Where to hack this Hackberry?

[bones101]

I saved this 24" box Celtis occidentalis from the dumpster at work in November 2010. It wasn't easy (involved a chainsaw on the top and bottom) but I chopped it down enough to get it into my little car. I wasn't sure it would even survive but apparently it has (all the growth is post-chop). Just above the hideous nebari, the trunk is 5" diameter. Original cut is at 21". It's still mostly in it's original potting soil, about 1' deep.

So now what? I'd like to repot it into better soil and make a final chop in the next few weeks. But I don't know where to make the cut. I guess this will be some sort of broom style. Unless there are other options? Should I just do an off-center V-cut at about 1/3 the proposed height? I expect this to be a very long-term project mainly because of the nebari problem so the sooner I figure out what I'm doing the better!

Thanks for any advice.

 

[JudyB]

I hope you are being sarcastic calling the nebari "hideous". There is plenty of potential down there, nice flair, and plenty of rootage to choose from... I would try the v shaped chop, if you know where your front will be, if you do it when you're not sure, then the scar can be very visibly bad from the front later on. How tall do you want the final tree to be? Because it looks like you have a decent amount of branching to choose from.

The only bad nebari is no nebari if you ask me.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

At this point you might be better off just reducing each clump of shoots down to the single strongest shoot and letting it go another year. This will concentrate the energy and give you some heavy growth and options for the next section of trunk when you do decide to chop.

Also, always find the best front by putting the best view of the nebari toward the front, and building good trunk sections above it.

 

[Mike423]

I agree, I would pick the side that has the best surface roots which appears to be the right side pictured. This tree has some great nebari and the roots a;ready seem to be situated pretty well. I when you repot I would just try to remove any tap roots that are heading strait down under the trunk to start getting it ready for a shallower pot. As far as soil mixtures I'm sure someone in your area on this forum site can give a optimal mixture with components that are highly attainable. Also be sure to remove all the sucker growth popping out of the roots and trunk base when you repot as suckers will only drain energy from the tree.

As for shaping the tree I would also recommend what Brian already has mentioned.... making a final chop at the lowest branch (red line) and start shaping this tree into a informal upright by wiring the new leader shortly after the chop to start giving it some movement. Remember when making a chop you want to make sure the new leader is in the desired front of the tree). After the initial chop be sure to run over the edges of the trunk chop with a sharp knife VERY LIGHTLY to make sure the cut is clean (it will make it heal cleaner) and then seal the chop with some cut paste.

 

[bones101]

OK, now I've chickened out about chopping it. I would hate to cut too much off. Brian's advice seems reasonable - reduce the shoots and give it another year. Just repotting will be a big enough project for now.

But...I feel like I could change my mind again any minute now. With the 6:1 height ratio law, my 5" dia. trunk means 30" or less for height. I could see chopping at Mike's red line too. What to do, what to do.

Maybe the nebari isn't as bad as I thought. We'll see at repotting time.

Those aren't suckers in the pot. They're cuttings of Rhus integrifolia and something else (I always think I'll remember what things are so I don't make labels, hah). If I do find any suckers though I will remove them.

Thanks for the advice!

Sharon

 

[Ang3lfir3]

With the 6:1 height ratio law, my 5" dia. trunk means 30" or less for height. I could see chopping at Mike's red line too. What to do, what to do

just remember its certainly not a LAW or even really a rule..... its a suggestion to be used as a guideline or tool in creating proportion .... that is all .... if you start now trying to create a formulaic true... you will end up with one and it will be really boring....

so use it for what it is... a helpful tip..... beyond that.... create what looks like a tree... strangely enough the trees are not aware of the "rules/laws" ....


for inspiration here is a photo my wife took of the Ben Oki hackberry at The Pacific Rim Bonsai Collection , its one of our favorites

 

[Zach Smith]

Your biggest issue here is that there's no taper at all on this trunk, so you're pretty much compelled to chop it low unless you plan to attempt a broom style. I'd plant the tree in the ground after chopping it, then let it grow wild for the season with the only work being to encourage a single leader (which I wouldn't pick until summer). In a few years you should have something you can work with.

Good luck!

