish to have a tree in a prestigious exhibit some day? ...or are you just puttering?
So what do I mean by setting up for success.
Well it means having something in the future to cut back to. If one is lucky a plant will bud and pop a shoot on a trunk just where you want it. It happens. Again if your lucky, there will be a node ring about a 1/4 inch from the trunk. The shoot will elongate and the next node will unful leaves and then the next and then the next. That first node ring is the most important part on the shoot. It has to be watched like a hawk. I mean daily for the first week. If one is lucky it will not have leaves. the buds will just sit there. It is the trees mechanism for accidents and your best friend. The latent buds will sit there untill something triggers them to come alive. Wind breaks the branch, a limb fall out of the neighbors tree and breaks the limb. Nature figures that if a limb is knocked off, it may not get broken all the way off. These buds are the saviors. The adventitious buds that will preserve the tree and its ability to make food. We can use those buds to our advantage.
Why is this so.
This is something I have never been able to figure out. It does not happen on all branches and happens more or less it seems at random. If you look at those node rings, the one that will lay in that first 1/4 inch of branch, the leaves never open and the branch will send out the first set of leaves at the next node and then continue out and make a next set of leaves all the while extending the length of the internode while doing it. that first set of leaves may start at about 1/2 inch from that first pair of buds that nevr open and while the shoot lengthens the internodes do as well. They keep lengthening as much a 4 or 5 inches. It is those long internodes that we DO NOT want to cut back to. What we need to do is watch that first not opening set of buds and cut back to them. We have just put the tree into jeopardy mode. A branch is gone, a branch is gone. The tree then sends out two shoots from that pair of buds. Now this is the important part. Make sure to cut back to the first pair of leaves after bud break. Let the emergency shoot put on two or three (if internodes are small) and then cut back to the first pair. This may happen in all of two weeks. after that let the two pairs of buds that will break on each tip do the same thing. So now in about two inches of extension we have a primary wye and four secondary wyes. No from here you can allow this whole apparatice grow and thicken always manageing the whole thing and making sure it does nt get out of shape with long internodes. you can allow extension up to 1/3 of an inch from the six wyes as long as you keep a node close to each wye. Manage what you need to cut back to always and let stuff beyond that grow. If all this work is done in the first weeks after spring bud break the tree will not even hiccup and grow like a son of a bitch. Thats providing you prepared the tree for the work and its strong....hey we shouldn't be working on weak trees right???
Now if you do this to all the branches on the tree, you can grow very ramified branches when your ready cause you will have something to cut back to and be prepared to do it. Also, very important, don't let people tell you your maple branches are small and not in scale with the tree. Don't try and grow your branches to half an inch in diameter with out the proper ramification. Smaller branches can stay on the tree longer. there is nothing wrong with having a 1/4 inch first branch on a tree 18 inches tall if its properly ramified and looks great. It just means all the work you did to get it there can be enjoyed for a long time.
Hope that helps.
Think of building branches on a maple or any deciduous tree for that matter like a game of chess. A expert chess player may have five master moves in his head while thinking about your next several moves and those you might make, and those you won't make. All in his head at the same time and never for even a second allowing you to know what he is thinking. You got to do that on a maple too. If you don't out think the tree you'll never build branches in scale with the tree. Building branches is about scale. I've seen maples with ungainly branches that were out of proportion and had terrible internode length. There are some species of maple that do not lend themselves well to bonsai culture and there are some that are very good. Kiyohime is one that is very good for bonsai culture when kept as a larger tree. When kept as shohin they require almost daily pruning like an elm and are difficult to keep in scale because even though their leaves are small, their internodes are large. Really large. Kotohime is the one that I love it is short internode and has small leaves, a joy for shohin.
So back to building a branch. Building the branch right takes years. it is not done in a season or even in two seasons. Branch building takes time and knowing how to use that time can make for an easier process down those long years it takes to do it right. Building branches is all about setting ones self up for success. Why would anyone want to set them selves up for failure?
Rule number one, forget about all the branches on the tree right now. Unless there is something really good going on with one figure on removing them all when the time is right. When is the time right? When the tree grows so hard in the can that growth looks like a big shaggy mess. Shoots about 18 inche long all over. Thats when you start building a tree. You talk above about using some small weak shoots. Why would you want to start a tree with weak shoots? get the tree healthy first. get strong growing shoots that are popping all over the trunk. Thats number one.
Rule number two, one shouldn't even be thinking about branches till they get the trunk where they want it. the tree should have a plan and the plan starts with the trunk and the line. this should all be done in a growing container and not a bonsai container. It need not be done in the ground and anyone that thinks ground growing is the best for maples they are dead wrong. Nothing really good happens in the ground and if it does it takes years in a container to improve it because its so coarse.
Rule number three, know your plant. You have to know exactly what that species does in your climate and soil and watering. You have to know how its going to pop in the spring and what to expect. I can't explain what to do for you because what I do will probably not work where you live, how you water definitely how your fertilize or how much time you spend with your plants. Is this just a hobby to you? do you wish to have a tree in a prestigious exhibit some day? ...or are you just puttering?
