It might be…but what is it? Lol
Where did superfly get Haydite from?
- Thread starter Alfi
- Start date
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Colorado
Masterpiece
Just use Akadama.
It’s much better anyway……
It’s much better anyway……
BillsBayou
Chumono
"What type of Waste does Norlite Burn?
Norlite is currently permitted to burn hazardous waste, different types of waste fuels, used oils, fuel oils (such as building heating oils #2, #4, and #6) and natural gas in the kilns. Under Norlite's authorization to burn hazardous and non-hazardous waste, they accepted, blended and burned as fuel, a type of firefighting foam called aqueous film forming foam (AFFF), which contains per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS). Norlite is no longer burning PFAS chemicals. PFAS chemicals do not naturally break down easily and persist for a long time in the environment, especially in water. High temperature incineration is one method being used and is now being extensively studied by the United States Environmental Protection Agency as a disposal method for these substances."
By the time the firing is done, the hazardous waste may have fully decomposed during combustion. My worry is whatever chemical processes are taking place as the shale is turned into haydite. That's just me. If my potter friend told me his tableware was fired in a hazardous-waste-fueled kiln, I would not be drinking my morning coffee from it. "Bill, I swear. All the used oil is burned off in the process. Perfectly safe." "Yeahhhhhh ... no."
Fugitive particles in the air were the toxin. No indication the dust contained any contaminants beyond that.
Not a dumpster fire. Rotary kiln fire. It's like a dumpster fire, but the dumpster is tumbling down a hill as it burns.
My contribution to the world of silly things:
BillsBayou
Chumono
What I said was (highlighting punctuation)
Two sentences. But that's okay. I type like I speak. Not always clear on either front. Couple that with my hearing difficulties and I'm a conversation wonderland.
BrightsideB
Omono
The pic @BillsBayou posted a couple pages back looks nice for the stuff. Maybe worth a try.
Bob Hunter
Shohin
I asked for the source what he replied I posted.... He is on facebook if you have more questions Andy Youtz
I tried outside facebook, he didn’t respond. Im not on facebook, but i think i have a junk login to see pages. I’ll try find the correct person with that name.
MaciekA
Shohin
Very entertaining and strangely informative thread.
I wish to add west coast fuel to this fire and riff off of some wisdom that @rockm dropped a couple thread pages ago (namely that Haydite isn't just one thing).
I've found that @rockm 's rule "soil component typically sold as X is never really just one specifically-guaranteed thing" is also quite true of pumice in the western USA. The range of characteristics between pumice particles from differerent mines / states / mountain ranges is surprisingly wide. Porosity can vary dramatically, color, presence of other minerals, etc etc. Also, some regional pumices (eg: Idaho's Hess mine) will even have a high incidence of obsidian particles in them.
I think pumice is more of a continuum of characteristics than our singular label gives it credit for. I mostly use Oregon-sourced stuff now, but I don't worry too much about this or that pumice. I blend the pumices from different sources and move on with my bonsai life.
I assume many on this site will agree with the notion that a lot of other choices and practices exert a greater lever on horticulture than the precise variety of particle X.
I'd say this is clearly true of akadama as well. The differences between akadama mines are perhaps not as dramatic as "this Haydite is literally a totally different mineral / chemistry from this other Haydite", but enough that people notice. Similarly for lava, but maybe to an smaller degree: I thought scoria was pretty consistent until more recently when I took a close look at the stuff that a friend ordered by the truckload for a pre-bonsai farm.
Final thought: If this is about appearance and that's why it absolutely has to match the bag you bought way back when, then consider hoarding the remainder of your Alfi Grade Haydite™ and using it as top dressing only. I do this with some things such as the extra small akadama or black lava.
On the other hand, if this is about matching performance and characteristics, I join the chorus of people who say "this seems like a lot of trouble for a particle that ain't even that special".
I wish to add west coast fuel to this fire and riff off of some wisdom that @rockm dropped a couple thread pages ago (namely that Haydite isn't just one thing).
