To argue, could you put your best foot forward to post?

[my nellie]

... ...To be honest, when you guys argue and disagree are sometimes when I can learn the most as I get 2 well informed sides to the same argument... ...

Exactly this!!!

... ...I just think and hope that people could understand that ones opinion is only as good as the last best tree they made... ...

Are you referring to designing/styling/manipulating advice, may I ask?
Or are you also including the tips about cultivation of specific species?
I am asking because I have given one or two such suggestions, based exclusively on my own experience with regarding species of plants.
However, like others, I have not an advanced pre-bonsai to show. But my suggestion came out of application with my own hands.
So, I wonder was my reaction to share my knowledge too hasty?

The quiet giant IMHO.

Absolutely agreed based on the picture of him which I have after his three workshops at our local club.
I couldn't help it to notice that he considers himself to be an artisan, not an artist

I do not consider myself to be an artist; I am an artisan.

excerpt from interview of his at http://artofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1550

 

[VAFisher]

I like it. Personally, I try to avoid offering any advice unless I'm 100% sure that it's accurate - which at this point is pretty rare. And I avoid the political discussions and that type of thing because arguing that stuff on a forum is beyond dumb. I do post up almost all of my trees though - for better or worse.

 

[Eric Group]

What if there was a bonsai forum that anyone could join, but to post you had to post a picture of your best tree, or as many as you have with each post?

So when you go telling the next guy what he has done wrong or how they should be doing it, at least the one getting pounded on has a nice portfolio of all the posters trees so he can evaluate whether they are someone to listen to, or just someone to put on ignore, which is pretty much how I do it now.

The old IBC used to have a very strict photo policy. The new IBC does not have this anymore.

Wouldn't it be refreshing if someone posted something that they think you could do to improve your tree and they had to not only provide a picture of their own work, so you could evaluate their knowledge level, but also had to provide pictures of the work they are asking you to do, how it worked on their trees. I mean if you want someone else to do the work, at least show me you know what the hell your talking about.

The question then becomes, would one pic be sufficient or would some sort of progression be required to show how they took it from a seedling to a masterpiece! Only kidding... sorta!
Point being my personal best tree- as is the case with many I am sure- was a great tree when I bought it... I did some pruning last year after I got it, cared for it for a year or so, paid a decent amount of money for it, but I did not set the style of it myself... I HAVE a few pretty nice trees I have grown from cuttings to Bonsai, but my best one is not from that group, so if someone just views it, I look like a freaking master! But most of my trees are not on that level... I don't know exactly where I am personally- better than I was when I started, not as good as I want to be I guess...
interesting idea for a forum Smoke... I think it is easier carried out in the form of a thread here. IOW- kind of like the tree thread, make an advice thread or something comparable. One criteria, you must post a pic of your best tree and then post your best piece of advice, or your best critique of someone else's tree pic they posted? Something like that...

Or-You could start a Facebook page, kind of like the Bonsai Snobs one, but have a judging criteria where they have to send the admin a pic of their tree and let the admin decide if they are allowed to join?

 

[Cadillactaste]

I almost think one needs a before and after. To prove to an extent what one may have done with a particular piece.

 

[coh]

You know that if you required photos of trees, some people would just go out and grab pics from the internet...

As for giving advice if one hasn't done a particular technique, there are certainly times when that is acceptable in my opinion. For instance, I've only been doing bonsai for a little over 5 years, so there are a lot of techniques I haven't done. And most of my trees are in relatively early stages of development, so just putting up a gallery isn't going to give anyone much faith in my advice. But, living in the Rochester area, I've been "exposed" to a lot of bonsai - through the local club and workshops/demos at Bill's, the National Exhibitions, etc. I remember there was a discussion a few years ago about lowering branches by cutting into the branch collar. I had just seen a demonstration of the process by Bill so I felt it was OK to offer what I'd learned. In those cases, though, I'll always mention that I've never actually done the technique myself.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

You know that if you required photos of trees, some people would just go out and grab pics from the internet...

You're wrong!

 

[Nybonsai12]

I post just about all my trees and all my work done to them whether it's nice or total crap. I don't offer up too much advice unless i'm confident and even then I expect most will glaze right over it. I know who to listen to and more importantly I know who not to listen to.

I don't give a shit how many posts someone has or how many likes their photos get. Click happy noobs are a plenty. I've started putting people on ignore because they offer very little content and don't have enough things to fill out their day. I should probably add a few more. It's clear who knows their stuff here. I like their work, i like their trees, I like and take their advice. They are the ones that keep me going down the right path.

 

[Chopsie]

The proof of the pie is in the tasting,,I can totally see the reasoning behind that
Surely we are all learning? I value all opinions but whether I take them all on board or not is another matter...
I was told several times my Itoigawa was unhealthy, weak etc.... I knew it wasn't.
Was I upset ,No.. I took the opinions on board and moved on
Isn't beauty in the eye of the beholder, One mans gem is another mans rubbish. So a poorly styled tree one person loves and another hates.
who is wrong, the person loves there tree.... I can see no harm in that
I keep marine aquariums that hobby is full of different opinions and methods, what can work for one might not work for another.
Is either right or wrong when they both reach success?
I think we can all work out worthy opinions without feeling the need to post images to prove our point, After all Bonsai is literally a tree in a pot lol
Have a great day

 

[Velodog2]

I would think the quality of advice might be self-evident to the recipient. One is free to agree or disagree. If we are talking about styling suggestions more points of view are better as this is art and there is no black/white right/wrong. Someone just starting may have latent talent and a good eye but no trees to show for it as yet. Or perhaps an "incorrect" i.e. unorthodox suggestion that you may not like succeeds in prying your thoughts out of the box long enough to come up with something you do like. If we are talking techniques then just like anything on these here interwebs the recipient is wise to corroborate and verify, regardless of who is offering. Let the buyer beware.

