New to Bonsai in Brooklyn NY

[Fribe]

Apartment Bonsai

The purpose of this thread is to brainstorm the title. Let's not let lack of space determine our ability to PUT STUFF OUTSIDE! My windowsills are 5inches wide. So I made my pots as such. My sills. L-R Semi cascade Buckthorn. Ground cover that leapt to the next pot. Next pot. Ulmus "layer at...

www.bonsainut.com

Search balcony. We had another Brooklyn feller a while back. Search 11th floor too.

Sorce

Will do thanks!

 

[CovertNeo]

Welcome, @Fribe! Use species native to your area. That is the best advice that was given to me. Hope you have a plan in mind for when they go dormant and the NY weather gets extreme cold. Consider wind barrier if your balcony gets quite windy. Enjoy the journey and you won’t stop learning!

 

[Forsoothe!]

There is a problem with USDA growing zones as guides to handling plants in winter. It is a guide to average temps which is useful, but just a shorthand, single factor. The zone portion is more useful as a guide than the low temperature included is as a guide. Many other factors enter the equation, like exposure to wind; protection that allows temps on "nice" days to get much higher than the outdoors air, as in a garage; moisture content of the soil; length and dept of cold; ground-covers like Periwinkle and snow cover; all of which contribute to the biggie: micro climate. The woody parts of the tree in the air can take much lower temps than the roots. The fleshier the roots, the more susceptible they are to freeze damage. Trees that grow close to the tree line up north and and on mountainsides are stringy, dry and tough, more like wood than lowland trees. Trees in pots have their roots exposed to the same temperatures as the air. The ground is much slower to change temperature than the air.

Wind effects come in a variety from minor to major. In the backyard of a city lot where other houses, garages, sheds, fences, porches, shrubbery, trees, et all, get in the way of winds, the ground level wind is foiled and has little effect. Out in farmland where nothing blocks the wind the ground can get 20°F lower, sooner in winter, and stay that way longer. Think in terms of chill factor. Where I am in 6b SE Michigan, that often means the difference between the high twenties, ~29, 30, 31 in the first few inches to the teens two feet or more deep. The difference is night and day. Species that can take 5 or 10°F in Texas easily parish in Michigan at 20°F because that low in Texas is just a couple days and the ground is drier. In Michigan air temps under 20 for a month at a time is typical and freezing for 4 or 5 months is, too.

Cycling between day and night temps can be real murder, especially in spring after plants have satisfied the time requirement for dormancy. Dormancy is broken by the number of days under 35°F, or a little lower for some species. When conditions permit after that amount of time is satisfied, they grow. Sunny days in a garage can be quite pleasant and the plant begins to leaf out, even in a dark corner. New leaves must have sunlight and produce food to be used by other parts of the plant, or their sap supplies are cut off by the roots. This is the natural effects of "shedding" parts of the plant that does not get good/adequate sunlight, like low interior branches on a tree. All the primary and secondary buds set the prior autumn will leaf-out and those that do not produce are abandoned in favor of those in better positions that get better light. That's only half the problem of protected wintering. The leaves that do survive long enough to go outdoors are acclimated to filtered light and get crispyized if put into direct sun. They have to be gradually introduced to outdoors light. It's not as easy as it sounds. Plants in garages don't get moisture unless someone waters them. Too dry is a killer just as too wet is.

A balcony in Brooklyn can be sunny and really cold at night, or just extra cold the whole winter. It's hard to guess which is worse. If you make a box that has some insulating qualities, like a box inside another box where the outer box has holes on the dark side that allows heat of day to escape and not warm the inner box, ~too much~, that would be better than nothing for hardier trees, but you still have the "starting too early" in spring problem to monitor and solve. Another problem with "starting too early" is false spring where it gets pleasant for a few days or a week or ten days in March and then goes to Hell in a handbag for another 4 or 6 weeks. Plant buds swell and just as they are to open, freezing temps for many nights. Not unusual.

You can beat the game, but you have to have good players and monitor conditions tightly.

 

[canoeguide]

The leaves that do survive long enough to go outdoors are acclimated to filtered light and get crispyized...

That's a new term for me! Great write up!

 

[Fribe]

There is a problem with USDA growing zones as guides to handling plants in winter. It is a guide to average temps which is useful, but just a shorthand, single factor. The zone portion is more useful as a guide than the low temperature included is as a guide. Many other factors enter the equation, like exposure to wind; protection that allows temps on "nice" days to get much higher than the outdoors air, as in a garage; moisture content of the soil; length and dept of cold; ground-covers like Periwinkle and snow cover; all of which contribute to the biggie: micro climate. The woody parts of the tree in the air can take much lower temps than the roots. The fleshier the roots, the more susceptible they are to freeze damage. Trees that grow close to the tree line up north and and on mountainsides are stringy, dry and tough, more like wood than lowland trees. Trees in pots have their roots exposed to the same temperatures as the air. The ground is much slower to change temperature than the air.

