The Ultimate “Put Up or Shut Up” Challenge

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going to bed

Will...flames aside...why don't you rethink this and make this something that really does speak to the ability and talent of the participants and is above the potential monkey business.

Honestly, it was really not a half bad idea to make this a benefit for Bill. Put some of the pent up frustratios around here to work for a good cause. I give you credit. I think it is a prime example of one of your strengths... and that is taking the ideas and/or concepts of others to the next level and claiming it for your own.

I am hitting the sack...I'll check back in the morning. I hope you reconsider. I really would love the opportunity to compare talent with you and any of the others around here that are willing to close their mouths and put there hands to work.

John
 
Man, I know better, but.....

The Ultimate “Put Up or Shut Up” Challenge

Over the scant five years I have been involved in bonsai, I have posted many of my efforts as well as contributed to the community in many ways, including writing many articles for the major bonsai magazines, creating on-line magazines, and creating contests that outshine any that came before.
All of which is pretty impressive Will. While most of your articles are opinion pieces (Talent, Defining bonsai, Ownership in bonsai, and myth) there are a few that are good articles. Your websites also have a place in bonsai, they are unique and pretty.


Yet, a few individuals ignore all this and periodically post innuendos, suggestions, and other such backhanded comments suggesting that, since I do all these other things, I can not or do not actually ”do bonsai.”

Here is where you are mistaken a bit. Nobody ignores that you write these things. It is the way in which you do it. Because a university said foliar feeding doesn't work doesn't make it gospel. There are thousands of farmers (KK) who have been using it and seeing the results for many many decades. Experience is worth something. Yet you don't give anyone a single shred of respect for the decades of proven results. "Nope, UofW said it doesn't work so that's it." Life isn't always black and white. I for one know it works, have covered root balls and foliar fed in order to monitor water to the roots and trees dig it. There is more to it, but in a nutshell, for junipers and pines it works for me.

With the way you hold your chest up about your resume and articles everyone expects that you should be leaps and bounds ahead with your bonsai. See anyone can write an article on literati, or try to compare bonsai to sculpture (which is funny) but that same person ought to be able to post some very good trees to be credible. And when they can't do that that is when the parrot word gets thrown around.....You think all that Walter has done in articles written, forums, fighting etc.. about naturalistic bonsai would be taken seriously if he didn't have trees to back it up? He threw down some stunning examples of naturalistic bonsai, people listened because his trees spoke. Same thing here.... put up.



Never mind the fact that I always have posted bonsai on many forums, going as far back as posting a ficus to Walter Pall’s “Ask the Master” section at BT, when it existed, to a recent series of posts at Bsite asking the members if their vision matched my vision for a few of my own bonsai.

Again with your resume Will, your trees should be WAY further along or you should start with much better material. This is why you always get the put up or shut up. You only see black and white, you only see what you want to see and you talk down to anyone who doesn't buy into it.



It was not quite a year ago that I once again answered the same baseless remarks by posting a progression of a semi-cascade ficus and a mugo pine right here on this forum. Never the less, these comments still surface whenever a few people can not debate a subject and attempt to “win” by implying that since I do not actually do bonsai, the information I put forth is not correct. This is commonly called “Attacking the person” and actually proves nothing...I don’t have to be a drunk to tell someone that drinking and driving is dangerous.

Before I get to the challenge, let’s look at some of the most recent comments of this nature to see where they come from and to prove I am not just knocking over straw men here.

People can debate a subject just fine. It is how you handle it that makes everyone nuts and then they tell you to just put up or shut, both of which you refuse to do. You don't take into account or respect the experience of anyone, if you read it from somewhere then that is it, nothing else is right.

Al started this thread http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1605 last week to do basically what you are trying to do here, minus the fundraiser. Why didn't you add to this thread? Many jumped on it and posted trees. That is all that needs to be done. Not some big overblown contest to make you look good.



Now the challenge......

I challenge the people quoted above, as well as any others who wish to jump in, to compete head to head with me designing a bonsai. This is your chance to prove that I can’t actually do bonsai and to finally shut me up. However, it is also my chance to shut you up forever. ;)

Wrong..... Your trees you have posted before actually speak for themselves, good or bad, that is up to who ever sees them. You will never shut up Will, everyone knows this :) Until you start posting trees that are better than the people you named they will never shut up and if you won this silly contest they still would have better trees.

Here are the conditions and rules.

