What We Learned About Bonsai Since John Naka

[Adair M]

Smoke,

Wm Valavanis stayed in my house back in the early 1980's when the Atlanta Bonsai Society had him come in to do workshops. I think he had published two or three years of International Bonsai at the time. Incidentally, he too had studied in Japan.

His publishing translations of articles in Japanese bonsai magazines was a revelation for those of us not fortunate enough to live in California.

I also remember looking at some magazines titled Golden Moments or Bonsai in California. I picked them up, thumbed thru them and put them back down. Generally, they were pictures of California Junipers. We don't have trees like that here in Georgia, so they didn't interest me.

The Internet has been a great source of information about bonsai. So have the people who have returned from serving as apprentices in Japan. The information available now far exceeds the information we had back when John Naka was teaching. John would come to Atlanta once a year for workshops. I wish I had the opportunity to visit his back yard.

Things have changed since then, Smoke. Maybe you were fortunate to know all about akadama, pumice, and lava since the '70s, but I can tell you I didn't know about in the 80s. I remember the day David Cook excitedly told me about Turface and how it was the secret ingredient we had been missing! My mix then was turface, granite grit, and pine bark. We thought we were cutting edge! I use none of those materials today.

Look, someone asked Hagedorn what's changed in the past 30 years. Evidently, for you, nothing has since you've known it all since then. But that's not been the case for everyone. I suspect things will continue to change, and thirty years from now, someone will asking the Masters the same question: What's changed in Bonsai since 2015? I bet there will be plenty

 

[Smoke]

Smoke,

Wm Valavanis stayed in my house back in the early 1980's when the Atlanta Bonsai Society had him come in to do workshops. I think he had published two or three years of International Bonsai at the time. Incidentally, he too had studied in Japan.

His publishing translations of articles in Japanese bonsai magazines was a revelation for those of us not fortunate enough to live in California.

I also remember looking at some magazines titled Golden Moments or Bonsai in California. I picked them up, thumbed thru them and put them back down. Generally, they were pictures of California Junipers. We don't have trees like that here in Georgia, so they didn't interest me.

The Internet has been a great source of information about bonsai. So have the people who have returned from serving as apprentices in Japan. The information available now far exceeds the information we had back when John Naka was teaching. John would come to Atlanta once a year for workshops. I wish I had the opportunity to visit his back yard.

Things have changed since then, Smoke. Maybe you were fortunate to know all about akadama, pumice, and lava since the '70s, but I can tell you I didn't know about in the 80s. I remember the day David Cook excitedly told me about Turface and how it was the secret ingredient we had been missing! My mix then was turface, granite grit, and pine bark. We thought we were cutting edge! I use none of those materials today.

Look, someone asked Hagedorn what's changed in the past 30 years. Evidently, for you, nothing has since you've known it all since then. But that's not been the case for everyone. I suspect things will continue to change, and thirty years from now, someone will asking the Masters the same question: What's changed in Bonsai since 2015? I bet there will be plenty

Your arguing semantics..... Bonsai is still a comb.

 

[rockm]

It's a granted that bonsai has grown considerably in its breadth of common knowledge since the 1950's. Indeed, the cradle of American bonsai is in California (and to Bill Valavanis' credit and heroic efforts--the northeastern U.S.)

However, Smoke has a point that all the "new" knowledge and many of the current experts was learned initially from domestic teachers. Interesting to see the humble beginnings of many. You have to start somewhere.

I may add that I've noticed that more than a couple of the Japanese-trained "masters" around have default settings to "traditional/Japanese" when it comes to a variety of things, from design to soil to fertilizer and ideas. That's expected and it's good and bad.

It promotes the idea that if the Japanese do it, it MUST be the best thing to do. Not good to do something because it's knee-jerk or some auto 'wax on wax off" Pavlovian response. While those practices can work in many cases, they can be a problem--rote design and inflexibility to local environments, species and requirements are both down sides. Blindness to opportunity and preconceived notions are others.

 

[sorce]

really hate are those from China in two tone color and Chinese writing all over them.

What is the deal of those?
Adairs olive has me wondering!

___


I told you people don't understand Smoke.
Watch as it unfolds.....

It's as simple as a comb.
But people try to make more sense of it.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

No one was born a bonsai master. Every one, even the great Kimura, had to learn the "basics" from someone else.

Here in America, until the 1940's, we had no "generational" knowledge base. We started from a blank slate. Sure, there were a few Japanese from before the war who had bonsai. Their knowledge came with them when they immigrated, or their parents. We're these people "Masters"? Maybe. Maybe they were hobbiests. Whatever, it doesn't matter. But, we in the US didn't invent bonsai. The Chinese started it, but it was the Japanese who took it to the high level it is today. So, it's only natural that if one wants to learn how to produce high quality bonsai, it only makes sense to learn from where the highest quality bonsai are produced.

If I wanted to be able to cook like a "French Chef", do you think it better to learn that skill at home? Or go to France?

 

[Adair M]

What is the deal of those?
Adairs olive has me wondering!

___


I told you people don't understand Smoke.
Watch as it unfolds.....

It's as simple as a comb.
But people try to make more sense of it.

Sorce

Actually, Sorce, I don't much care for that pot. That's a "cheap Chinese" pot. I'm on the lookout for a better one. But that pot was large enough to contain the tree. It's a "training pot". But, the tree is still in training. I'm in no rush. A nice pot that size will be expensive, so I want to be sure it's the right one.