So what do I mean by setting up for success.
Well it means having something in the future to cut back to. If one is lucky a plant will bud and pop a shoot on a trunk just where you want it. It happens. Again if your lucky, there will be a node ring about a 1/4 inch from the trunk. The shoot will elongate and the next node will unful leaves and then the next and then the next. That first node ring is the most important part on the shoot. It has to be watched like a hawk. I mean daily for the first week. If one is lucky it will not have leaves. the buds will just sit there. It is the trees mechanism for accidents and your best friend. The latent buds will sit there untill something triggers them to come alive. Wind breaks the branch, a limb fall out of the neighbors tree and breaks the limb. Nature figures that if a limb is knocked off, it may not get broken all the way off. These buds are the saviors. The adventitious buds that will preserve the tree and its ability to make food. We can use those buds to our advantage.
Why is this so.
This is something I have never been able to figure out. It does not happen on all branches and happens more or less it seems at random. If you look at those node rings, the one that will lay in that first 1/4 inch of branch, the leaves never open and the branch will send out the first set of leaves at the next node and then continue out and make a next set of leaves all the while extending the length of the internode while doing it. that first set of leaves may start at about 1/2 inch from that first pair of buds that nevr open and while the shoot lengthens the internodes do as well. They keep lengthening as much a 4 or 5 inches. It is those long internodes that we DO NOT want to cut back to. What we need to do is watch that first not opening set of buds and cut back to them. We have just put the tree into jeopardy mode. A branch is gone, a branch is gone. The tree then sends out two shoots from that pair of buds. Now this is the important part. Make sure to cut back to the first pair of leaves after bud break. Let the emergency shoot put on two or three (if internodes are small) and then cut back to the first pair. This may happen in all of two weeks. after that let the two pairs of buds that will break on each tip do the same thing. So now in about two inches of extension we have a primary wye and four secondary wyes. No from here you can allow this whole apparatice grow and thicken always manageing the whole thing and making sure it does nt get out of shape with long internodes. you can allow extension up to 1/3 of an inch from the six wyes as long as you keep a node close to each wye. Manage what you need to cut back to always and let stuff beyond that grow. If all this work is done in the first weeks after spring bud break the tree will not even hiccup and grow like a son of a bitch. Thats providing you prepared the tree for the work and its strong....hey we shouldn't be working on weak trees right???
Now if you do this to all the branches on the tree, you can grow very ramified branches when your ready cause you will have something to cut back to and be prepared to do it. Also, very important, don't let people tell you your maple branches are small and not in scale with the tree. Don't try and grow your branches to half an inch in diameter with out the proper ramification. Smaller branches can stay on the tree longer. there is nothing wrong with having a 1/4 inch first branch on a tree 18 inches tall if its properly ramified and looks great. It just means all the work you did to get it there can be enjoyed for a long time.
Hope that helps.
RobertB
Chumono
Wow. Thank you sooo much for your time and effort here. I wish there was some way I could repay the favor. I'm going to read this over and over again for the next few days. Save it on my desktop, then read it again and again. Thank you much. If your up to it, I can pm you some shots of the tree I'm referring too. It's a t
Three yr old seedling I chopped this year due to lack of movement in the location I wanted it. I have several sacrifices growing very vigorously all over the tree, along with some small week shoots. I also really like the kiohime. I have one. It put out a set of leaves this year and has been hardly pushing since, think I had it in too much sun. It's a two yr old from cutting.
Shima
Omono
Good idea. When there's a plethora of information like this I've taken it to the next step and printed it out. It's near impossible to absorb the detail without reading over and over, putting it into action and seeing the results. Patience and dedication. Not for the weak of heart.
Well, hi everyone.. it looks like Smoke was typing the whole time I was asleep! Lol.
Hey @Smoke , you are of course correct (as if you needed reassuring of that!). This tree has had its last 2 years marred by bad health and leaves ravaged. It’s been left 2.5 years since purchase, not been touched, to just grow and get healthy. This year it was a complete bush, in great health (in my opinion). So this was my time to cut back, this is in keeping with your advice.
Yes it has incredibly long internode length, I noticed that
, so I cut back as drastically as I felt I could, to induce that back budding, to give me more options to cut back to further. I hope this is the correct practice, by your opinion?
All of this trees branches need redoing, it’s no secret at all. Just looking for the best way to do that. I could cut back further but due to my lack of experience, I did not believe it’d back bud. If it’s got 1-2 node rings and they don’t pop, whole branch gone most likely, right?
Your advice and diagram on branch pruning is extremely helpful. So simple right? But it helps the penny drop. I look forward to being able to do that, as soon as my branches are ready for it. Currently, as I think you’ll agree, there’s no use following that pruning scheme till I’ve got the first 2-5 inches of every branch, correct. no point building a good branch if it’s first 5 inched is a long straight taperless stick.