 

[petegreg]

That's not a bad idea, but... In somebody's developmental thread adding pics of different trees can make confusion.
On the second hand there's a like button...
On the third hand if someone is providing wrong advice, the others will correct him.
And finally there's an established group of people we know we can trust them.

 

[milehigh_7]

One small qualifier, the trees you post that show your level of brilliance and membership card as an ascended master must have only been worked on by you. With the exception of general pre-bonsai work such as root pruning and maybe a trunk chop or two.

If a visiting master did so much as a cut or bend, it's not your work. If you bought it styled, even roughly, it's not your work.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

That's not a bad idea, but... In somebody's developmental thread adding pics of different trees can make confusion.
On the second hand there's a like button...
On the third hand if someone is providing wrong advice, the others will correct him.
And finally there's an established group of people we know we can trust them.

And... both parties may be right, but they just don't AGREE.

One of my bonsai buddies, @Si Nguyen , has a very different taste in design from my own. That doesn't mean one of us is wrong. We look at each others' trees and see very different things. Sometimes we take each others' suggestions, sometimes we don't. But isn't that why you are asking for opinions? To get different viewpoints?

 

[petegreg]

And... both parties may be right, but they just don't AGREE.

One of my bonsai buddies, @Si Nguyen , has a very different taste in design from my own. That doesn't mean one of us is wrong. We look at each others' trees and see very different things. Sometimes we take each others' suggestions, sometimes we don't. But isn't that why you are asking for opinions? To get different viewpoints?

Yes, sure. I always appreciate and
consider different opinions, it enriches
our vision and capabilities, opens doors for new creations. Good way of learning.

 

[coh]

You're wrong!

View attachment 142838

That didn't take long! But maybe next time you should find a more believable image.

I would think the quality of advice might be self-evident to the recipient.

I think the key word is "might." It might be evident to someone who has spent a fair bit of time on the forum, but not necessarily to one who is newer. I remember some years ago there was a "talkative" member who had something to say on almost every thread. He used to give advice on over-wintering to people in the northern states, yet he had always lived in Texas. Someone newer might not pick up on that which could lead to disastrous results. Fortunately, this place is self-correcting to a large degree.

Someone just starting may have latent talent and a good eye but no trees to show for it as yet.

Definitely! I used to paint semi-professionally and was involved in many art clubs and shows. It was not uncommon for someone who didn't paint to come up with very insightful questions or suggestions. Sometimes it take someone on the outside to see something that those of us immersed in the art might miss. Because of that, I don't dismiss suggestions from anyone (except those who have earned their way onto the ignore list, of course).

 

[Anthony]

I like the idea of having 10 or so trees to show what one can do.
However, I just weed and water, so I guess I will speak less and just read.
But I do believe one should visually show some level of achievement.
Going into read only mode.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[thumblessprimate1]

You're wrong!

View attachment 142838

Oh No You Didunt !

And... both parties may be right, but they just don't AGREE.

One of my bonsai buddies, @Si Nguyen , has a very different taste in design from my own. That doesn't mean one of us is wrong. We look at each others' trees and see very different things. Sometimes we take each others' suggestions, sometimes we don't. But isn't that why you are asking for opinions? To get different viewpoints?

I miss, Si.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I miss, Si.

Si didn't go anywhere. He is just a really busy guy in real life.

 

[Cadillactaste]

So I was thinking...four words my husband hates to roll off my tongue. For it means...project for him and $$$ spent. Lol anyways...I can show I can grow and style a tree to some extent. But, if the topic is say...air layers. Never done it...so I can't really offer a hill of beans. I could mimic what I've read...but darn well should post along with it...no experience just what I've read from others. (Just my two cents for what it's worth.) I've gained valuable information here...early on...directions I may not have seen. The cascade...Vin suggested that as a front long ago. It reminds me of a cobra snake to be honest. That small root coming out from the mix...it's tongue. But...looking past the tongue...I seen his direction as solid one...offering the most of the trunk.

 

[abqjoe]

One small qualifier, the trees you post that show your level of brilliance and membership card as an ascended master must have only been worked on by you. With the exception of general pre-bonsai work such as root pruning and maybe a trunk chop or two.

If a visiting master did so much as a cut or bend, it's not your work. If you bought it styled, even roughly, it's not your work.

What if you bought a tree that was styled by a master at one time but had been severely neglected for several years?

 

[Cadillactaste]

What if you bought a tree that was styled by a master at one time but had been severely neglected for several years?

You say that in correlation with the below quoted statement...

If a visiting master did so much as a cut or bend, it's not your work. If you bought it styled, even roughly, it's not your work.

"IF" one likes to tout the pedigree of said tree...it hardly qualifies for what @milehigh_7 was stating. Of it being basically totally your work. Don't you think!?! Food for thought to chew over.