Nishiki Gawa vs Arakawa Japanese Maple?

[GGB]

Regardless of whether I'm full of hot air or not, look up the amount of people online currently growing arakawa from seed (on this site alone) and selling them and you'll have to admit that at least the "bloodline" is chock full of imposters. I won't call out the grower I mentioned, because he's awesome, and my stance on the "cultivar status" not being real. but at the end of the day it doesn't matter anyway. If you want an easy to find coarser growing maple with good bark get arakawa, if you want one with a little more finess get one with nishiki in the name, described as delicate. Japan used a different system for it's varieties than the rest of the world for a long time, so even things like katsura have potential contiminants over the hundreds of years theoretically. I wasn't in Japan in 1910 so I can't say for sure that they do or dont.

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

Regardless of whether I'm full of hot air or not, look up the amount of people online currently growing arakawa from seed (on this site alone) and selling them and you'll have to admit that at least the "bloodline" is chock full of imposters. I won't call out the grower I mentioned, because he's awesome, and my stance on the "cultivar status" not being real. but at the end of the day it doesn't matter anyway. If you want an easy to find coarser growing maple with good bark get arakawa, if you want one with a little more finess get one with nishiki in the name, described as delicate. Japan used a different system for it's varieties than the rest of the world for a long time, so even things like katsura have potential contiminants over the hundreds of years theoretically. I wasn't in Japan in 1910 so I can't say for sure that they do or dont.

I've seen ppl sell seedlings that came from an Arakawa parent as "rough bark" only if they displayed the rough bark but I haven't been that far down the rabbit hole. I personally just like to experiment with seeds and never intentionally misnomer the cultivar.

 

[SouthernMaple]

I have both and rooted cuttings and airlayers of each. I like the fact that nishiki barks up first but from a development standpoint it doesn't give you as much time to fix mistakes because once it barks up it no longer back buds. Both airlayer and root from cuttings very easily. Personally I like the leaves on an Arakawa better and I feel all in all Arakawa is less finicky and ramifies better.

Good luck on your search, there is a vendor at the Knoxville show that usually carries Nishiki Gawa as for Arakawa, Bonsai Learning Center has a bunch.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Ok, I'm gonna be that guy, usually bite my tongue on this one but...

Arakawa is not actually a cultivar but a feature (the rough bark) which is totally cool. But arakawa refers to the rough bark cultivars ibo nishiki, nishiki gawa, etc. You can NOW get "arakawa" maples imported from Japan, but they are seed grown from the "arakawa" cultivars such as the trees above. So IMO if you are going to pay more money for a cultivar, I'd get a real cultivar where leaf size and internode are documented or even specifically bred for bonsai. Versus some potentially coarse tree dubbed a cultivar name that is actually an adjective. When enough people use a word long enough it becomes a real word/name/cultivar which is a shame in this case as I'm aware of at least one notable grower in America selling "arakawa" maples from seed. The ones that never produce rough bark are just sold as green maples. Not interested in debating anyone, the information is out there if you search for it.

Never heard this about JM ‘arakawa’, always worked under the impression it is a cultivar with a Japanese name translated as rough bark.

 

[Hack Yeah!]

Post in thread 'Pine bark maple' https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/pine-bark-maple.36492/post-614086

 

[namnhi]

How are you growing A. Palmatum here in htx? are they able to be grown without issues? Currently only growing tridents as I've been told to only grow those here.

Am still experimenting but found that they do best when they in full shade during summer. The year before last when I have one of the tree in pretty much full shade... it rewarded me with nice Fall color. I think the key is to give them shade after the spring flush has been hardened. Acclimate them to the shade, don't wait until you already see

 

[Rivian]

Post in thread 'Pine bark maple' https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/pine-bark-maple.36492/post-614086

Funny that Bill says Nishiki gawa is hard to propagate but others say its as easy as Arakawa. So seems like different indivuals going under the same cultivar name.

 

[Hack Yeah!]

