The Controversial Topic of Deciduous "Pine Styled" Bonsai Trees

[thumblessprimate1]

I have seen some of the best bonsai in the world in Japan, ones people would say look like pines or not natural. Every branch at one time was wired. "Pancake" nebari. Not even going into the time and work invested in them, but they especially make me feel like I'm in a really awesome forest despite only being amongst bonsai.

 

[Victorim]

Strictly accepting "Naturalistic" or "Traditional" as THE way to do bonsai is simply a slavish dedication to what other people say. "Naturalistic" style has become as rigidly "acceptable" as its supporters say "traditional" artists are.

It's all subjective. Along with naturalistic and traditional, bonsai styles can be clannish and faddish (and snobbish) on both sides. There is no single "way" that is "better" than the other.

Make what you want. Do it well and in harmony with what a rough piece of stock suggests to you. The product of that combination is usually bulletproof style wise.

Think Rock has basically given your end answer here @just.wing.it . And my pwnie opinion is of the same. When you take all your knowledge, ability, and sit there with your material.. the material should tell you what to do.

 

[just.wing.it]

the material should tell you what to do.

I get that... I understand that...and at times I've tried to do that...
I think that is absolutely they way you have to look at true yamadori.

But, on the flip side of that, I also understand people who say, "don't give me that crap about letting the tree guide me. We wire, pull, push, crank, twist and bend these trees to our will"....which I've seen people here say, in the past...

That's why I like landscape nursery material...total blank canvas, no natural beauty to respect, no waiting for the tree to tell me what to do...

With that said, I want to get more aggressive with some of my stuff in the coming years...

 

[Anthony]

Just don't drive yourself nuts, it's a hobby [ for most ]

 

[grouper52]

So I've just noticed that more and more I hear love for Naturalistic Style and basic discust for Non-conifers styled as Pines...

Color me uninformed, but what is a "pine style" vs. a "non-conifer style"?

And why is this a tenet of the "naturalistic style," of which some think I'm a proponent (and perhaps even something of an expert)?

And who the heck cares anyway, and why? The tree tells me what it wants to do, and I try to work with it in a fashion I find appealing. It's that simple.

 

[Cable]

via Imgflip Meme Generator

 

[Joe Dupre']

If it is art, it comes from inside you, to please you. If you want to show or sell your art, you will have to cater to other peoples wants. If pine-shaped deciduous trees sell and win prizes, then you have to make them if you want to win or sell them. Our bonsai club has two shows a year ...........no prizes, no awards..........nothing. I prefer it that way.

 

[just.wing.it]

Color me uninformed, but what is a "pine style" vs. a "non-conifer style"?

And why is this a tenet of the "naturalistic style," of which some think I'm a proponent (and perhaps even something of an expert)?

And who the heck cares anyway, and why? The tree tells me what it wants to do, and I try to work with it in a fashion I find appealing. It's that simple.

So I didn't say "non-conifer style", I said NonConifers (deciduous or broadleaf evergreen) styled as Pines...
My definition of pine style would be, single trunk, horizontal/downward branches forming pads, a more traditional bonsai style...
Naturalistic, the main trunk divides into subtrunks, with branches going up and out, general flame shape...like a deciduous tree in a feild.

Does that answer what you're getting at???

 

[grouper52]

So I didn't say "non-conifer style", I said NonConifers (deciduous or broadleaf evergreen) styled as Pines...
My definition of pine style would be, single trunk, horizontal/downward branches forming pads, a more traditional bonsai style...
Naturalistic, the main trunk divides into subtrunks, with branches going up and out, general flame shape...like a deciduous tree in a feild.

Does that answer what you're getting at???

Not to be snide, but I have no earthly idea what you're talking about. Just enjoy your trees, OK?

 

[just.wing.it]

Not to be snide, but I have no earthly idea what you're talking about. Just enjoy your trees, OK?

Hahaha!
Ten4 on that!

Maybe you're over thinking it.......or I am...
Or are you subtlety telling me that it doesn't matter???
That's what I'm saying, "what's the big stink?"

Either way....Sall good buddy.

 

[Wilson]

Both super cool trees!

 

[Rose Mary]

I took one of my big'n fat tridents that I'd been styling as an informal broom to a Boon workshop last week... wellllll.... it ain't being styled as an informal broom any more.

before and after photos please

 

[Potawatomi13]

No, thats exactly why I screamed pic Come on now.. just one

No point to comment if not illustrated by particular tree.

