The Hemlock (Tsuga) Discussion THREAD.

[ABCarve]

What do you all use for a pruning regime on your developed Mt. hemlock.

 

[River's Edge]

Nice work Frank, I also appreciate the sweeping (weeping) styling, which IMHO portrays the natural habitat of this species. Next, a new pot?

No new pot for this one, sold the tree!

 

[River's Edge]

What do you all use for a pruning regime on your developed Mt. hemlock.

I keep major pruning and heavy wiring till late fall, early winter. Trimming and fine wiring occurs after the spring flush has extended and hardened off! I check the tree carefully for wire biting in a couple of times during the growing season and remove sections when it starts to bite in. The tree will then rest till late fall, early winter before wire will be reapplied if required in certain areas. The pruning method for pad development dictates that wire be applied during both winter pruning sessions and growing season thinning/trimming to guide structure!
Because it is still in development additional growth is left after the thinning/ trimming approximately beginning of June.

As the pads mature it is possible to thin out unnecessary branches to lighten the structure and " age" the appearance while keeping the interior healthy.

If the tree is further along in refinement then the trimming occurs over several separate sessions in the growing season to maintain a sharper image.
Not sure if that is the information you are looking for, but that is how I would describe the routine.

 

[ABCarve]

I keep major pruning and heavy wiring till late fall, early winter. Trimming and fine wiring occurs after the spring flush has extended and hardened off! I check the tree carefully for wire biting in a couple of times during the growing season and remove sections when it starts to bite in. The tree will then rest till late fall, early winter before wire will be reapplied if required in certain areas. The pruning method for pad development dictates that wire be applied during both winter pruning sessions and growing season thinning/trimming to guide structure!
Because it is still in development additional growth is left after the thinning/ trimming approximately beginning of June.

As the pads mature it is possible to thin out unnecessary branches to lighten the structure and " age" the appearance while keeping the interior healthy.

If the tree is further along in refinement then the trimming occurs over several separate sessions in the growing season to maintain a sharper image.
Not sure if that is the information you are looking for, but that is how I would describe the routine.

Thanks, I may give this a try. I prune at the summer solstice just before it’s hardened off. They continue to grow and grow as long as it’s trimmed. They are still extending. They are the most labor intensive trees I own. Waiting till it’s hardened off may stop it’s continued flushes.

 

[River's Edge]

Thanks, I may give this a try. I prune at the summer solstice just before it’s hardened off. They continue to grow and grow as long as it’s trimmed. They are still extending. They are the most labor intensive trees I own. Waiting till it’s hardened off may stop it’s continued flushes.

Their strong growth pattern is a definite plus for development and refinement. I find tsukumho cypress even more constant work to maintain than Mt. Hemlock. However as I noted in my response I do not attempt to keep a manicured look throughout the entire growing season. Prefer to allow extra strength to build within the tree for longer periods of time during development. I tend to think continuous trimming can weaken the tree over time and reduce the desired response from pruning. I save that approach for final refinement and maintaining image.

 

[ABCarve]

Their strong growth pattern is a definite plus for development and refinement. I find tsukumho cypress even more constant work to maintain than Mt. Hemlock. However as I noted in my response I do not attempt to keep a manicured look throughout the entire growing season. Prefer to allow extra strength to build within the tree for longer periods of time during development. I tend to think continuous trimming can weaken the tree over time and reduce the desired response from pruning. I save that approach for final refinement and maintaining image.

I’ve thought about it weakening the tree, but in 30+ years it doesn’t seem to have done that. I’m wondering if you have a feeding plan you use to slow them down i.e. starve it a little?? Does anyone out there do this? What’s the schedule?

 

[River's Edge]

I’ve thought about it weakening the tree, but in 30+ years it doesn’t seem to have done that. I’m wondering if you have a feeding plan you use to slow them down i.e. starve it a little?? Does anyone out there do this? What’s the schedule?

No need to change your approach if you are satisfied with the results.
I personally have not used that methodology to slow down or aid refinement with Hemlock under development. Please understand my response is based on developing collected trees. I fertilize regularly throughout the growing season. My fertilizer is home made ,typically low numbers NPK below 10 and organic. The other types used occasionally are liquid, Alaska brand Fish fertilizer and Dyna Gro. My preference is to obtain foliage density and smaller needle size through increasing the number of branchlets and needles , not restricting the number or strength. Contrary to the traditional approach, I fully understand that.

If maintaining a show tree in show condition then I would restrict fertilizer at certain times and reduce the overall vigor of the tree! I agree this is a useful approach at that time. The schedule I would use for that is light fertilization beginning of September to strengthen the tree for winter. Then by Octobert I would withhold fertilizer until after the spring flush has hardened off. Even then the fertilizer would be low numbers and light feeding every two weeks for the month of June and possibly till middle of July if warranted by the condition oaf the plant! Still wanting to err on the side of keeping a very healthy plant.