I've found that @rockm 's rule "soil component typically sold as X is never really just one specifically-guaranteed thing" is also quite true of pumice in the western USA. The range of characteristics between pumice particles from differerent mines / states / mountain ranges is surprisingly wide. Porosity can vary dramatically, color, presence of other minerals, etc etc. Also, some regional pumices (eg: Idaho's Hess mine) will even have a high incidence of obsidian particles in them.
I think pumice is more of a continuum of characteristics than our singular label gives it credit for. I mostly use Oregon-sourced stuff now, but I don't worry too much about this or that pumice. I blend the pumices from different sources and move on with my bonsai life.
I assume many on this site will agree with the notion that a lot of other choices and practices exert a greater lever on horticulture than the precise variety of particle X.
I'd say this is clearly true of akadama as well. The differences between akadama mines are perhaps not as dramatic as "this Haydite is literally a totally different mineral / chemistry from this other Haydite", but enough that people notice. Similarly for lava, but maybe to an smaller degree: I thought scoria was pretty consistent until more recently when I took a close look at the stuff that a friend ordered by the truckload for a pre-bonsai farm.
Final thought: If this is about appearance and that's why it absolutely has to match the bag you bought way back when, then consider hoarding the remainder of your Alfi Grade Haydite™ and using it as top dressing only. I do this with some things such as the extra small akadama or black lava.
On the other hand, if this is about matching performance and characteristics, I join the chorus of people who say "this seems like a lot of trouble for a particle that ain't even that special".
BillsBayou
Chumono
Blended isn't for me. I prefer a single malt.
Great post.
I recently added several amendments to my little January booth in Baton Rouge. People want different things for different reasons. But I'll tell everyone that the real difference is how you water and feed. Although most trees can go in most soil mixes, you should either match the soil to your care routine, or you should change your care routine to match your soil.
When a beginner looks at me with a blank stare, I hand them a bag of 50/50 (haydite/pine bark) and say "Don't overwater. Don't let it dry out.)
I think there’s some confusion regarding what this thread is for. I am not looking to debate which soil is better or why.
I was just asking if anyone knows where to get this particular substrate. Not something similar, this exact one. Shouldn’t be hard to grasp, but for some it is.
Justifying why I want it is not a required prerequisite to finding it.
There also seems to be a group of people that can’t grasp that all Haydite is expanded shale, but not all expanded shale is Haydite. It’s like tissue paper vs Kleenex.
Gabler
Masterpiece
I think this thread proves otherwise.
BillsBayou
Chumono
There may be some confusion as to what this web site is for: Bonsai conversations. We are looking to debate which soil is better and why.
Substrate components (soil) is the most hotly debated subject in bonsai. No other topic compares. Everyone uses some sort of substrate and has an opinion about their choice.
You created an account with the sole purpose of getting the single answer to a single question. The problem seems to be that you have encountered a community of Chatty Cathys who want to open conversations with everyone. You've given us nothing about yourself, your experience, your collection, your successes, your needs. All we really know about you is "That guy wants haydite from a specific manufacturer's specific mine." To which we're all saying "Really? Haydite? That's a strange request." Not unlike trying to find the specific vineyard for a bottle of supermarket wine.
Go to a wine discussion board and post "I'm looking for the vineyard where Superfly Supermarket got their Superfly Wine."
Everyone who replies is going to ask "Why?"
Same thing as what you're getting here. Expanded shale is a boring all-purpose substrate; neutral pH, available everywhere, reasonably priced, gets the job done. The "Superfly Wine" of bonsai.
Correct. But asking you "Why?" is how we open discussions. If the exact haydite is so hard to find, explaining your needs may lead to an equal or better replacement. We're here to help. We ask provocative questions.
Specificity like that about a boring substrate is made by one of three people.
- Beginners who fixate on things for the wrong reasons (like I used to do).
- Well-researched experts who know exactly why their trees do so damned well.
- Treasure hunters who know that at the center of every particle of Superfly Bonsai expanded shale is a gold nugget. (Or caramel. I'll take either.)