 

[Potawatomi13]

I want get to the bottom of this...

An Informal Upright Trident...
A Formal Upright JM...

Is it really that offensive to see???

Can they not still be beautiful works of living art???

I'm all for Naturalistic Style, using the species's mature look as a blueprint for your bonsai...and I am striving for that in many of my trees.

Has the culture of bonsai changed in front of our eyes???

It seems more and more, like people are quick to dismiss the notion of a "pine style" for a deciduous tree...

What's the big freaking deal!?!?!

Maybe making a tree grow in a way in which it normally would not is part of the art...for some.

Where are the Maple Styled conifers???
Is that a thing people do???

In American perception is perceived that Japanese trees all highly rigidly bent to rules. In America we(some/many of us)strive for more natural styling. Just received stunning revelation that perception of Japan may be warped because at Kokufu(sp?)exibition rules/refinement rigidly abode by as no one else seems to be recognized. Moving farther North in Japan seems to bring more natural less rigid style of trees. Kenichi Aba is excellent example for northern styling. During Ryan Neil live stream of 5 Needle Pine nuances(Oct 5 stream)this was explained as viewer questions inspired. Ryan strives to let tree display natural environment inspired style for trees as well as for KIND of tree. SOME pines/SOME broadleaved may criss over to grow like opposite kind. Can be done but should look naturally good on tree. If looks contrived/man made will not be pleasing to most eyes.

 

[BunjaeKorea]

To be honest most Japanese arent going to be hapoy with anything other than the Japanese style.....many look down on Korean Bunjae and Chinese Penjing.......then again many dont. If the tree looks convincing then I really dont see the need to be puritanical about things.....
A good tree is a good tree

 

[grouper52]

Hahaha!
Ten4 on that!

Maybe you're over thinking it.......or I am...
Or are you subtlety telling me that it doesn't matter???
That's what I'm saying, "what's the big stink?"

Either way....Sall good buddy.

Yes ... something like that . . . . . .

A man I knew went up to have the liberating Darshan (audience) of a holy man from India, and standing before this renouned sage he asked some highly intellectual/philosophical question about "The Path." The Guru simply said, "You think too much," and waved him on. It changed his life - much for the better.

Spend some time, if you're into such things, reading and re-reading, over and over, until you're really in touch with the beauty and wisdom there, Transcription of Organ Music by Alan Ginsberg. https://www.best-poems.net/allen_ginsberg/transcription_of_organ_music.html ... or not.

 

[just.wing.it]

View attachment 181636View attachment 181637
Both super cool trees!

Killer example, thanks Wilson!

 

[sorce]

Always abide by the code.

How does this one go....?

"The island that can't be found except for by those who already know where it is..."

I often think of it in regards to my personal journey...

But each tree, anyone's tree, they all are like that island.

We are all "the only ones who know how to get there".

Of course you can receive good advice here.
And it helps.

Bad advice helps too, like a broken compass, you have to "feel" your way there anyway!

It's like hearing 6 different options, all good, but finding the proper design in the "negative space" of the thread.
@wireme and the tree he let me build a pot for....(drying!...dope!...the hehehehe!) Come to mind. He and a couple others do it well...

Gather all the information and ideas....

Then resort back to the broken compass and feel your way to the design with help from the tree.

Everything is nothing.
Nothing is perfect.

Sorce

 

[choppychoppy]

I've got some of those 'alternative' styled trees. This is kinda tough to see with the background but this is about a 4ft tall BRT styled not natural. It was originally set bones-wise many years ago and the original owner passed away and the tree was kinda neglected for several years before I received it. I have kept the original design idea as I felt it brought out the best tree. This tree has not one scar or wire mark and the trunk and even all the side branches are wildly folded.

 

[Zach Smith]

Fun topic. I look at it this way. If you can take a green mound juniper and style it to look like a pine tree - which I have never heard anyone mention or complain about in all the threads where folks pontificate about how awful it is to style deciduous trees to look like pines - then what's wrong with styling a tree in such a way that it looks artistically rendered? If it's wrong, then we must stop styling green mounds in any upright style because they're recumbent plants. In fact, most junipers may not be styled in a pine tree style, since it's not naturalistic.

If the bonsai evokes the impression of a large, old tree in nature but in miniature form, I'd say anything goes - because, frankly, it has.