Wind effects come in a variety from minor to major. In the backyard of a city lot where other houses, garages, sheds, fences, porches, shrubbery, trees, et all, get in the way of winds, the ground level wind is foiled and has little effect. Out in farmland where nothing blocks the wind the ground can get 20°F lower, sooner in winter, and stay that way longer. Think in terms of chill factor. Where I am in 6b SE Michigan, that often means the difference between the high twenties, ~29, 30, 31 in the first few inches to the teens two feet or more deep. The difference is night and day. Species that can take 5 or 10°F in Texas easily parish in Michigan at 20°F because that low in Texas is just a couple days and the ground is drier. In Michigan air temps under 20 for a month at a time is typical and freezing for 4 or 5 months is, too.

Cycling between day and night temps can be real murder, especially in spring after plants have satisfied the time requirement for dormancy. Dormancy is broken by the number of days under 35°F, or a little lower for some species. When conditions permit after that amount of time is satisfied, they grow. Sunny days in a garage can be quite pleasant and the plant begins to leaf out, even in a dark corner. New leaves must have sunlight and produce food to be used by other parts of the plant, or their sap supplies are cut off by the roots. This is the natural effects of "shedding" parts of the plant that does not get good/adequate sunlight, like low interior branches on a tree. All the primary and secondary buds set the prior autumn will leaf-out and those that do not produce are abandoned in favor of those in better positions that get better light. That's only half the problem of protected wintering. The leaves that do survive long enough to go outdoors are acclimated to filtered light and get crispyized if put into direct sun. They have to be gradually introduced to outdoors light. It's not as easy as it sounds. Plants in garages don't get moisture unless someone waters them. Too dry is a killer just as too wet is.

A balcony in Brooklyn can be sunny and really cold at night, or just extra cold the whole winter. It's hard to guess which is worse. If you make a box that has some insulating qualities, like a box inside another box where the outer box has holes on the dark side that allows heat of day to escape and not warm the inner box, ~too much~, that would be better than nothing for hardier trees, but you still have the "starting too early" in spring problem to monitor and solve. Another problem with "starting too early" is false spring where it gets pleasant for a few days or a week or ten days in March and then goes to Hell in a handbag for another 4 or 6 weeks. Plant buds swell and just as they are to open, freezing temps for many nights. Not unusual.

You can beat the game, but you have to have good players and monitor conditions tightly.

Thanks for your detailed explanation...I read it few times cause it's a lot to process.

As you were explaining my main concern is wind, cause I live right next to the Brooklyn bridge.
Following is my setup: where you see the black bookcase is where I get the most light as well as more wind ( the sun rises pretty much in front of it in the opposite direction). The other picture is the opposite side of the balcony facing south-east.
On the right of the pic with the bookshelf is where the balcony has the fence, I'd say 12/14feet long by 4feet wide.


Any suggestions on position?
Appreciate!

 

[Forsoothe!]

This is protection suitable for Carolinian zone plants. You have room to build a collapsible unit like this that would butt up against your window and the fence (softly jammed between the two for stability). The unit below has Rmax R-Matte Plus-3, 1/2 in. x 4 ft. x 8 ft. R-3.2 Polyisocyanurate Rigid Foam Insulation Board glued to the thicker panel of Styrofoam (as below specified) to achieve weather-ability with the skin of aluminum foil. The bricks on top prevent the wind from disassembling the whole unit. You should probably keep your top lower than the fence rail.

It has inner supports that are pitched for shedding snow loads. You could tip your two end tables up on end and have enough height inside to house pretty tall trees. You can buy FOAMULAR 250, 2 in. x 48 in. x 8 ft. R-10 Scored Squared Edge Insulation Sheathing at big box stores. The big box stores will cut these to your size spec's.

This one has an outside corner glued in-place (for stability) but you don't need that if you jam yours, softly, between the fence & doorwall window. Use 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" strips of fiberglass insulation between the square ends of the styrofoam panels and the irregular surface of the wall/window to prevent air gaps. The biggest concerns for you are what will the landlord allow and what, how & where you can store these flat panels when not in use. Your size may be dictated by what will fit inside the size of a closet.

You will need to water every 3 or 4 weeks, smaller vessels may need more attention. In later spring and even in nice periods of early spring you can remove the top and let the sun in, because you can close it when the weather turns typical again. Clever positioning and a long-necked sprinkling-can will accomplish the watering. All this is do-able on any scale you live with.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

If you only have a few trees, you can set them inside cheap styrofoam beer coolers. They do not seal as air tight as a Coleman or other heavy duty camping cooler. I have added a couple partially full plastic water bottles (2 liter soda bottles) to add thermal mass. The water in the bottle freezes, then keeps the tree cold and frozen on a sunny winter day. The slower the freeze-thaw cycling, the better. But zone 7b is not that cold. Some trees can be left where they grow all year round, fully exposed to the elements.

@EddyFern gave you a great starting list. - I'm in zone 5b, and a firm believer in leave it where it lays. (back trouble has me trying to not move trees around). I leave my eastern hemlock (Tsuga canadensis) on the bench, exposed, where it grows winter and summer. I rotate it, to keep it from getting lopsided, I don't move it. Mugo pines, I don't move mine either. In 7b you should have zero trouble with mugo. No need for fancy winter shelter. Just leave it where it was all summer.