My original substrate was neither Haydite nor expanded shale. It was moist clay strip-mined from the land behind the plant. Looked like Haydite. Acted like Haydite. Tasted like Haydite. But it was gray-blue Louisiana clay.
The specific answer to your specific question is "Norlite. Cohoes, New York".
Andy told me that 10 days ago. That's why I wanted to know where you are. Expanded shale is usually sold by manufacturers as they load it into big trucks. If Norlite will sell it to you in a supersack, you can drive over and pick it up. It's going to weigh at least 1,800 lbs (≈816kg). That is, if anyone is still working at the plant.
What you should know is that just like Superfly Bonsai, Norlite's manufacturing is closed. Workers have been laid off.
They used to do two things at Norlite. They used to make expanded shale by burning hazardous wastes in their kilns. Their plant is currently closed because of investigations by the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation. The NY DEC is investigating Norlite's failure to trap fugitive air-borne particles and their mismanagement of the surrounding waterways.
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rockm
Spuds Moyogi
There is no confusion other than yours as an apparent beginner new to all of this. The EXACT substrate you want doesn't really exist, as the basic ingredients shift along with the producers and distributors. Unless you can find the exact batch of Haydite that you seem to be tied to, the EXACT stuff no longer exists.
FWIW, You can't even name WHAT you're after other than a brand/company name--which produces a host of substrates.
Your original source has dried up and gone out out of business. Get over it. You know how many times that has happened to anyone doing this longer than ten years or so? I've had a dozen that did that over the last 20 years. It comes with the territory. For whatever silly reason you're clinging so hard to this phantom ingredient, it doesn't really matter. Adapt, move one, your effort is better spent on finding a decent (or better) alternative.
Not all haydite is exapanded shale, Blah blah blah. IT DOESN'T MATTER, for God's sake man...Both will work. Both HAVE worked and WILL work.
BillsBayou
Chumono
I didn't know that the pit bull in your profile pic could type.
BrightsideB
Omono
Same discussion about making glazes. You have to deal with what’s available and make it work to the best of your ability. It sucks but also challenges you to learn so might as well quit or roll with it.
We haven’t come to the conclusion that you can’t buy it anymore. Some articles say Norlite is only closed temporarily while they do maintenance and reduce their giant stockpiles of material.
Unfortunately in this shut-down state they probably won’t be responsive to emails.
But then again, finding it for sale isn’t really the point of the thread, just identifying it. Which I believe we have.
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BillsBayou
Chumono
A week and a half of conversation and attitude just to identify the source. That might be a stronger "Why?" But I've stopped caring.
WTMKF
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
This smells to me like the plant is pretty much closed and the owner is probably evaluating whether its worth the fight against the state. When companies start saying things have nothing to do with long, taxing legal battles and they closed for maintenance and to sell off stockpiles of material, you can bet things ARE because of the long taxing legal battles and they're looking to get as much return as possible before getting the F out...Speaking as a former business journalist.
Norlite temporarily shutting down "core operations" in Cohoes
On Monday, Norlite, which mines shale and produces aggregate materials, announced it is temporarily shutting down core operations at its Cohoes facility.“Norlit
cbs6albany.com
Interestingly, the other substrate that looks very similar to Norlite, Northeast Solite, is located an hour away.
“Solite® is manufactured from Esopus shale, a laminated sedimen-
tary rock found in the old Hudson River bed. The formation runs
all the way up to Canada – along the west side of the river – and
has the perfect chemical composition for making this revolu-
tionary concrete aggregate.”
Both are right to the west of the Hudson. Very likely these are identical.
This may also give a name to it. “Expanded Esopus Shale”.
“Solite® is manufactured from Esopus shale, a laminated sedimen-
tary rock found in the old Hudson River bed. The formation runs
all the way up to Canada – along the west side of the river – and
has the perfect chemical composition for making this revolu-
tionary concrete aggregate.”
Both are right to the west of the Hudson. Very likely these are identical.
This may also give a name to it. “Expanded Esopus Shale”.
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rustygarden
Mame
I agree on the single malt lol .
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