Zach

 

[JudyB]

just remember its certainly not a LAW or even really a rule..... its a suggestion to be used as a guideline or tool in creating proportion .... that is all .... if you start now trying to create a formulaic true... you will end up with one and it will be really boring....

so use it for what it is... a helpful tip..... beyond that.... create what looks like a tree... strangely enough the trees are not aware of the "rules/laws" ....


for inspiration here is a photo my wife took of the Ben Oki hackberry at The Pacific Rim Bonsai Collection , its one of our favorites

That Ben Oki hackberry is such a great tree! Thanks for posting it. Putting it in my inspiration file....

bones, I understand your reluctance. First thing you need to do is figure out what your end goal is for the tree to be styled like. That will help you decide what your process is to get there. This tree looks like a good candidate for a broom to me, but could be grown out like Zach says to get an upright going.

And just what is it about the nebari that you think is so bad? This tree is all about that nebari for now, it is the one best feature.

 

[Mike423]

And just what is it about the nebari that you think is so bad? This tree is all about that nebari for now, it is the one best feature.

I agree (the blue area I circled in the pic was what i thought would be the best front since the nebari was the best). planting the tree in the ground for a few years will speed up the progression of development, you'll notice the tree will have substantially more vigor.

 

[Randy]

So I keep reading "broom style" and it seems to me that this might be misleading aside from the traditional sense. Almost any deciduous tree in nature would be some form of "broom style". If we were to choose a naturalistic route for most bonsai would not that mean that many deciduous tree would fit into that category? Don't they all just end up pretty much in a big ball of foliage? Perhaps it would help to use more adjectives and emotions invoked by tree to describe the end state or goal like Judy suggested. Lets try.

Sprawling, old and twisted oak tree.
Graceful and open maple tree.
Spooky and decrepit hawthorn tree.
Strong, reaching beech tree.

Just a thought.
I think Zach and Judy are right on, chop low and pick a leader and maybe even carve it out if the fancy strikes.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Sprawling, old and twisted oak tree.
Graceful and open maple tree.
Spooky and decrepit hawthorn tree.
Strong, reaching beech tree.

We have a winner .... that right there is pure gold .... couldn't have said it better myself...

 

[Smoke]

Sharon, bring it to the shohin convention, I would love to take a gander at it. I will also have a saw in the back of the truck, just in case you want to make a shohin in the parking lot.

Even if you don't bring it, I am sure we will run into each other.

See ya there.

 

[JudyB]

We have a winner .... that right there is pure gold .... couldn't have said it better myself...

+1 on that. Good verbiage to add to the lexicon. I was speaking "broom style" in the broad sense of the term, these are far better descriptives for pathways.

 

[JudyB]

Sharon, bring it to the shohin convention, I would love to take a gander at it. I will also have a saw in the back of the truck, just in case you want to make a shohin in the parking lot.

Even if you don't bring it, I am sure we will run into each other.

See ya there.

That is an offer you shouldn't refuse...

 

[bones101]

Dang Al, I wish I was but I'm not going to make to it Santa Nella this time. I would have liked to have gotten your opinion (and maybe some chopping). Have fun!

 

[Smoke]

Dang Al, I wish I was but I'm not going to make to it Santa Nella this time. I would have liked to have gotten your opinion (and maybe some chopping). Have fun!

Too bad, see ya next time, and keep looking at the tree, sooner or later "It" will tell you what to do.

 

[bones101]

Like Judy said 'figure out what your end goal is for the tree to be styled like' - that is exactly my problem. I'm not picturing anything yet. Well, OK now I can picture a Ben Oki-type tree. And it's good to hear that it doesn't have to be a broom style. Hopefully, I can find inspiration soon and then get to work!

 

[JudyB]

Now that I've seen the Ben Oki in person, and seen this thread again, I'm wondering if there are any updates to this tree?

 

[GastroGnome]

As long as somebody's going to bring up the naturalistic debate, the "informal brooms" that Randy's referring to are "forms", not "styles". "Broom style" refers to "Japanese Zelkova in an open field". That being said, I think this could make a great "broom style", as hackberrys easily lend themselves to the style with fine twigging and clumping branchlets. Guy Guidry has a couple monster ones of around the 30" size that are really impressive in person, and we're started with no more than a big collected stump. I don't have a shot of the othe one but this ones pretty good too.

 

[JudyB]

This is a wonderful tree in the photo, I wonder if you have any others of this tree without leaves? It is something of a style that I aspire to have one of someday.

Form. That is a much better descriptive than style. Thank you for adding that to the discussion, too often the water gets muddied with confusing terms. Form is such a clear word.