Simulating floods for bald cypress taper.

[19Mateo83]

At his nursery Bruce Appledorn has a number of large BC growing in dry ground and he mows the area under them regularly to keep the knees under control. I was amazed at how many knees there were in there.

That doesn’t sound too friendly to his mower

 

[Cajunrider]

That doesn’t sound too friendly to his mower

Down here the local hardware store actually sell root grinder that can shave the knees to keep them from becoming problems to the mower.
In my old homestead, I have the flail mower and the bush hog that can chop away anything below 3" in diameter. Whatever knee surfaces will be cut away easily.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Want a wide flare at the point the roots join the trunk? (Nebari) The principal to developing a spreading nebari is the same whether you are growing elms, maples, pines or bald cypress.

SHALLOW POTS - except for cascade and semi-cascade pots, all other bonsai pots are shallow, for USA people, less than 3 inches interior depth (less than 7.5 cm interior depth) if you want a seamless transition from "in-training" to bonsai pots, train all your young material in shallow containers less than 7.5 cm in depth. (3 inches). Only the largest bonsai pots are over 10 cm interior depth (4 inches). Cascade and semi-cascade pots are a different story, and not a possibility with bald cypress.

Bald cypress have an upright growth habit, cascading styles are not possible long term. Slanting is possible as long as the slant is above horizontal. The horticulture of Bald Cypress, trunks will not persist (live) long term with below horizontal trunk styles.

So given commercially available bonsai pots are shallow, there is wisdom in raising young, seedling and collected, and nursery bald cypress in shallow trays. Deep nursery pots simply make later adjustments to the tree more difficult. Flats, filled to less than 10 cm of soil (less than 4 inches of soil) will keep the root system confined to a narrow elevation. Wide flats that hold 5 gallons or more of potting media (20 liters or more) can allow trees to attain considerable trunk diameter with sun, ample water and fertilizer.

Flood or not to flood? Forestry papers suggest faster growth rates can be had without flooding. @Mellow Mullet and others (including my personal experience) clearly have demonstrated adequate to "pretty darn good" growth can be had keeping trees flooded. Personal experience has shown that bald cypress will not "rebound" after a hard dry out. The shallow flats we use to develop are prone to drying out, so keeping them in trays of water can buy us (the growers) the extra time to get around to watering. Keeping bald cypress in standing water for the warmest months of the year is a very good option for growers that have to balance work and home life.

Bald cypress are botanically related to redwoods, and share with redwoods very fast growth rates when conditions are good. They appreciate warm summer weather. Those of us in the northernmost tier of states and provinces will not see the rapid growth that long warm summers will yield. They are distinct from redwoods, but they are closer to the redwoods than other groups of conifers. At a distance it is tricky to distinguish a Metasequoia from a bald cypress.

FWIW, There is evidence that some populations of Bald cypress in Texas (particularly Central Texas) don't produce knees--see "interesting facts" in the link below.

Texas A&M Forest Service - Trees of Texas - List of Trees

I don't know if that's true, but the above link is from Texas A&M, so go figure...I've also seen the same referenced in other places as possibly genetic.

I have a feeling that BC produce knees where there is high underground water table. Central Texas has a dome of underlying alkaline-ish coleche soil (which is fossilized sea shell) underneath topsoil that can inhibit such growth as well.

I have photos of bald cypress in my BNut profile media, available to forum members to view, there are photos from a canoe trip to visit a 1300 year old specimen on the Lower Cache River near Vienna IL. The knees belonging to that tree start nearly a quarter mile away from the tree. I also visited the Guadalupe River, near Braunfelds, TX, and the bald cypress lining the river there had no knees. This struck me as very odd. But indeed seemed widespread for the area. Whether is was the "caliche" or not, don't know. Under Vienna IL there is dolomitic limestone, so I am not sure the presence of limestone or not would cause knees or not. Perhaps the Guadalupe River population of BC has some hybrid gene introgression with Taxodium mucronatum. Note: hybrid gene introgression is NOT the same thing as a "simple" hybrid. It is a feature of a POPULATION of organisms. Its not (cat x dog) or (lion x tiger), For gene introgression the hybridization is implied or factually known (depending on organism) to have happened many generations previously. Subsequent crosses are between members of an interbreeding group, with a certain percentage of genes being from a species other than the nominate species. Majority of the traits will be of the nominate species. There will be a few "relict traits" of the past hybridizations.

So yes, I have seen bald cypress that do not produce knees, strange as that may be. I like 'em better with knees. But heck, that's personal tastes. Some like brunettes.