All participants will purchase a piece of bonsai material blindly. Meaning that we will respectfully ask Brent, who has material and is well known for his impartiality, fairness, and level-headiness, to select material for us. This material will all be the same species, be of the same overall quality, and offer the same options. The participants will not know what species, size, or quality of material they are receiving until it arrives at their doorstep. The only advantage they will have is their own ability and talent.

Participants will pay for the material they will be sent.

Once we receive the material, we will post four pictures, one of each side, right here at Bnut.

Here is where it gets funny..... in order to get material that will really show ones skills you will need to spend a few hundred bucks. I have seen what Brent gets for trees, and you need to start in the $200+ (probably higher) range in order to get material that will look nearly complete at the end of the contest. Sorry dude, but I am not going to do that. I have over a 100 very high quality trees in my yard that have yet to ever be worked on.....that is where I will devote my time. In order to really show ones skills you have to start with killer material...something that will take 5 yrs or 10 yrs to look like a bonsai won't cut it. You have to spend a chunk of change.


We will have 1 month to style the material, we will not be re-potting, and at that time, we will post four pictures, one of each side, right here at Bnut again.

All work must be the participants own, no help, advice, suggestions, or direction can be given by anyone, this is about what we can do ourselfs.

1 month???? Why so long, do you plan to make love to it?? It should be a 3 day thing, 5 max. Who needs a month to work on a tree. You should be able to see the tree in an hour and have it done in one setting, even if it takes 10 hrs. Same gripe I have about the contests on forums, the time frame is lame. I will bet you that everyone who knows what they are doing hammers the tree out in one setting, I know I did with the KoB. How could you not? A month, wow..... Why not repot too???? It can be done and should be an option left up to the artist.


At that time all entries will be auctioned off here at Bnut, every entry will be in this auction because.....the bonsai receiving the highest winning bid, which is paid, will be determined the winner. Any winning tree that is not paid for will be disqualified.

Lastly, all proceeds will go to the William Valavanis benefit to help him rebuild.
This eliminates having to find impartial judges and the foolish popularity vote.

I am sure Bill has home owners insurance and Business insurance that will do the rebuilding for him. I mean no personal disrespect to the man, I have the utmost respect for him. He could probably benfit from friends helping him do the heavy lifting, cleaning the property and doing tasks to free him up to deal with everything. This auction isn't going to do much for him. It does way more for you than him.

Your auction thing can only be fair if it is anonymous. Any other way and it is biased. If I did this and someone really wanted my tree that can bid it up even if it isn't the best tree....and with your fan base I see this actually hurting you. What needs to happen is pcitures get sent to Brent, Brent posts them on the forum and after bidding the artist gets revealed. Anything other than this is pointless.
I have a millionaire buddy, think I could get him to drop some coin so I won. Sure I could. This just proves this concept is flawed.



I can hear them already, so don’t waste your time giving us excuses that won’t cut it. Here’s your chance to prove your own words or to run, lest you be exposed. Don’t waste our time telling us about the labor pains, show us the baby!

This should be the last “put up or shut up” thread we will ever see from these people because it is all here, all laid out, all ready for them to, well....put up or shut up. ;) We have all put up in the past....that hasn't been the issue here.

So do you have the courage to put you money where your mouth is, to put your words up to the test? I’m talking to you, Chris Johnston, Al Keppler, Irene_b, King Kong, TheSteve, JasonG, cquinn, mojosan, buddamonk, others? Do you have what you claim I need?

Will

I have nothing to prove to you, infact you have everything to prove to everyone here. You are the one always getting called out, put up or shut up. Al, Buddmonk, Myself, JohnG, KK, etc have always posted trees, very good tree at that. We have no reason to put up or shut up. Nobody ever calls any of us out because we don't claim to be an authority on all things bonsai, instead we post trees and they speak. Some may claim certain things but when they/we do it is backed up with a killer tree to prove it.


So, what you have done here is set everyone but yourself up to fail. If any of us decline to accept then we are the jerks who refused to help out Bill.....and by running this and calling us out on several forums you assure that we are the bad guys and you are the hero trying to raise money for a brother during a tough time. You can add it to your resume, and I promise you in a month or 2 years from now I will see this added to it on one of the forums. Watch. This contest is going to be doomed from the start.

There is a better way to run it, I know John layed some ideas out there...as have I.

I will be shocked if any of the people you named actually come out to play with you Will. And when they don't it has nothing to do with not wanting to help out Bill. Almost everyone you named has already put up, several times. It is you that needs to put up, not us. For me, I will start posting more trees on the forums with much more detail on my blog. Who knows, I might even save a tree for the kno'b contest....

