The Ultimate UNHINGED Indoor Growing/Overwintering Attempt

My indoor plant room (for tropicals in the winter) usually smells a little funny. Especially after fertilizing with fish emulsion lol. I wouldn’t want to live in there!
 
Just to confirm about the mold. One of my good friends rented his house to someone who didn’t heat it… don’t know how the renter did it. The upshot was the tenant left him with a big mold clean up… to the tune of $5K which he had to eat as insurance would cover it.

Ugh
DSD sends
 
Cold and Dark with humidity - bad mix...

All building envelope systems are designed to prevent exterior air temperatures and humidity from moving inside. When you introduce humidity (through watering plants, unexhausted steam and showering, leaks, etc) inside, it cant escape either. So as humidity builds up in between walls, it will condensate on cold surfaces (duct, pipes, conduit, mc wires, nailer plates) and then mold will grow.

Experts have spoken.
 
Its a fools errand to keep anything but tropicals indoors. I have a few hundred plants inside and they are tropical. Almost all of them go outside during the warmer seasons. Even then there are problem plants.
I will start seeds and cuttings of non tropicals inside, but they go out as soon as possible. Even then, I find myself performing these actions more and more outside than in. I would much rather work with nature than against it.
I am reluctant to comment often on posts like this because there is very little positive to be said.
I do wish you luck, if such a thing exists. More often it is a matter of finding the way.
 
There isn't really a super good solution for that besides having a grow tent with reflective sides
The solution for that particular problem is actually different from what you would think - it is to raise the lights and increase the intensity. Coral reef aquarists deal with a similar issue - where, if they place their lights close to the water surface, they bathe their shallow water corals in intense light, but the drop-off in lighting intensity toward the bottom of the tank is too great to keep anything but deep water corals lower down. The solution is to raise the lights, and increase the intensity, so that the range of acceptable light intensity covers a greater volume.
 
A little background to this experiment. I’m not new to houseplants/ growing difficult species indoors with mixed success in past, however I’ve decided to really try to put in some effort and really try to build a relatively low cost, yet effective system to grow trees indoors for those of us stuck renting without usable yard space. Note: the size of your living space/grow room will affect feasibility, since ive only got about 600sq ft and only about half of that is the living room “or plant/tree room”, making it relatively easy to manipulate humidity and temperature conditions in a semi contained area. I also have no forced air heat to contend with (is a humidity problem in winter).

All the trees seen here (with the example of the red maple forest in bonsai pot, collected about a month ago) were purchased in late May and arrived 1st week of June so between 60-80 days. All indoors the entire time, with some species like the large Pitch Pine especially, and also Bald Cypress and the Maples, if the light was insufficient I would think they would have shown signs of stress or lack of vigor by now, yet all have exceeded my expectations in growth rate and appearance. The Holly is another exception which was rescued from near the dumpster from landscapers who yanked it out, it seemed pretty green at first but may have had too much root damage to save. Ive just plopped it in sphagnum moss hoping peter chan’s energy can revive it. Possible lost cause there.

I have been running a series of full spectrum LEDs and also “pink light” which seemed to make one of my tridents quite happy so ive added it to the entire rack. Importantly, I’ve got a series of 400nm LED UV and 365nm Fluorescent UV bulbs broadly covering the rack which are connected to a smart plug to come on exactly at sunrise and off at exactly sunset. With the intention to supply a bit of supplemental longwave UV-A (beneficial for growth in tandem with full spectrum and when NOT excessively powerful).
Source:
All of these lights (besides fluoro UV) are LED, combined, they draw a couple hundred watts while running (but keep in mind thats total with about the same amount of lights in other room with my tropicals and the “Bootleg Propagator-nator V1.2”.

I also keep airflow over my plants and trees constantly, via recirc blower from the wall unit. Further running an oscillating fan on high to give the trees a bit of simulated wind (the bend in branches is considerable, not a weak fan several feet away) and to keep air flowing to soil regularly. I have a humidifier that was about $30 that does a great job of keeping this wall of trees and plants locally more humid than the rest of the apt.

Everyone says trees NEED to grow outside, and its excessively hard indoors, I mostly agree. But all plants are supposed to grow outside and also not being confined to a tiny pot and having roots cut back and 90% of foliage removed too… I am not convinced that my Indoor Pitch pine allowed more room to grow in a bigger pot is less healthy than one with about 12 needles left on the tree in total jammed into a 4” pot and twisted drastically in all kinds of shapes, but grown outside.

