Tulip Poplar

[ohiogrown]

Are you from Ohio? I know a million other factors come into play but the only tree I have with bud movement is a larch. That’s awesome how many roots that thing had! CAnt wait to check mine now!

 

[Wilson]

Ain't no half steppin! Good work as usual brother. It seems like a tree that will develop a beautiful nebari.

 

[just.wing.it]

Ain't no half steppin! Good work as usual brother. It seems like a tree that will develop a beautiful nebari.

That's what I'm aiming for, as long as that takes...will be multiple chops over many years...I may begin chopping next year, because I also want to keep the scars small and easily healed.
Thanks!

 

[just.wing.it]

Are you from Ohio? I know a million other factors come into play but the only tree I have with bud movement is a larch. That’s awesome how many roots that thing had! CAnt wait to check mine now!

I'm in MD.
All my deciduous trees plus a few evergreens were in the attached garage for winter...it has south facing windows and doesn't stay as cold as I'd like, especially when we have a week or more of 70-80 degree days in February...

Gotta do what I gotta do.

 

[rockm]

You'd be surprised at the leaf size.
Many were about one square inch this past year, I f'd up and deleted a bunch of good pics to prove it.

And the only to know is to try...
I like the idea of toying with a native tree such as this.
I also expect to have many say it's a waste of time, many are entitled to their opinions.

Well, umm, err. OK some opinions have been developed by actually living with one of these for more than a year or two. Not worth the trouble. Leaf size is only one issue. extreme tendency towards gawky awkward branching. Spindly saplings are NOT the material to work with if you want a decent tulip poplar bonsai. Shoot for BIG, BIG BIG stock, like 8-12 inch diameter trunk and four feet of tree...

 

[just.wing.it]

Well, umm, err. OK some opinions have been developed by actually living with one of these for more than a year or two. Not worth the trouble. Leaf size is only one issue. extreme tendency towards gawky awkward branching. Spindly saplings are NOT the material to work with if you want a decent tulip poplar bonsai. Shoot for BIG, BIG BIG stock, like 8-12 inch diameter trunk and four feet of tree...

It's getting there.
?
Trunk more than doubled in girth in one year, without a tile underneath.

 

[just.wing.it]

Well, umm, err. OK some opinions have been developed by actually living with one of these for more than a year or two. Not worth the trouble. Leaf size is only one issue. extreme tendency towards gawky awkward branching. Spindly saplings are NOT the material to work with if you want a decent tulip poplar bonsai. Shoot for BIG, BIG BIG stock, like 8-12 inch diameter trunk and four feet of tree...

Sorry, I was a bit rushed earlier...
I plan to ground grow this tree eventually.
I just can't do it yet.
We are in the middle of moving, and we'll be temporarily staying with my in-laws.
But when I get settled into a new place, I will be putting a bunch of stuff in the ground.

In the meantime, I have it in a container, might as well do what I can to build a base on it....
So far I like what I see.

I do appreciate your voice though, thank you!
I'll be sure to keep this one updated through the next decade or 2.

 

[rockm]

Sorry, I was a bit rushed earlier...
I plan to ground grow this tree eventually.
I just can't do it yet.
We are in the middle of moving, and we'll be temporarily staying with my in-laws.
But when I get settled into a new place, I will be putting a bunch of stuff in the ground.

In the meantime, I have it in a container, might as well do what I can to build a base on it....
So far I like what I see.

I do appreciate your voice though, thank you!
I'll be sure to keep this one updated through the next decade or 2.

Hope you're moving to a place that has ALOT of space for this to grow out. I wouldn't plant it in the ground within 25 feet of your house. They grow quickly when they have some roots and room for them to run.

This species has been tried by more than a few people for a very long time. I got over it years ago (as I also did with trying to tame Sycamore into bonsai) There is a reason (actually all of the reasons above) that it isn't in regular bonsai circulation...

 

[small trees]

I'm not sure if he's talking about die back that falls over winter, or green branches being broken off in wind....
Maybe @Adair M can clear it up for us.

I'm not Adair, but I live around these trees. I have several in the woods behind my house that are close to 100ft tall. And none of them have any branches for the first 70 feet. The branches just die and drop off as the tree grows. That means most/all of the branches you try to develop will fall off at some point.