As the title of my post says..... Man, I know better, but.....nothing good can come from this:D:D

Jason
 
hey will
I've only been involved in bonsai for about 8 months. Given that amount of time I've done some trade w/ Brent and gosh I don't know what your budget is, but for the rest of us, I find that while Brent provides quality merchandise he does not sell stock the is usually ready for initial styling. I believe that is why he has a speciemen tree page separate from his PRE-bonsia pages. Gee will, get the f or real or get out. This should be a site for reducing stess in ALL the posters' life; not for the sound of your *hole blowing a really stupid challenge
 
I detect a bit of a "Trojan Horse" here. Are you trying to help a friend in need or are you trying to dispel the notion you have no bonsai skills? A strange concoction but it is your creation. So, the only thing Brent is going to send me is a straight jacket anyways, lol's, but I would be happy to take one of my plants, say a 10 " pot shimp, wire it and try to help the cause that way.

This will not work? Ok, can I make a recommendation? The next time you experience the desire to recruit, run your ideas by the forum here so we can help you formulate a plan that can help you achieve your goal. If there is anything I can do to help, in all respect, please let me know so I can show you my backsides.
 
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I am sure Bill has home owners insurance and Business insurance that will do the rebuilding for him. I mean no personal disrespect to the man, I have the utmost respect for him. He could probably benfit from friends helping him do the heavy lifting, cleaning the property and doing tasks to free him up to deal with everything. This auction isn't going to do much for him. It does way more for you than him.
Jason


What about the proceeds going to the Aus fire victims, 1800 homes gone, 181 dead, I know of a few animal shelters there that need all the support possible. Our government is helping the human victims, just not animal victims.
 
more typical bovine feces from the mouth of a loser:(

I completely agree Jason.

I got excited for just a second but I should have known better...(shame on me)

Its plain to see this is just more typical WH...all smoke and mirrors (no offense Al:))
...once again NO ABILITY or TALENT any where to be seen from this bozo!!!

Ulitmate Challenge...my butt

Jason is exactly correct when it comes to why people keep asking you to see your trees...everything we have seen is crap and we just can't believe that someone with your "resume" and ego could really not have the first tree to back up your mouth...tisk, tisk

Take your sticks in a pot...
your overblown ego...
your stolen ideas...
your ribbons from your local show...
your 77 published articles...
your whipping boy Vance...
your no talent or ability self...









and...



SHUT UP and GO AWAY!
 
What about the proceeds going to the Aus fire victims, 1800 homes gone, 181 dead, I know of a few animal shelters there that need all the support possible. Our government is helping the human victims, just not animal victims.

Asus101... I would be more than glad to make a contribution. The results of those fires are horrific. Please let me know how and where I can send my contribution to help the animal shelters and it will be in the mail today!

Thanks,
John
 
THere are enough excuses, whining, and crying here that you'd think it was a weight watchers convention.

Big text, insults, and the usual attacks don't make you right, it just proves my point once again. Some people will do anything to start a fight.

The challenge has been laid out, so far there is not a single taker, where are all the big mouths, loudmauths, and screamers? They certainly are not putting up, all we are hearing is a whole lot of excuses.

I don't want to hear about the labor pains, just show me the baby.



Remember, this is for a good cause......no need to have a flame war over it.


Will
 
THere are enough excuses, whining, and crying here that you'd think it was a weight watchers convention.

Big text, insults, and the usual attacks don't make you right, it just proves my point once again. Some people will do anything to start a fight.

The challenge has been laid out, so far there is not a single taker, where are all the big mouths, loudmauths, and screamers? They certainly are not putting up, all we are hearing is a whole lot of excuses.

I don't want to hear about the labor pains, just show me the baby.



Remember, this is for a good cause......no need to have a flame war over it.


Will

Will this is where the issue lies, and why there is so many with so many issues.

Above is a great example.
Everything underlined, is basically text saying "Fight me", and people will respond back in the very same manner. It will get you no where here.

The text in bold is all that needed to be said.

You can post civilly on your forums, why cant you follow through here? Why must every post you make have the undertone of an arsehole here?
 
Wow Will!

This is possibly the most repugnant thing I've seen since they caught the guys who were looting the homes of our local fire refugees. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that you are using the misfortune of another to further your own cause.

Fly.
 