In pots, I am not certain I have seen "true knees" form. I have seen loops of roots, in fact I have folded surface roots myself, to get them to poke above the soil. In time these folded loops of roots look like knees, especially if a tight loop is done on a thin root. You can make fairly convincing "knees" by folding thin roots, with some practice. It also seems the roots will accidentally kink themselves to similar effect. I don't know if these are "true knees", I don't believe they are. But bonsai is all about appearance. If they look like knees in the display pot, it doesn't matter whether they are folded roots or "true knees". It is the appearance that counts.

 

[sorce]

The sunshine in the subject beams one ray into my life.

What a great feeling!

Sorce

 

[19Mateo83]

@Leo in N E Illinois do you think the anaerobic environment in the subsoils in these swampy areas plays a role on the BC forming shallow root masses?

 

[dbonsaiw]

Interesting experiment. Is this only to establish the fat base and taper or do folks typically keep BCs submerged even after they have developed the desired taper?

 

[Cajunrider]

Interesting experiment. Is this only to establish the fat base and taper or do folks typically keep BCs submerged even after they have developed the desired taper?

For me, once it developed I won't keep it completely submerged. However, the practice of keeping it in some level of water will continue simple for ease of keeping. I can go away for a few days and not worry about dead bonsai when I get back. When I travel I will put my BC in big cement tub with water as a back up in case my sprinkler fails to work.

 

[19Mateo83]

@dbonsaiw im trying to imitate, as naturally as possible, the growing conditions that produces trees with the natural basal flare that BC are known for.

 

[19Mateo83]

Here is the tub fully flooded. It is not just the whole root ball that is submerged, but it also floods the lower portion of the trunk as well. (The little ones in the middle of the tub)

Technically I have 3 water levels in this tub. The ones in the red pots are about 2” underwater, the three in the little square pots are barely underwater and the rest are above.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Leo in N E Illinois do you think the anaerobic environment in the subsoils in these swampy areas plays a role on the BC forming shallow root masses?

Anaerobic soils in general kill most tree roots. I would think anaerobic soils would help keep root systems shallow. However as @rockm mentioned, most bald cypress swamps ARE NOT STAGNANT, they do not necessarily have anaerobic layers in their soils. Maybe lower oxygen, but not necessarily devoid of oxygen. Bald Cypress Swamps have slow moving currents, they are rivers, water flows in, water flows out. There is gas exchange. They may be slow enough moving waters that floating plants like duckweed might not seem to be moving, but the water is flowing.

I would NOT try to create an anaerobic layer in a nursery pot, bonsai pot or in my garden. Having raised tropical fish while in my teens, I know what a disaster anoxic soil-water mix can be, and it never stays just where you want it. The odor will attract animals, from dogs to rats to racoons and skunks, all will root around looking for properly fermented and tasty dead things.

I think it is best we take a deep breath and relax, accept that we do not know why knees form, and just grow the mystery that is the bald cypress.

 

[19Mateo83]

@Leo in N E Illinois i definitely don’t want to go anaerobic in this tub. I don’t think it’s deep enough…. Plus it will dry down or be regularly flushed by rain fall before it goes anaerobic. It definitely will be a lower oxygen environment on the bottom though.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Key point I want to make. The wide flaring base, spreading nebari, that we cherish in bonsai CAN be created in young bald cypress using the same techniques we use for elm, maples and other deciduous trees. Flooding the roots DOES NOTHING toward creating a wide nebari. Root pruning, shallow pots, attaching the tree to a board (Ebihara technique), are the types of techniques needed to get wide basal flare in a bald cypress.

BC normally have a good nebari spread, so one doesn't have to work as hard to get a good response as one might with a maple. But flooding has nothing to do with nebari forming.

Because BC love water, it might be handy to keep them in trays of water in summer, but it's not "mandatory".

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Key point I want to make. The wide flaring base, spreading nebari, that we cherish in bonsai CAN be created in young bald cypress using the same techniques we use for elm, maples and other deciduous trees. Flooding the roots DOES NOTHING toward creating a wide nebari. Root pruning, shallow pots, attaching the tree to a board (Ebihara technique), are the types of techniques needed to get wide basal flare in a bald cypress.

BC normally have a good nebari spread, so one doesn't have to work as hard to get a good response as one might with a maple. But flooding has nothing to do with nebari forming.

Because BC love water, it might be handy to keep them in trays of water in summer, but it's not "mandatory".

I will have to respectfully disagree. I will agree that it can be done like elms and maples with a board, I have done it, but the flare is not as significant. Submerging does increase flare and girth quicker. I have had as much as a 1/4 inch in just mid summer.