 

[just.wing.it]

Hope you're moving to a place that has ALOT of space for this to grow out. I wouldn't plant it in the ground within 25 feet of your house. They grow quickly when they have some roots and room for them to run.

This species has been tried by more than a few people for a very long time. I got over it years ago (as I also did with trying to tame Sycamore into bonsai) There is a reason (actually all of the reasons above) that it isn't in regular bonsai circulation...

I understand, and again I appreciate that.
Maybe I just need to walk the same path myself.
Or maybe I can get lucky ?

I laughed at your sycamore comment, I also love them in nature, but I'd only take one if it was a very special yamadori of sorts...
We are looking for 3 acres minimum, and I want as much of it to be wooded as possible....never know what i might find!!!?

 

[just.wing.it]

I'm not Adair, but I live around these trees. I have several in the woods behind my house that are close to 100ft tall. And none of them have any branches for the first 70 feet. The branches just die and drop off as the tree grows. That means most/all of the branches you try to develop will fall off at some point.

Ahh I see...
Yes, same here, several out back that are 80'+...the tree grows up and up and up, shedding branches along the way.

I would venture to say that as a bonsai, it would not be the same... because in nature, the lower branches lose access to light as all the trees around it are also growing
In a pot, getting everything it needs, it would have no reason to shed limbs.
This is a very long term project.
Decades...no joke.

Edit:
Also, when the natural trees grow out back, they get to a height and size that they can sustain...at that point they don't drop major limbs, as far as I can see.

 

[rockm]

"I would venture to say that as a bonsai, it would not be the same... because in nature, the lower branches lose access to light as all the trees around it are also growing
In a pot, getting everything it needs, it would have no reason to shed limbs

Also, when the natural trees grow out back, they get to a height and size that they can sustain...at that point they don't drop major limbs, as far as I can see."

Not really how it works. Those huge lower branches are huge because they are strong IN SPITE of being overshadowed. They didn't get big in a short amount of time.

Trees reach physical limits of their tissues to move water. They grow THEIR ENTIRE LIVES. They DO NOT get to a height and size they can sustain optimally. They grow beyond that optimal size, which is why they die of "old age." With so much growing over hundreds of years, their PHYSICAL ABILITY to sustain big loooong roots and branches declines. This is because of the laws of physics, not really because of old age. Phloem and xylem can only carry water so far efficiently.

Tree die because of this all the time, especially deciduous tree, especially BIG deciduous trees such as oaks and tulip poplar and sycamore. Can take 300-400 years for such a tree to finally keel over, but they do.

Technically you can control this in a bonsai container, BUT you're also balancing the tree's physical needs and its health. A sycamore, tulip poplar, redwood, all want to be forest giants. They are very hard to turn from that path, long internodes, big leaves, strong apical growth. etc. all have to be controlled harshly. That control can wind up weakening such a tree in a container.

 

[just.wing.it]

"I would venture to say that as a bonsai, it would not be the same... because in nature, the lower branches lose access to light as all the trees around it are also growing
In a pot, getting everything it needs, it would have no reason to shed limbs

Also, when the natural trees grow out back, they get to a height and size that they can sustain...at that point they don't drop major limbs, as far as I can see."

Not really how it works. Those huge lower branches are huge because they are strong IN SPITE of being overshadowed. They didn't get big in a short amount of time.

Trees reach physical limits of their tissues to move water. They grow THEIR ENTIRE LIVES. They DO NOT get to a height and size they can sustain optimally. They grow beyond that optimal size, which is why they die of "old age." With so much growing over hundreds of years, their PHYSICAL ABILITY to sustain big loooong roots and branches declines. This is because of the laws of physics, not really because of old age. Phloem and xylem can only carry water so far efficiently.

Tree die because of this all the time, especially deciduous tree, especially BIG deciduous trees such as oaks and tulip poplar and sycamore. Can take 300-400 years for such a tree to finally keel over, but they do.

Technically you can control this in a bonsai container, BUT you're also balancing the tree's physical needs and its health. A sycamore, tulip poplar, redwood, all want to be forest giants. They are very hard to turn from that path, long internodes, big leaves, strong apical growth. etc. all have to be controlled harshly. That control can wind up weakening such a tree in a container.

Agreed totally.
I wasn't very clear.
Time will tell.