While I understand these trees arent “bonsai” yet, the material was purchased from nurserys as “pre bonsai stock” or tubelings (j virginiana and c thyoides were tubelings) or in a few cases, collected. With the intention however to shape them into bonsai come dormancy period for the deciduous trees. But in all likelihood i may let them grow another year unrestricted to develop thicker trunk and robust roots first.

How do I plan to fool them into dormancy? Well the two large windows right in front of the rack will be opened, (i keep windows open all year except in the peak of summer, to promote fresh airflow and I exhaust it out of the other room causing a sort of draft effect) allowing cooler air to pool around the windows and tree rack. While the nearly ceiling mounted powerful full spectrum grow lights promote airflow over the rack as the air directly near the ceiling is heated. With the way the rack was built I can also throw some kind of tarp or plastic wrapping along the side of rack facing interior of room to sort of create a “cold greenhouse” effect with the windows open.

If this fails and I am unable to achieve dormancy and end up with a bunch of ailing trees come winter, all y’all in the local area that told me so are welcome to take them, as im not trying to be a tree-mengele and my goal is to have at least most stems (in multiple stem groups) to survive and even thrive. if any of these are interesting you for your collection or if you would want to use them as landscaping pieces in the yard im willing to part ways to give them a more spacious home if I start killing them.

Anybody else in a situation where they are or previously attempted to grow and overwinter indoors and have experience to share, or tips on what works and doesn’t work would be appreciated. I made the mistake of not measuring the heights and crown spread of the trees when i received them, but starting this week i plan to measure weekly, as im genuinely curious what the growth rates are, the red maples and pine and metasequoia/ bald cypress have suprised me so far with their vigorousness thus far given the notoriously high light reqs. Esp for pitch pine. I want to take the data so if this is successful it may be of some scientific use?

I always choose sparse or perhaps not the highest quality data and analysis over “conventional wisdom” anyday, obviously GOOD and highly accurate data is most valuable but something’s better than nothing. Conventional wisdom told me that attempting to root a 40” tall and 40-50ish” crown spread full stalk of a corn plant D. Fragrans with the entire crown of leaves left on the stalk (except lower foot or so of stalk for clearance from container) is a really stupid idea and will dry out and die. Or will take a year to root. Well this accidentially became an experiment when the other cutting i took same day which was from my compacta dracaena (small var corn plant, much smaller, dark green lanceolate leaves) where I only took about 4” of the growing shoot and left on about 5 leaves and had both in separate rooms at the time. I was shocked that when I noticed buds breaking from the parent big corn plant, i checked the small one in other rooms and the buds were pushing out at the exact same time. More strangely though, at the same time i noticed the buds (about 2 weeks ago now, about 6weeks from cuttings date) I noticed new growth on the small growth shoot from the smaller plant, and sure enough its at least partially or mostly rooted. Went to check on the giant crown of giant leaves, ridiculous “cutting” i attempted to root. And I gave it a light tug and immediately noticed it wasnt spinning around like a hotdog on the counter of the 7/11 anymore when i touched it. No way, sure enough, it rooted. Its not pushing new growth yet, but its at least mostly rooted with new root buds (or sprouts) breaking from the soil line.

Conventional wisdom said leaving full leaves, let alone the entire crown of very large leaves on a plant with gigantic leaves, is a hopeless endeavor or it’ll take a year of misting to root vs trying a much smaller piece or cutting leaves in halves or more to limit transpiration. It shouldnt have worked, and it shouldnt have rooted in the same time as a much smaller growth shoot. But it did. I have photographic proof of this if interested but thats another story.

All advice or critique on the setup or approach, or experiences with your own attempts, no matter how successful or not are appreciated! But please.. yes, I know “trees belong outside” but again I’d say “well so do all plants, really”. Thanks and I appreciate input! May go back and revise later typing in haste on mobile right now, apologies if formatting is a mess.
I've had good success with winters indoors in a fridge with japanese maples and junipers. We'll you start with 1 hour in the fridge for one month then increase the number of hours till u reach month 3 and start giving the whole night in the fridge. For deciduous after a month full time in the fridge and conifers only in the nighttime. All my trees have survived and are thriving happily. They're outside now tho, i live in a tropical climate.
 
