power270lb
Shohin
Really wow, so just cut everything else out? For every tree? In the future could I just plant the Trident in straight DE?
Trident Maples bloomed then stopped, Chinese elms green but no buds
- Thread starter power270lb
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rockm
Spuds Moyogi
It's not weird. It points to probable winter killed roots. It happens with newly collected trees as well that have severely reduced roots. They can sprout initial growth in a couple of weeks, then it wilts and no more growth...ever. Your tree had enough energy to push new growth as tridents are extremely vigorous trees, but probably not enough to continue that growth. Roots are likely suspect as to why that is. Tridents are not dawn redwoods or vice versa. Just because one survives a dodgy winter, doesn't mean the other will.
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rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Do yourself a favor, BUY A BAG OR THREE OF DECENT BONSAI SOIL. Use that until you get the hang of care and individual trees' requirements. It sounds like you're not there yet. Soil is the engine that runs everything else. It's not a place to scrimp on or try to re-invent at first without knowledge to back up what you're doing. Here's a place to start
Deciduous Professional Bonsai Soil Mix - Premium Blend
SuperFly Bonsai's Professional Deciduous Bonsai Mix - Premium BlendThis mix is a variant of the most commonly used and accepted mix by bonsai professionals around the world. Here in the United States it is known as "Boons Mix" after Boon Manakitivipart. This mix has been modified to meet the...
www.superflybonsai.com
And FWIW, ask to see the trees that people giving advice on soil own. They can speak volumes more on the effectiveness of those recommendations.
To put my money where my mouth is--Here are a couple of mine--
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HorseloverFat
Squarepants with Conkers
Agreed... If I could go BACK... I'd START with decent soil.. and examine the composition..
I've killed trees with poorly geared soil mixtures... a few, actually.
I've killed trees with poorly geared soil mixtures... a few, actually.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
power270lb
Shohin
Wow my dude lol, beautiful. I am new and started this Thanksgiving 2020. To be completely honest this past winter I slacked off and didn't protect my trees like I could've. To this point they've all flourished, successfully grown 40+ from seed, cuttings etc I just left them outside with zero protection and kept saying I'll do it tomorrow. My own fault and I know what to do going forward. I've been using a 1:1:1 of DE, Pumice and lava rock and it worked great until my own laziness.Do yourself a favor, BUY A BAG OR THREE OF DECENT BONSAI SOIL. Use that until you get the hang of care and individual trees' requirements. It sounds like you're not there yet. Soil is the engine that runs everything else. It's not a place to scrimp on or try to re-invent at first without knowledge to back up what you're doing. Here's a place to start
Deciduous Professional Bonsai Soil Mix - Premium Blend
SuperFly Bonsai's Professional Deciduous Bonsai Mix - Premium BlendThis mix is a variant of the most commonly used and accepted mix by bonsai professionals around the world. Here in the United States it is known as "Boons Mix" after Boon Manakitivipart. This mix has been modified to meet the...
And FWIW, ask to see the trees that people giving advice on soil own. They can speak volumes more on the effectiveness of those recommendations.
To put my money where my mouth is--Here are a couple of mine--
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Not looking to insult you. If that's how it came off, sorry. However, your soil worked--until it didn't. I don't think you really get why that is...Such a lean mix doesn't allow you much time to do anything. It dries out quickly and if you're not very diligent in watering-summer, spring too--you're going to have problems.
By diligent, I mean having to water two or three times a day in mid-spring when the tree is growing quickly and using water. Add in days with wind, low humidity in that time and the same thing will happen.
A. Gorilla
Omono
I suspect your watering technique is wrong. More wrist.I am familiar with the displeasures of these types of soil.
This is one I got late last summer from @A. Gorilla .
View attachment 438712
The wind blew it over and out so I was able to learn some.
All the larger particles not directly amidst the smaller stuff fell out easily like it was completely ignored by the roots. "Inhospitable" if you will.
Truth, if a soil sounds crunchy, it is no good, it doesn't feel good to the soul.
More importantly......