Hey @Smoke , you are of course correct (as if you needed reassuring of that!). This tree has had its last 2 years marred by bad health and leaves ravaged. It’s been left 2.5 years since purchase, not been touched, to just grow and get healthy. This year it was a complete bush, in great health (in my opinion). So this was my time to cut back, this is in keeping with your advice.
Yes it has incredibly long internode length, I noticed that
, so I cut back as drastically as I felt I could, to induce that back budding, to give me more options to cut back to further. I hope this is the correct practice, by your opinion?All of this trees branches need redoing, it’s no secret at all. Just looking for the best way to do that. I could cut back further but due to my lack of experience, I did not believe it’d back bud. If it’s got 1-2 node rings and they don’t pop, whole branch gone most likely, right?
Your advice and diagram on branch pruning is extremely helpful. So simple right? But it helps the penny drop. I look forward to being able to do that, as soon as my branches are ready for it. Currently, as I think you’ll agree, there’s no use following that pruning scheme till I’ve got the first 2-5 inches of every branch, correct. no point building a good branch if it’s first 5 inched is a long straight taperless stick
.I will follow this advice. The reason I didn’t cut back as you advice here is because I felt the tree needed to improve its health. It’s not had a great past 2 years and so I believe I had no choice but to let it grow untouched to regain vigor. The downside of course is the long crap branches but now I’m in a better position to regrow and work the tree.
Stop me if you believe I’m wrong.
It might not be hard, once you’ve been there and done it.. I assure you, as a first time maple experience of pruning, everything’s not quite so simple or at least we believe it’s not.
You must have been in our shoes at one point right? Doing what we can then getting ripped to shreds by someone’s criticism but learning and doing better next time!
papymandarin
Shohin
if the tree is healthy and was not trimmed earlier this season you can cut drastically now (even if it's meaning no leaves remaining), just let 2-3 nodes on the branches (it is often not bad to have 1 node "more" compared to what you want to keep in the end to "suck off" vigour, this distal node wil likely make strong shoots with long nodes while the more interior ones wil bud less strongly with shorter nodes, after the tree regrowth you can remove this "Sacrifice node" and its shoots), it should back bud everywhere. When a maple is healthy, you should have much more buds than you need each time you cut back ...
Well I hope you are exactly right about that! I’ve given it a drastic cut back now, so if my timing is correct, it will hopefully back bud loads now and give me loads of options to cut back to
.This is no short term project and quick fix. I’m in for the long haul and learning experience.
my nellie
Masterpiece
I feel obliged to express heartfelt thanks to @Smoke for his time and consideration on this matter (...just for one more time)
See @ConorDash ? It was not in vain that I had tagged him and his older thread (...just one more among lot of others)
Happy, cool summer everyone!
See @ConorDash ? It was not in vain that I had tagged him and his older thread (...just one more among lot of others)
Happy, cool summer everyone!
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
You must have been in our shoes at one point right? Doing what we can then getting ripped to shreds by someone’s criticism but learning and doing better next time!
First of all there was no internet when I began working maples. No one ever ripped me to shreds because I never shared things as I taught myself what to do. You don't have to put everything you guys do on the internet. You can just work on stuff in your own backyard and have fun while you experiment. When you have some success take pictures along the way and then post what you did how you started and the grand reveal of a great tree.
I don't share my failures.......thats the difference
Pardon my frankness but I’m not interested in a debate on how different generations do things, whilst I appreciate both your point of views.
Personally, if I can learn from the internet in 1 day, what it would take me 1 year by experimenting/trial and error to learn otherwise.. I’m going to do that. Of course I am, I’m a sane individual.
Of course all my trees aren’t special, but I still want to treat them as best I can. Inevitably I will make mistakes, AS WE ALL DO OR DID, but I will try my best any way
.I realise I don’t have to put it all on the internet Smoke, and if people complained or didn’t wanna see it (aside from ignoring it) they could say (or not join a forum whose purpose is to do just that).
This is how I learn.. it’s not feasible for me to go clubs or privately hire a tutor, if I could, I would. But this is the reality and I deal with it, how I can.
Anyways, on topic, please proceed to rip me a new one on my views (check last 2 posts), I’m here to learn. If I’m wrong in my thinking, correct me. Go for it guys
.
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Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Sorry guys I don’t have time for all the drama. Happy days
Lazylightningny
Masterpiece
Is it too late for this procedure now?
No, which is why I intended to defuse it and get back on track.
Let’s not play innocent Mr Smoke, there’s no sole blame on either side, be fair, it’s shared. Let it not said you don’t give as good as you get aye
. But we are adults, let’s act like it and get back to topic of trees.If not, thanks anyway for your time, you got plenty of thanks already for it, it’s obvious that it’s appreciated.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
What is wrong with you people.Let’s not play innocent Mr Smoke, there’s no sole blame on either side, be fair, it’s shared. Let it not said you don’t give as good as you get aye
I don’t OWE any of you anything. I’m not your personal study buddy. I don’t wish to look at your trees. Take some responsibility for your own education. Pay for it if you must but don’t tell me how I have to act. I don’t appreciate it.
Cheers