I've had good success with winters indoors in a fridge with japanese maples and junipers. We'll you start with 1 hour in the fridge for one month then increase the number of hours till u reach month 3 and start giving the whole night in the fridge. For deciduous after a month full time in the fridge and conifers only in the nighttime. All my trees have survived and are thriving happily. They're outside now tho, i live in a tropical climate.
See my response in your maple post. Temperature plays only one role in dormancy. Light and lack of it is temperatures partner. Temperate climate trees begin the dormancy process at the summer solstice in June. That’s when day length begins to shorten. Without that gradual draw down of sunlight dormancy is an iffy thing.

I’d be interested in hearing how long you’ve been using the refrigerator. The trees you’ve posted photos of aren’t all that old and thriving is a relative term. Fwiw. I can’t grow ficus to their potential here in Virginia for the opposite reasons
 
Note: I just went in and cleared out some off-topic posts. If your post disappeared, that's what happened to it.
From Where? Do you have a views count where you can delete posts that don't get viewed for a long time or don't bring traffic to the site?
 
See my response in your maple post. Temperature plays only one role in dormancy. Light and lack of it is temperatures partner. Temperate climate trees begin the dormancy process at the summer solstice in June. That’s when day length begins to shorten. Without that gradual draw down of sunlight dormancy is an iffy thing.

I’d be interested in hearing how long you’ve been using the refrigerator. The trees you’ve posted photos of aren’t all that old and thriving is a relative term. Fwiw. I can’t grow ficus to their potential here in Virginia for the opposite reasons
I am literally replicating that reduction in sunlight and daylength. I bring them in one hour before sunset so the daylength is less. Then I put them outside after its dark.
 
I am literally replicating that reduction in sunlight and daylength. I bring them in one hour before sunset so the daylength is less. Then I put them outside after its dark.
Replicating the variables involved with a six-month-long seasonal shift is mostly beyond just putting the trees in a refrigerator and guessing about daylength.
 
I have wintered most of my conifers in and old part of our basement under a grow light on a timer for several winters and they seem to do fine. The temperature in that space ranges between 40 and 50 F. They are in there from mid Nov. to March. One problem I had with a Taxus was it flowered and started new growth in the basement and when I took it outside in the spring, it was hit by a hard freeze and the new growth was killed. trees.jpeg
 
I had a Chinese Elm and Fukien Tea Tree growing indoors since there wasn't enough outdoor space in my old place (and both trees are marketed as indoor trees, unlike maple and bald cypress... I don't know much about pitch pine lol). Looking at info online, I had a similar indignance about what I would see online regarding indoor bonsai viability. Now having moved them outdoors in my new place (I live in SoCal so the FTT is more than happy), I was almost disappointed with how right most of what I read was when it came to the vigor, growth rate, and "health" (in abstract terms) of the plants. My CE dropped its leaves when I first set it up indoors and didn't bud birst for like 1.5 months; even after it did the growth was worryingly slow. Now, managing the amount of shoots it sends out is more of a chore than a hobby (I say with love). That being said, I purchased both trees in April of this year and moved to my new place in July, so I never had to deal with the overwintering ordeal. Regardless, reading your post (and recognizing a similar indignance), I want to root you on but (at risk of doing a complete Dunning-Kruger affect) here is some advice:

1. PPFD: erase from your mind any concern about nm/color/temp of light -- PPFD is now your god. We're growing trees here, which evolved to survive in low-light conditions only as juviniles and which (generally) attept to reach the top of the canopy. The TL;DR is PAR is a measure of light radiation that is actually useful for photosynthesis and PPFD is a measure of that light radaition per square meter. For the trees I grew, the tip of the canopy being 600 μmol/m²s for 12 hours kept 'em alive just fine. For reference, a moderately sunny day can be thought to have a mean PPFD of 1,500 - 2,000 μmol/m²s during the hours of 10AM and 4PM... I still use the dinky Photone app to measure PPFD, but if you're serious about making an indoor forest you may want to get an actual PAR meter. You may not need to change your setup whatsoever; maybe your current lights/positioning already gets ideal PPFD output (you can look up how to calculate DLI if they are on the weaker side to find out how long the lights should be on for to make up for it).