We have to understand that no matter how much we water, the PRESSURE has to be greater than that of the inside of those deep pores of that large (lave, pumice) particle, greater than the surface tension repelling that water.
It's probably impossible to thoroughly wet such large particles without dunking them.
There is the test. Water regularly, then submerge it and watch the minutes of bubbling.
Every bit of that bubbling is wasted space.
No roots in it, no water, no life. Just wasted space.
I have to water these twice a day or they wilt.
Perhaps dunking could provide so much water they last 3 days?
It is better after consistent rainfall.
That is too large of a difference, causes too much inconsistency in water availability, which causes inconsistencies in growth, which makes it less predictable, which is harder to design.
Lessen all variables, beginning with soil particle size!
Sorce
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
I feel pretty confident that it isn't winter protection that's the issue, it's a combination of soil, pot, and watering.
Adding to what people have already said in this thread, it also makes a big difference what sort of container you are using. A tree in a plastic pot dries much more slowly than a tree in an unglazed ceramic pot. A tree in a pond basket dries fastest of all. I have found that using a pond basket, I never have problems associated with over-watering or saturated soils. However it is much easier to allow a tree to dry out, if you are not diligent about your watering, or using an automatic system.
After a while, you will be able to see signs when the soil is staying too wet, and one of the dead give-aways is algae on your soil components. Not moss - algae. It means your soil is staying wet for days at a time. When I look at your pic of that trident, I see very wet soil, with moss and algae. It appears to be in a plastic pot, and if the drain holes are blocked, you may have it sitting in a bog. In those conditions it is easy for the oxygen levels in the soil to crash, the soil becomes anaerobic, and the tree roots die.
Not saying that is what happening in this case, but it is where I would start my investigation.
Adding to what people have already said in this thread, it also makes a big difference what sort of container you are using. A tree in a plastic pot dries much more slowly than a tree in an unglazed ceramic pot. A tree in a pond basket dries fastest of all. I have found that using a pond basket, I never have problems associated with over-watering or saturated soils. However it is much easier to allow a tree to dry out, if you are not diligent about your watering, or using an automatic system.
After a while, you will be able to see signs when the soil is staying too wet, and one of the dead give-aways is algae on your soil components. Not moss - algae. It means your soil is staying wet for days at a time. When I look at your pic of that trident, I see very wet soil, with moss and algae. It appears to be in a plastic pot, and if the drain holes are blocked, you may have it sitting in a bog. In those conditions it is easy for the oxygen levels in the soil to crash, the soil becomes anaerobic, and the tree roots die.
Not saying that is what happening in this case, but it is where I would start my investigation.
power270lb
Shohin
Oh not at all my dude. Summer and spring I water twice a day and I'm on top of it, if I go away I have my neighbor who helps me out. This winter I just didn't water enough or protect, left everything out in the open and never checked it assuming rain/snow would be enough.
The only times I water multiple times a day are when the temp is 75-80 and up. Mid spring NYC it's anywhere between 50-65 if we're lucky. Most of my stuff was still inside until the first/second week of May. Is there another mix u recommend
power270lb
Shohin
I 100% didn't water over winter and left it to rain/snow. I only use plastic pots and most I just make my own. I have a lot of seedlings and it becomes expensive after awhile. Thought I was hot potato for not killing anything my first year.
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
Your soil can get saturated and trees can die even when you are only relying on rain water... even when you are using 100% inorganic soils and ceramic pots with adequate drainage. Using plastic increases the risk. Using deep pots increases the risk. Not repotting when necessary increases the risk. There is a reason why Ryan Neil (who lives in a rain forest) goes around and tilts his pots after a long sequence of rainy weather.
Note that I am saying "increases the risk". It doesn't mean "guarantees your trees will die". However after killing trees for 30+ years, I have gotten very good at recognizing and reducing risk factors. We just had a sequence of heavy rain on Thursday PM into Friday AM - and here we are on Sunday and many of my larger trees are still too wet for my liking, even though I haven't done any manual watering. And they aren't in deep plastic pots.