 

[Potawatomi13]

I would venture to say that as a bonsai, it would not be the same... because in nature, the lower branches lose access to light as all the trees around it are also growing
In a pot, getting everything it needs, it would have no reason to shed limbs.
This is a very long term project.
Decades...no joke.

Same point as my thinking. Strong supporter for this tree. Potted culture, energy balancing, light to lower foliage should yield better result as well as growing big tree.

 

[miker]

edit, posted before reading latest responses: Despite the evidence above against the effort, I say give it a try as an extra large bonsai. It may indeed be that the forces at work (or whatever genetic programming is involved) in randomly shedding branches on fullsize trees may not come into play when dealing with a 3-4' tree trained as a bonsai.

A few years ago I was surprised to find out that the tulip poplar is actually native as far south as the hardwood hammocks just north of Orlando. I took a drive by, looked closely, and sure enough, many mature trees are visible from the road (Longwood/Sanford area).

 

[just.wing.it]

Same point as my thinking. Strong supporter for this tree. Potted culture, energy balancing, light to lower foliage should yield better result as well as growing big tree.

I'm betting on it!

 

[just.wing.it]

edit, posted before reading latest responses: Despite the evidence above against the effort, I say give it a try as an extra large bonsai. It may indeed be that the forces at work (or whatever genetic programming is involved) in randomly shedding branches on fullsize trees may not come into play when dealing with a 3-4' tree trained as a bonsai.

A few years ago I was surprised to find out that the tulip poplar is actually native as far south as the hardwood hammocks just north of Orlando. I took a drive by, looked closely, and sure enough, many mature trees are visible from the road (Longwood/Sanford area).

Yeah, hopefully...
I also think that growing one out over a tile with frequent root work will result in something special, by the time the trunk is ready for chopping.
We will see, that's for sure!

 

[rockm]

Yeah, hopefully...
I also think that growing one out over a tile with frequent root work will result in something special, by the time the trunk is ready for chopping.
We will see, that's for sure!

By working the roots and trying to grow it out at the same time, you're slowing down the tree's ability to increase diameter. Trunk growth depends on a substantial (hopefully in-ground) root mass. "Frequent" root work will remove and/or disturb that root mass, resulting in a slower growing tree and increasing your time to develop a larger trunk.

If I were to mess with tulip poplar again, I'd plant a sapling like this out in the ground and leave it be for at least five years, then pull it up, remove the downward roots, throw a tile under it and leave it be for another four years at least--depending on what size trunk you're after. I suspect after five years of undisturbed growth, you might have a four or five inch diameter trunk at ground level. 're

If you're planting this out in the ground and pulling it up to work the root mass in two or three years, you're basically cancelling out why you put it in the ground. Trees need at least three years in the ground to take advantage of putting it in the ground. That time allows the tree to produce a root mass large enough to fuel the growth needed to increase trunk size...

 

[just.wing.it]

By working the roots and trying to grow it out at the same time, you're slowing down the tree's ability to increase diameter. Trunk growth depends on a substantial (hopefully in-ground) root mass. "Frequent" root work will remove and/or disturb that root mass, resulting in a slower growing tree and increasing your time to develop a larger trunk.

If I were to mess with tulip poplar again, I'd plant a sapling like this out in the ground and leave it be for at least five years, then pull it up, remove the downward roots, throw a tile under it and leave it be for another four years at least--depending on what size trunk you're after. I suspect after five years of undisturbed growth, you might have a four or five inch diameter trunk at ground level. 're

If you're planting this out in the ground and pulling it up to work the root mass in two or three years, you're basically cancelling out why you put it in the ground. Trees need at least three years in the ground to take advantage of putting it in the ground. That time allows the tree to produce a root mass large enough to fuel the growth needed to increase trunk size...

I won't disagree with you there.
But I will point you to this picture...
When I cut the tap root off in '17, the tree was either one or two years old, and it was the exact size of the dark spot there, which is dead wood now.
It went from .5" to 1.5" with no roots, in one year, that's substantial.
It may be only doing that in it's younger years, but hey, it's all positive so far..
And as I said, since I can't get it in the ground yet, I might as well do what I can to improve it in the meantime.

 

[just.wing.it]

Trees need at least three years in the ground to take advantage of putting it in the ground. That time allows the tree to produce a root mass large enough to fuel the growth needed to increase trunk size.

I'll remember this when I do put it in the ground.