 

[Cajunrider]

I will have to respectfully disagree. I will agree that it can be done like elms and maples with a board, I have done it, but the flare is not as significant. Submerging does increase flare and girth quicker. I have had as much as a 1/4 inch in just mid summer.

I agree with Mellow Mullet. Submerging is by no mean mandatory because BC can adapt to most soil conditions and still grow well. However, it is a way that @Mellow Mullet and I have found to work well for us for achieving good growth and excellent base flare.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Mellow Mullet and @Cajunrider well, between the two of you I have to cry uncle, I simply have not grown that many BC, for that many decades. I'm north of their native range. As they say "individual results may vary".

 

[Cajunrider]

@Mellow Mullet and @Cajunrider well, between the two of you I have to cry uncle, I simply have not grown that many BC, for that many decades. I'm north of their native range. As they say "individual results may vary".

All I am saying is that BC grows well in many conditions. We just found one that works for us in the South for our bonsai goals. It is by no means unique or mandatory. It is a way not the only way as you pointed out.

 

[Maiden69]

I think the location has a lot to do with how much you can get out of a tree... not only BC, but every tree that we cultivate. I was listening to Ryan the other day when he was talking about black pines and how people in the south have been able to get 3 flushes out of them. He don't know the specific timing, but I am for sure going to test that in one of mine.

When it comes to the BC, the length of our growing season, the heat, humidity, and excess of nutrients allows the tree to use the extra water presented in the pot. My ficus exerts the same properties when I keep the bottom 1/4 of the root ball, as does my luma and to some point my liquidambar orientalis. Without all the extra sunlight, water and heat, I don't think that we would be able to see that extra growth. This is why trees grown on the grown seldomly show that exagerated buttress on the root area.

 

[Adair M]

@Mellow Mullet and @Cajunrider well, between the two of you I have to cry uncle, I simply have not grown that many BC, for that many decades. I'm north of their native range. As they say "individual results may vary".

Ha ha! Yes! You should cry ”Uncle”! LOL!!! I have one in a bonsai pot, sitting submerged up to within about 1/2 inch of the rim in the bog area of my koi pond. The bog is an area of gently flowing water where I have water pumped in from below and up thru layers of boulders and rocks, finally up thru a thick layer of pea gravel. So, it’s not anaerobic. But since I put the tree in the pot, the trunk girth has quadrupled! It was perhaps 2 1/2 inches across when I put it in, it’s now about 6 inches. And I haven’t repotted. I did find one root that had grown up and over the rim into the gravel! I cut it off.


And there are “weeping” cultivars of Bald Cypress. I have one in my front yard in an area that gets standing water after big rains. I tried growing a Japanese Maple there, but the standing water killed it. So, the weeping Bald Cypress does great. It was a nursery tree, with the weeping cultivar branches grafted onto a regular BC trunk. And then, the regular BC branches were removed after the weeping grafts “took”. For the most part, they weep like a weeping willow. I do have an apex branch that is growing upward in an S shaped manner. I’m letting it grow this season to let it help get the roots established, but I’ll remove it this fall as I don’t want the tree to grow tall. But, my point is: you could make a cascade or semi cascade using the weeping cultivar.

Sergio has a small regular BC where he has wired the branches down to cascade. He has to rewire it every year. I have told him he should forget that and just use the weeping cultivar. He won’t. He’s stubborn. LOL!!!

 

[MACH5]

Sergio has a small regular BC where he has wired the branches down to cascade. He has to rewire it every year. I have told him he should forget that and just use the weeping cultivar. He won’t. He’s stubborn. LOL!!!

LOL sometimes I can be! But... unfortunately is not that easy. Even using a naturally weeping cultivar won't be an easy 1:1 translation down to bonsai scale. At that size, you'll have plenty of straight up branches that would need to be manipulated to conform to the tight curves I am working with. I had the opportunity to work with a couple of weeping BCs in Texas. They still required similar work and treatment. I have also worked with several weeping willows for clients and I still had to do quite a bit of wiring to bring the bush down to a believable weeping-tree image. I think no matter what, weeping styles do require a good deal of work to get the best out of them.

 

[19Mateo83]

LOL sometimes I can be! But... unfortunately is not that easy. Even using a naturally weeping cultivar won't be an easy 1:1 translation down to bonsai scale. At that size, you'll have plenty of straight up branches that would need to be manipulated to conform to the tight curves I am working with. I had the opportunity to work with a couple of weeping BCs in Texas. They still required similar work and treatment. I have also worked with several weeping willows for clients and I still had to do quite a bit of wiring to bring the bush down to a believable weeping-tree image. I think no matter what, weeping styles do require a good deal of work to get the best out of them.

Your weeping BC Is fantastic!