So I'll bet when you investigate, you are going to find a tree with a compromised root system that has crashed. What you probably now have is a trident maple cutting - still some life in the trunk but dead above and below. Aside from soil staying too wet, the next likely cause would be over-fertilization, but it appears you are using organic fertilizer and not much of it, so that doesn't appear likely (to me).
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power270lb
Shohin
So I have no idea how to check if a root system is compromised. You say it's a cutting is there anyway I can salvage this? The only thing I want from my trees at the moment is thicker trunks, is there a soil/size of pot youd recommend? I do use organic fertilizer pellets but I also use a 20-20-20 fertilizer powder. When using this fertilizer for example if you were to use a 1 quart bottle to fertilize your plants how much specifically do you use for each plant? The entire bottle? I never know if I'm using enough or too much.
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
The only way you can check the roots is by physically investigating. In some cases this may be as easy as gently removing the top layer of soil with a chop stick and seeing what you can see. In other cases you may have to lift the entire tree out of the pot, and, like an archeologist, gently remove layers of soil from the rootball. You are hoping to find light colored roots and active light colored root tips. What you hope you DON'T see is nothing but black and/or squishy roots, which are dead and provide no benefit to the tree.
There is definitely an art to the science of keeping trees in pots. You can look at the science and know that tree roots need (1) water (2) nutrients and (3) oxygen. But it can get overwhelming when you are faced with different soil, different pots, and different approaches towards watering, all of which you have to keep in balance. For example, a deep pot might help minimize water evap from the soil surface, but it increases the chances of soil saturation and oxygen depletion. A shallow wide pot may dramatically increase oxygen in the soil, but at the risk that if you miss a single watering the soil can dry out and the tree can crash. That is why I say you need to learn to read your soil, and read your trees. Soil with algae is staying too wet. A tree that is drooping (may be) staying too dry. Learn to listen to your trees when they aren't looking good.
As far as fertilizer goes, make sure you understand that too much is far worse than not enough. A tree can only use a certain amount of fertilizer, after which any excess is useless (if lucky) or detrimental (if not). It is very rare to kill a tree by under-fertilization, but I have probably killed more trees via over-fertilization than from any other cause. Every time I try to add more and more thinking that the tree will benefit, and then I cross the line and actually start harming the tree. The only advice I would give you is to read the label on the fertilizer package, and then fertilize at HALF the rate they recommend.
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power270lb
Shohin
LOLOL I've read so many times "use half recommended dosage" but house literally the first person to explain why. So for example I'll use a 1 quart bottle and adjust accordingly then I'll use roughly 1/3 to half over my tiger bark and the same over my Brazilian rain tree etc etc. How much specifically do u use?
The only reason I used a deep pot on the Trident was because I said "I want the tree to grow what do I do" and every answer was "stick in the ground or get a 5 gallon container and let it go." Now the way you explained everything I'm even more confused. For example desert roses, they're supposed to be in a container with roughly 2" of space all around and 4-6" deep them adjust and repot every 4-6 months. I have 12 Dawn Redwoods and put them in soup containers. If my only goal ATM is thickness of the trunk, how do you usually proceed from soil to container to pruning?
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
I don't use liquid fertilizer on my bonsai, but in general the instructions for Miracle Grow liquid (which I use on some landscape areas) is to first water the area thoroughly, then water a second time with water that includes a dilute mix of fertilizer. So for a bonsai I would do the same... water first, then allow the first water to drain, then water a second time with your fertilizer water. Focus less on "amount" and rather "water like normal - until the water starts coming out of the drain holes in your pot". The main thing is to never fertilize dry soil - and avoid chemical fertilizers if possible because it is very easy to overfertilize a tree in a container with them.