Imported pots that size are rare because it's larger than the standard shipping box. I may have to get a pot made for it. We'll see.

 

[GrimLore]

Michael Hagedorn explains 10 things that we learned about Bonsai since John Naka.

Tell Mike that only two things have changed since Naka that have anything to do with Bonsai. Please do not be offended as that is not my intent - just my observation;

1) The USA is less polluted.
2) The rest of the world is more polluted.

Bonsai itself has not changed - a plant in a pot is still Bonsai 盆栽 as it was long before our time. There seems to be a tendency for young people to "want it" to be so they can somehow claim to be part of some great revelation, revolution, or movement. Want in one hand, What's in the other? Laziness is another factor - if it is on the internet it is so...

Grimmy

 

[thumblessprimate1]

William Valavanis
View attachment 89624

Handsome guy. That's the first time I've seen him so young.

 

[Mark]

I'm calling Bullshit on this....

Thats a deleted scene from American History X. The one right before this one.View attachment 89629


Sorce

Please explain your comment "I'm calling Bullshit on this...."

 

[sorce]

cheap Chinese"

Thank you!

I always wondered if they were coveted.
Or if some were....and some are knockoffs..

They are odd....

Sorce

 

[Giga]

Bonsai is bonsai-guess you can get caught up in who knows what and where we learned what(and these thing are important). I enjoy bonsai for what it is , and where it's going. I learn the best I can from all the people that made the headway-whether it's the generations in Japan or the people here in the US. I like this saying from a scientist-" headway is headway- whether it's a failure or a success you still learn from it and have a greater sense of knowledge." People clash-myself included ,but Smoke has some amazing stuff and despite his thorns hes got great stuff and knows what he's doing. @Andrew Thomas you seem to like throwing names for you argument or who you studied with or been there. Maybe throw some of yours trees for argumets like @Smoke can.

 

[sorce]

Please explain your comment "I'm calling Bullshit on this...."

Sorry, that's just what people say.....
So I'm using it too.....
Except to say......

Lol.. That's not Bill V. That's a deleted scene from American History X....

Which is......completely B.S. in itself....very clearly.....I thought.....Complete Bullshit....

But..."hey that's not Bill V."

Would not be as funny, or funny at all.

I even had to edit the post to add the picture.......just to make it clearer.
Just in case someone didn't see the movie.

But obviously.....a picture from the 1800's..(that's a joke too....because I don't want to go check the date....and its old as dinosaur shit) is not clearly as unclear as a modern day picture of a Cinematic Experience everyone should enjoy!

I hope this has you a wee bit more confused!

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[DougB]

Hey Smoke why don't you gather up your factual memories and those of your compatriots and write "The Factual History of Bonsai in North America". I for one would eagerly seek to read it.

 

[sorce]

Hey Smoke why don't you gather up your factual memories and those of your compatriots and write "The Factual History of Bonsai in North America". I for one would eagerly seek to read it.

Too many groupies at the book signing!

Sorry.

Sorce

 

[DougB]

Too many groupies at the book signing!

But Smoke you are so loved!

Merry Christmas

 

[Geo]

Bonsai is bonsai-guess you can get caught up in who knows what and where we learned what(and these thing are important). I enjoy bonsai for what it is , and where it's going. I learn the best I can from all the people that made the headway-whether it's the generations in Japan or the people here in the US. I like this saying from a scientist-" headway is headway- whether it's a failure or a success you still learn from it and have a greater sense of knowledge." People clash-myself included ,but Smoke has some amazing stuff and despite his thorns hes got great stuff and knows what he's doing. @Andrew Thomas you seem to like throwing names for you argument or who you studied with or been there. Maybe throw some of yours trees for argumets like @Smoke can.

He has already done that. Check them out.

 

[Adair M]

Sorce, that picture of Bill Valavanis is exactly how he looked back in the early '80s when he spent the weekend at my house.

 

[Smoke]

It is obvious to me that there is much more to this story than what it seems. It was posted as a slam dunk...I said it isn't...I was right. Even TMZ, Smoking Gun, The Onion and Drudge get it wrong on occasion.
Adair, I do hope you get caught up on what we are talking about.

Paradigm shift
From this



To this


A paradigm shift
From this


To this

 

[Adair M]

Sorry, Smoke. It appears I am unable to keep up with times. I just came back from seeing the new Star Wars movie.

And I drove this:


I do try to keep up.

But we're a little behind the times back here in the hills of Georgia. This one has no autopilot.

 

[Smoke]

This is not a paradigm shift.
From this

Does not get this


The first tree is that of a hobbiest and is the results of his talent.
the second is a better tree because of the results of "his" talents.

Both have put their tree in a pot, both have achieved their out line by pruning and both have created branches by wiring. The mechanics are the same, and have been for over 60 years in America. Nothing in that regard has changed, except the ability to call someone Bull Shit in real time on the internet. Semantic tangents provide no useful information to the argument, things like copper or aluminum, crossing wire or not, akadama versus kitty litter. These things are tips that have made the hobby more professional but are not necessary and in some cases, based on climate down right detrimental to the health of the tree.

This has nothing to do with studying in Japan, or working with a teacher or watching You Tube video's of Ryan work on pines. There are plenty of people out there that have made very beautiful and world class worthy bonsai thru the decades with absolutely no training and just their God given talent.