Funny that Bill says Nishiki gawa is hard to propagate but others say its as easy as Arakawa. So seems like different indivuals going under the same cultivar name.

I'm guessing you are correct. I've got a nishiki gawa, or sold as such, which has layered and cuttings propagate fine.

 

[GGB]

Never heard this about JM ‘arakawa’, always worked under the impression it is a cultivar with a Japanese name translated as rough bark.

Things have gotten so jumbled up that it is hard to put much faith in what anyone says who isn’t fluent in Japanese. Which is why I don’t usually even bring the subject up, who am I to insist. But after reading the article attached above, even Valavanis writes that he sells his Arakawa grown from seed. There is no doubt in my mind that even if Arakawa was a cultivar (and it may have been) the original lineage is long lost in this country.

 

[Rivian]

Things have gotten so jumbled up that it is hard to put much faith in what anyone says who isn’t fluent in Japanese. Which is why I don’t usually even bring the subject up, who am I to insist. But after reading the article attached above, even Valavanis writes that he sells his Arakawa grown from seed. There is no doubt in my mind that even if Arakawa was a cultivar (and it may have been) the original lineage is long lost in this country.

I would hope that all the arakawas with top death are clones, a fluke so to say, or its quite the condemnation of rough bark genetics

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

Things have gotten so jumbled up that it is hard to put much faith in what anyone says who isn’t fluent in Japanese. Which is why I don’t usually even bring the subject up, who am I to insist. But after reading the article attached above, even Valavanis writes that he sells his Arakawa grown from seed. There is no doubt in my mind that even if Arakawa was a cultivar (and it may have been) the original lineage is long lost in this country.

Valvanis said he has an Arakawa he got from a cutting that he planted in his yard and he sells seeds from those as rough bark ONLY if they display that character. NEVER SEEN HIM CALL THOSE SEEDLINGS ARAKAWA...

 

[GGB]

see link I posted. Seems those who import and spend time in Japan have trouble finding this “Arakawa”. I have no interest in getting anyone angry or hijacking this thread further, was just something I thought some might find interesting.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Things have gotten so jumbled up that it is hard to put much faith in what anyone says who isn’t fluent in Japanese. Which is why I don’t usually even bring the subject up, who am I to insist. But after reading the article attached above, even Valavanis writes that he sells his Arakawa grown from seed. There is no doubt in my mind that even if Arakawa was a cultivar (and it may have been) the original lineage is long lost in this country.

It seems cultivar is less emphasized in Japan than the US, and it’s more likely the cultivar is preserved here.

 

[AnutterBonsai]

Am still experimenting but found that they do best when they in full shade during summer. The year before last when I have one of the tree in pretty much full shade... it rewarded me with nice Fall color. I think the key is to give them shade after the spring flush has been hardened. Acclimate them to the shade, don't wait until you already see

Ok, thank you so much! I will see if I can find a cheap one to work on maybe this year and see how I do

 

[SouthernMaple]

not ne

Funny that Bill says Nishiki gawa is hard to propagate but others say its as easy as Arakawa. So seems like different indivuals going under the same cultivar name

Not necessarily, I have the hardest time getting shin deshojo to root but don't have a problem with deshojo. Which if you ask 10 growers 90% of them would say the opposite.

 

[achtungluchs]

@leatherback here is/was a great rundown of what I was talking about. The person leading the discussion is an importer from what I remember, but here's a the thing... the website is still up and running but seems to be having difficulty today. I can't open it on any device but I'll copy and paste it here assuming they will fix the problem on there end shortly.

https://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/threads/what-are-the-rough-bark-cultivars.101167/

Here is the up to date link https://forums.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/threads/what-are-the-rough-bark-cultivars.101167

 

[DaveStillwell]

We've had issues with the Nishiki gawa's not having a consistent rough-bark texture. - they sometimes have areas of rough bark interspersed with areas of smooth bark. For that reason, we no longer grow them and instead focus only on IBO nishiki.