Two different methodology's working towards the same goal. The goal posts keep moving and the tree keeps changing. Even after temporarily attaining some degree of refinement the stage returns to allowing regrowth and a higher level of vigor to keep the tree healthy over the decades! I suspect both methodology's are useful if the tree is to survive in a Bonsai pot for a century or more.

 

[ABCarve]

No need to change your approach if you are satisfied with the results.
I personally have not used that methodology to slow down or aid refinement with Hemlock under development. Please understand my response is based on developing collected trees. I fertilize regularly throughout the growing season. My fertilizer is home made ,typically low numbers NPK below 10 and organic. The other types used occasionally are liquid, Alaska brand Fish fertilizer and Dyna Gro. My preference is to obtain foliage density and smaller needle size through increasing the number of branchlets and needles , not restricting the number or strength. Contrary to the traditional approach, I fully understand that.

If maintaining a show tree in show condition then I would restrict fertilizer at certain times and reduce the overall vigor of the tree! I agree this is a useful approach at that time. The schedule I would use for that is light fertilization beginning of September to strengthen the tree for winter. Then by Octobert I would withhold fertilizer until after the spring flush has hardened off. Even then the fertilizer would be low numbers and light feeding every two weeks for the month of June and possibly till middle of July if warranted by the condition oaf the plant! Still wanting to err on the side of keeping a very healthy plant.

Two different methodology's working towards the same goal. The goal posts keep moving and the tree keeps changing. Even after temporarily attaining some degree of refinement the stage returns to allowing regrowth and a higher level of vigor to keep the tree healthy over the decades! I suspect both methodology's are useful if the tree is to survive in a Bonsai pot for a century or more.

I saw Michael H’s group hemlock at the National a few years ago. It was totally hardened off in September. I can’t get mine to do this without being totally over-grown. How’s that happen?

 

[0soyoung]

I saw Michael H’s group hemlock at the National a few years ago. It was totally hardened off in September. I can’t get mine to do this without being totally over-grown. How’s that happen?

You could see it closely enough to tell it was hardened as opposed to trimmed back to older growth just prior to the show?

 

[ABCarve]

I personally have not used that methodology to slow down or aid refinement with Hemlock under development.

Just not to misunderstand....I'm not using this method to slow it down.....I'm doing it to keep it chased back and from outgrowing its silhouette. Here our easterns put out their spring growth extensions, harden off and stop for the year. I was hoping that letting mine harden off, settle in and then pruning it would stop the second flush of growth.

 

[ABCarve]

You could see it closely enough to tell it was hardened as opposed to trimmed back to older growth just prior to the show?

Yes....so how's that done without it being totally overgrown?

 

[River's Edge]

I saw Michael H’s group hemlock at the National a few years ago. It was totally hardened off in September. I can’t get mine to do this without being totally over-grown. How’s that happen?

Hours and hours of meticulous trimming and wiring. Nothing magical

 

[ABCarve]

Hours and hours of meticulous trimming and wiring. Nothing magical

Are you saying he removed all of the new lighter colored growth? I’m not being obtuse but I am confused about it.

 

[ABCarve]

Hours and hours of meticulous trimming and wiring. Nothing magical

Here’s a photo I just took. See all the new growth. The only time it doesn’t look like that is just before bud-break in the spring. Do you think Michael lets the second flush hardened off and prunes before the show??

 

[River's Edge]

Here’s a photo I just took. See all the new growth. The only time it doesn’t look like that is just before bud-break in the spring. Do you think Michael lets the second flush hardened off and prunes before the show??View attachment 327253

Just to clarify a couple of points. Michael is working with Yamadori, old trees. As am I. Collected Mountain Hemlock. Tsuga Mertensiana
The tree in the photo you provided appears from the bark to be young and the bark appears different from the Mountain Hemlock we are working with. The reddish brown bark in the picture appears more like a Western Hemlock ( Tsuga Hetrophylla) and the growth pattern on the needle foliage appears different as well. Western hemlock have flatter needles arranged laterally. Mountain hemlock have more rounded needles, stomata on top of the needle and arranged spirally.
Juvenile Mountain Hemlock have grey coloured bark.
Any chance we are discussing apples and oranges or at least two varieties of apples?