Don't confuse Adenium with a Trident Maple. Adenium is a desert succulent and should be treated like a cactus, so many of the "rules" of traditional bonsai do not apply. In the case of a Trident, if you want the trunk to thicken as fast as possible you have to let sacrifice growth run on the top, and you have to allow roots to grow on the bottom. There are lots of ways you can do this - from simply sticking a plant in a field (probably fastest method) to putting in an Anderson flat and letting roots escape through the bottom (my preferred method), to overpotting in a 5 gallon bucket, etc. Realistically you aren't going to grow a tree to 3" trunk caliper in a soup container... but you can certainly get that much growth in an Anderson flat... just don't forget to move it around every six months or so or you will end up with a landscape tree that you can't move
. Regardless of method, the rules of good soil, drainage, fertilization, oxygen, still apply. And aesthetically, since you are looking for horizontal roots and a nice flare at the base of the trunk, shallower wide environments are going to be better than narrow deep environments where the roots run straight down. If you grow out your trees in an Anderson flat and keep trimming any roots that run too aggressively out the bottom, you will know that regardless of how tall the tree gets on top, your refined rootball is going to be no more than perhaps 4" deep when the time comes to lift the tree. The same thing applies to a field grown tree placed on a large tile buried in the ground. The tile forces the roots to grow much more horizontally than they normally would, and when you lift the tree you simply trim off the roots that extend past the edges of the tile and start to grow downwards.Here's a good field-growing article with some photos.
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power270lb
Shohin
So I looked up Anderson flats, can u only buy in bulk? I see cases etc but 45-90 dollars. There's a guy I follow on YouTube Ben B. Seattle and he just showed a video with these types of pots allowing them to be air pruned. I'm in Jersey City so planting in the ground may be a tad difficult but there's a protected nature preserve behind my house and parks so I can could hypothetically plant there but Id have to remove it at night. If I'm using a bigger pot any particular soil you'd use? Was thinking cactus indoor soil from miracle gro since it drains so we'll and won't dry out as fast.I don't use liquid fertilizer on my bonsai, but in general the instructions for Miracle Grow liquid (which I use on some landscape areas) is to first water the area thoroughly, then water a second time with water that includes a dilute mix of fertilizer. So for a bonsai I would do the same... water first, then allow the first water to drain, then water a second time with your fertilizer water. Focus less on "amount" and rather "water like normal - until the water starts coming out of the drain holes in your pot". The main thing is to never fertilize dry soil - and avoid chemical fertilizers if possible because it is very easy to overfertilize a tree in a container with them.
Don't confuse Adenium with a Trident Maple. Adenium is a desert succulent and should be treated like a cactus, so many of the "rules" of traditional bonsai do not apply. In the case of a Trident, if you want the trunk to thicken as fast as possible you have to let sacrifice growth run on the top, and you have to allow roots to grow on the bottom. There are lots of ways you can do this - from simply sticking a plant in a field (probably fastest method) to putting in an Anderson flat and letting roots escape through the bottom (my preferred method), to overpotting in a 5 gallon bucket, etc. Realistically you aren't going to grow a tree to 3" trunk caliper in a soup container... but you can certainly get that much growth in an Anderson flat... just don't forget to move it around every six months or so or you will end up with a landscape tree that you can't move
Here's a good field-growing article with some photos.
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Checked roots on the Chinese Elm cuttings and nothing was black maybe very dark but not squishy. Still no buds this late, moving on.
My juniper was the first tree I got and it's still in it's bonsai pot. I've read pinching is the best way to prune although I've never done it and I'm still not sure exactly how to do it. Going to re-pot and let it grow. Do you grow from seed at all?
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penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
There is more listed in the archives than in heaven and earth.
power270lb
Shohin
@sorce @Bonsai Nut So took apart the Chinese Elm that wasn't blooming. Thing was a giant root ball. The thicker roots were slimy and ive never felt that before. It was the only tree that's still in it's original pot. Water never beaded on top so I never thought it was THIS BAD. Is there anyway I can salvage this? Everything lol says "wait two years to re-pot" 2nd tree I got and I'm a little bummed lol.
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Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
Well there's always a chance... Treat it like a large cutting and keep it humid and out of direct sun. It is critical that you don't let it dry out. You want the soil to remain moist but NOT wet - you just want it to stay moist enough that roots can grow and not dry out. Keep your fingers crossed and you might see new buds in a month or so...