Will...flames aside...why don't you rethink this and make this something that really does speak to the ability and talent of the participants and is above the potential monkey business.

Honestly, it was really not a half bad idea to make this a benefit for Bill. Put some of the pent up frustratios around here to work for a good cause. I give you credit. I think it is a prime example of one of your strengths... and that is taking the ideas and/or concepts of others to the next level and claiming it for your own.

I am hitting the sack...I'll check back in the morning. I hope you reconsider. I really would love the opportunity to compare talent with you and any of the others around here that are willing to close their mouths and put there hands to work.

John

Thanks for the on topic, non-insulting post John. Well all except "taking the ideas and/or concepts of others to the next level and claiming it for your own" could you point out just one example where I did this, please? Just one?


My logic for the bids is that

a) there are contests such as on AoB and KoB that are judged by at least three professionals and the scores averaged out to assure total transparency and fairness, we could enter these (I have) at any time, but as said, most the people listed in my challenge never do. And with over 200 entries, the personal one on one challenge is diluted.

b) the main reason is to raise money for a good cause, with bidding for score.....there is a modivation to bid, after a judged result, there is little motivation to bid, greatly reducing the usefulness of this challenge. As I said before, I have nothing to prove, I am secure in my own talents and abilities. People tend to debate me instead of the articles, the truth is that my bonsai, good or bad, really have nothing at all to do with the content of my articles.

Without the bidding, we just have another styling contest and we may as well meet at the best of them, the KoB Progressive Styling Contest.

Perhaps we can compromise and split the scores, half from the bids and half from a judge, but that would depend on if there are going to be other takers, or just excuse makers.
 
Wow Will!

This is possibly the most repugnant thing I've seen since they caught the guys who were looting the homes of our local fire refugees. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that you are using the misfortune of another to further your own cause.

Fly.


Yeah, by raising money....


I'm so bad.....
 
I am not do anything until we here from Vance Wood, my guiding light. He always has positive ideas for competitions like this.
 
It is of no surprise that there are some who will try to disrupt even a good cause with insults and attempts to incite. The extreme lack of moderation on this site has caused many a good discussion to disintegrate into flames,

Usually, I'll stand toe to toe and slug it out with the same old few who have nothing better to do than start such fights, but not on this topic, sorry.

The challenge has been posted at http://knowledgeofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=3103&p=14852#p14852 where it will stand. All links have been redirected to it and emails about the challenge will contain that link as well.


So dose this thread with gasoline and watch the flames burn it down, post your large fonts and hurl your insultsm the challenge still publicly stands and is of yet, unanswered by any of those named.


http://knowledgeofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=3103&p=14852#p14852



Will
 
Usually, I'll stand toe to toe and slug it out with the same old few who have nothing better to do than start such fights, but not on this topic, sorry.
Now, that the crap is over and he has taken his ball and gone home lets get down to some real business folks...

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1621
 
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I will parrot you one more time Will... Put up or Shut Up... Looks like no one wants to play at your house either:(...imagine that;)


Still tossing mud, John?

Here's the deal, I put up a challenge, you ain't brave enough to take it. You want me to put up, I have offered to, the question is when are you going to stop whining and making excuses and put up yourself?

So, once agin...put up or shut up.

Oh yeah, Happy Valentine's Day, Sweetheart. ;)
 
And I get a rap for stirring up all that trouble on the interwebs.

In the interest of accuracy, I suggest your reread the quote you attribute to me in context and check what I was talking about.

In the interest of clarity, let's look at possible results:
I. Everyone ignores the "challenge" and Will claims a win because we are all scared of his prowess.
B. Folks point out the flaws in the premise, with documented results: Will is a victim of attack and we are all scared of his prowess.
3. Someone decides to take him up on the challenge, competing in some arcane world in which he has made all the rules. This can show two results:
a. The person wins
2. The person loses

If they lose (who could know how the bidding might be amped up just for bragging rights?), or if they win, Will still wins with something else to put on his lengthy and oft-broadcast "resume."

This is nothing more than a clever attempt at putting others who have often shown a knowledge of actual bonsai work in a no-win situation. Unfortunately, it's too clever by half. We can all see right through it.

Chris
 
Finally, someone I called out by name responds....

Chris, here is a quote from the first post I made in this challenge...

"I can hear them already, so don’t waste your time giving us excuses that won’t cut it. Here’s your chance to prove your own words or to run, lest you be exposed. Don’t waste our time telling us about the labor pains, show us the baby!"



Will
 
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