2. Find a way to Winter: though my background isn't specifically plant biology, I am a biologist and I can tell you that biological systems need specific evolved zeitgebers (and not just light). I'm not too sure if this analogy directly applies to bonsai, but for some of the nepenthes species I grow I know for a fact that a daily temperature fluctuation is required for them to not get fussy and start killing off pitchers; I have literally programmed my AC to drop 10 degrees at night every night so that (sometimes) its colder indoors compared to outsid even. Yes, a seasonal drop in temp is 'required' for bonsai, but that alone may not be enough to trigger the cellular and systemic biological proceses that keep a tree alive for more than a couple years. I would highly advise you find a way to have a second setup area that is damn near exposed to the elements (unheated garage is the general suggestion but I'm sure you get the picture). In terms of your trees, I lived in New Orleans for a time and there are plenty of bald cypress in the ground and in pots there. I can attest to the fact that Winter nights in NOLA feel really damn cold given the humidity and the wind -- yeah a bald cypress can survive 9b zones but given all the other environmental factors, that number alone can be misleading. There are seasonal changes to the circadian and infrafian cycles of plants that we may not have well elucidated yet, hence why many go based on "conventional wisdom." Even with a humidifier I'm not sure how you're going to acheive these conditions in your living room without causing damage to your home or your health. I'm not sure what the solution is given your space's limitations, but I will advise your start considering having maybe a second setup in another locaiton for some of your trees... just in case.

3. Think Long-term: this kinda builds on the last point insofar as to say just because a tree can survive w/o all of these biological signals for a year doesn't mean that will work forever. From what I could gather from forums and botany research papers, your current concern shouldn't be "how can I get my trees survive the Winter" it should be "how can I get my trees to survive for more than 2-3 Winters like this." In my mind, an indoor setup for not-fully-tropical bonsai trees is similar to geriatric medicine -- yeah modern medicine can make you live +20 years longer than in decades past but its +15 years of slowly dying. My anecdotal experience with my CE and FTT really nailed that into my head. From what I can tell, especially with your maple, even if it comes back next spring thats no guarentee you can rinse-n-repeat the process. Those types of deciduos trees made a Faustian bargain with evolution for a volitile cycle of absolutely cranking out carbs during the growing season followed by Winter periods where cellular respiration is kept up just enough not to die, then reving up the fryers to do it all again in Spring. Indoors, your maple may have enough energy to get it through once cycle (assuming you are able to follow advice #2 enough to where the tree doesn't die from complete lack of dormancy), but that's no guarentee is can do it again. I've seen it talked about w/ CE that repeatedly not going dormant "enough" will kill a CE over a handful of years. Similarly, just because the maple has enough sugars accumulated form/leading into this season is no guarentee that, with your current setup and the plant's photosynthetic output, it can do it all over again. Food for thought.

This repsonse is already too long and (I will admit) I may be relying on my background to justify my conjecture. Still, I think that these are the things that will likely make or break your experiment.
Dude, I had to stop and look up D-K effect, and some of your other terms. But no worries. It was a good Sunday morning rattle for my brain. :)
 
I have wintered most of my conifers in and old part of our basement under a grow light on a timer for several winters and they seem to do fine. The temperature in that space ranges between 40 and 50 F. They are in there from mid Nov. to March. One problem I had with a Taxus was it flowered and started new growth in the basement and when I took it outside in the spring, it was hit by a hard freeze and the new growth was killed. View attachment 574378
So why not in a tropical place where I can replicate 40 to 50F?
I mean I always be gradual in changing temps and daylength
 
So why not in a tropical place where I can replicate 40 to 50F?
I mean I always be gradual in changing temps and daylength
There have been a few people in the past that asked the same. Either they never went ahead and tried what you're proposing or it fail because they disappeared from here.

But please do give this a try and report back. This will be very helpful for everybody. Thanks
 
There have been a few people in the past that asked the same. Either they never went ahead and tried what you're proposing or it fail because they disappeared from here.

But please do give this a try and report back. This will be very helpful for everybody. Thanks
Sure! I'm not one of them who backs off and never appears again. If it does fail, I'll focus on tropical species!!! I'm going to start the report from January till March and after I'm back from the US I'll take the trees out of the fridge. I hope that one will be successful as I've made a large batch of cuttings to experiment on.
 
I have wintered most of my conifers in and old part of our basement under a grow light on a timer for several winters and they seem to do fine. The temperature in that space ranges between 40 and 50 F. They are in there from mid Nov. to March. One problem I had with a Taxus was it flowered and started new growth in the basement and when I took it outside in the spring, it was hit by a hard freeze and the new growth was killed. View attachment 574378


Looks like all of those are junipers which one could argue dont need as cold a dormancy (ie dont need to go below 40) as some species of pines used for bonsai based on where they grow naturally in the environment.
 
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