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Here’s a photo I just took. See all the new growth. The only time it doesn’t look like that is just before bud-break in the spring. Do you think Michael lets the second flush hardened off and prunes before the show??View attachment 327253

That is incredible foliage density. My easterns are getting closer to refinement, but still have a ways. But I find the more I cut throughout the season, the more they respond with growth. And the more I wire put on, the more disorganized the growth comes out.. they are contrarian
Although I don’t have the creds you guys have, if it were my tree, this winter I would give it a harder cutback to a simplified structure to the branches, keeping the weighting between the branches as desired. Then come spring I would let it run with minimal (but some) trimming / wire, and see how it responds.
I may be way off-base, but if you are finding the training regimen tedious, maybe taking a few steps back and then letting the tree have more input in it’s styling could lead to a less tedious regimen going forward.
Love your tree by the way. Between my two easterns they each have their own very different growth habits. One was wild type and one was Home Depot type.

 

[River's Edge]

Here’s a photo I just took. See all the new growth. The only time it doesn’t look like that is just before bud-break in the spring. Do you think Michael lets the second flush hardened off and prunes before the show??View attachment 327253

For further clarification here is one of my Mountain Hemlock that is moving towards refinement. First picture shows the new flush of growth in June, Second picture shows foliage hardened off in August. Third pictures shows the structure after further wiring and trimming in March. The wiring and trimming on this tree usually takes me about three full days. I am slow. Each branch and branchlet is wired to form pad structure. Wire is applied, removed and reapplied throughout the process! The tree has been in training for about five years and it has been fully wired and rewired at least four times. With short breaks for growth between wire removal and reapplication. The longest period the wire remained was after the initial styling in the fall of 2014. Each time it is wired, less wire is required in the interior and more fine wiring is needed on the exterior, particularly in areas where extension is still desired.

 

[ABCarve]

Just to clarify a couple of points. Michael is working with Yamadori, old trees. As am I. Collected Mountain Hemlock. Tsuga Mertensiana
Any chance we are discussing apples and oranges or at least two varieties of apples?

I think you're absolutely correct about apples and oranges. Your lovely photos tell a great story of the seasonal growth of Mertensiana. Thank you!! I guess that's what I was trying to get at back in post #39. I also think this a great thread for comparing and contrasting all varieties of hemlock and their growth habits. My tree I'm showing above is a yamadori....eastern style. It was about 30 years old when I collected it and has spent about 30 years in a pot, a total of approx. 60. Here, instead of their growth being stunted by altitude and harsh conditions, easterns are stunted by available light. Most live in the shaded under-story barely growing, waiting for an opening in the canopy. Once that happens they take off and grow extremely fast. This is why "most" of them are only suitable for formal or informal uprights. The picture below is one I'm trying to grow some movement into. It was taken from a open field that had been logged and it's juvenile bark tells that story. Not sure what will happen to it.

Between my two easterns they each have their own very different growth habits. One was wild type and one was Home Depot type.

I think this is true about different growth habits within the eastern variety. My pal has a nice collected eastern that acts more like Frank's tree about hardening off. At first I thought it might be a health issue but I now think it's genetics.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I think you're absolutely correct about apples and oranges. Your lovely photos tell a great story of the seasonal growth of Mertensiana. Thank you!! I guess that's what I was trying to get at back in post #39. I also think this a great thread for comparing and contrasting all varieties of hemlock and their growth habits. My tree I'm showing above is a yamadori....eastern style. It was about 30 years old when I collected it and has spent about 30 years in a pot, a total of approx. 60. Here, instead of their growth being stunted by altitude and harsh conditions, easterns are stunted by available light. Most live in the shaded under-story barely growing, waiting for an opening in the canopy. Once that happens they take off and grow extremely fast. This is why "most" of them are only suitable for formal or informal uprights. The picture below is one I'm trying to grow some movement into. It was taken from a open field that had been logged and it's juvenile bark tells that story. Not sure what will happen to it.

I think this is true about different growth habits within the eastern variety. My pal has a nice collected eastern that acts more like Frank's tree about hardening off. At first I thought it might be a health issue but I now think it's genetics.

View attachment 327382

Is that last one your friend’s? I really like, and would be tempted to wire down hard into a smaller weeping form. Although one of mine is “weepier” than the other, they both will eventually pull their own growth downward when allowed to extend. Can be frustrating when trimming as the branches can spring up hard when cut.
I am leaning more and more towards “controlled extension” when dealing with my easterns, rather than pinching or hedging. Of course the proof is in the pudding, and I don’t have much of that yet.

 

[ABCarve]

Is that last one your friend’s? I really like, and would be tempted to wire down hard into a smaller weeping form. Although one of mine is “weepier” than the other, they both will eventually pull their own growth downward when allowed to extend. Can be frustrating when trimming as the branches can spring up hard when cut.
I am leaning more and more towards “controlled extension” when dealing with my easterns, rather than pinching or hedging. Of course the proof is in the pudding, and I don’t have much of that yet.

Nope, this one is mine and it won't stop growing! Wanna buy it?? PM and we'll talk price. I really want to void myself of conifers. These are a lot of work and they always look the same. I guess I'm just turning into a deciduous person..... for that matter flowering deciduous.