Another species I have found amazingly hardy is Metasequoia glyptiodes - the Dawn redwood. Much more winter hardy than bald cypress, similar look as bonsai.

Amelanchier - any species or hybrid serviceberry is super winter hardy. Often sold in nurseries as landscape material, I never move mine. Hardy into zone 4a or 3b. Nice white flowers, bonsai techniques pretty much same as its cousin the apples, Malus.

Malus - most flowering crab apples are quite winter hardy. I leave mine out in a large 3 gallon nursery pot growing out to size up, it does not get moved from summer to winter. Hardy through zone 4.

Amur maple - Acer ginnala - super hardy. I don't need to protect it in winter at all. No fancy box needed. Japanese maple will probably need wind protection, Amur maple will not. Good reds and yellows in autumn.

But meet up with Eddyfern and see how he winters his trees.

 

[GroveBonsai]

I didn’t have many trees last year. Two yews and a small juniper. I initially built a large wooden box around the pots and filled them with mulch. To create a buffer for the roots and temperatures. They survived no problem. I live between two hills so wind isn’t a huge problem for me usually. Here’s a picture before i added the mulch.

Since then i have commandeered the unheated sunroom that doubles as our guest room. It stays about 38-42*. We can’t have guests from January- March. unless they want to sleep in a cold room surrounded by trees.

 

[Fribe]

If you only have a few trees, you can set them inside cheap styrofoam beer coolers. They do not seal as air tight as a Coleman or other heavy duty camping cooler. I have added a couple partially full plastic water bottles (2 liter soda bottles) to add thermal mass. The water in the bottle freezes, then keeps the tree cold and frozen on a sunny winter day. The slower the freeze-thaw cycling, the better. But zone 7b is not that cold. Some trees can be left where they grow all year round, fully exposed to the elements.

@EddyFern gave you a great starting list. - I'm in zone 5b, and a firm believer in leave it where it lays. (back trouble has me trying to not move trees around). I leave my eastern hemlock (Tsuga canadensis) on the bench, exposed, where it grows winter and summer. I rotate it, to keep it from getting lopsided, I don't move it. Mugo pines, I don't move mine either. In 7b you should have zero trouble with mugo. No need for fancy winter shelter. Just leave it where it was all summer.

Another species I have found amazingly hardy is Metasequoia glyptiodes - the Dawn redwood. Much more winter hardy than bald cypress, similar look as bonsai.

Amelanchier - any species or hybrid serviceberry is super winter hardy. Often sold in nurseries as landscape material, I never move mine. Hardy into zone 4a or 3b. Nice white flowers, bonsai techniques pretty much same as its cousin the apples, Malus.

Malus - most flowering crab apples are quite winter hardy. I leave mine out in a large 3 gallon nursery pot growing out to size up, it does not get moved from summer to winter. Hardy through zone 4.

Amur maple - Acer ginnala - super hardy. I don't need to protect it in winter at all. No fancy box needed. Japanese maple will probably need wind protection, Amur maple will not. Good reds and yellows in autumn.

But meet up with Eddyfern and see how he winters his trees.

Hey thanks a lot!
So if I were to get any of winter hardy species I'd just need to protect them from the wind in the winter? I live on the 3rd floor and it gets very windy in here. Also usually we have a month straight below 35F , would that be a problem?

 

[Sansui]

I didn’t have many trees last year. Two yews and a small juniper. I initially built a large wooden box around the pots and filled them with mulch. To create a buffer for the roots and temperatures. They survived no problem. I live between two hills so wind isn’t a huge problem for me usually. Here’s a picture before i added the mulch.

Since then i have commandeered the unheated sunroom that doubles as our guest room. It stays about 38-42*. We can’t have guests from January- March. unless they want to sleep in a cold room surrounded by trees. View attachment 261840View attachment 261841

Nice work EddyFern! Food for thought. Your guest room can become the first ever B,B&B. Bonsai, Bed & Breakfast.

 

[Fribe]

So I was in the woods hicking and got few seedlings...I know it's not the right time for collecting as far as what I've read.


I believe they are white pines, a cedar, and hemlock, but I could be totally wrong.

What are the chances of survival?
Also any idea on the soil mix most appropriate for those spicies?
Thanks

 

[Forsoothe!]

Hey thanks a lot!
So if I were to get any of winter hardy species I'd just need to protect them from the wind in the winter? I live on the 3rd floor and it gets very windy in here. Also usually we have a month straight below 35F , would that be a problem?

35°F is a cakewalk. Just don't let them get too dry.

 

[Fribe]

Appreciate man

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Hey thanks a lot!
So if I were to get any of winter hardy species I'd just need to protect them from the wind in the winter? I live on the 3rd floor and it gets very windy in here. Also usually we have a month straight below 35F , would that be a problem?

Your are zone 7b, any zone 5 would need little or no protection. Yes, a wind break is all you would need if the tree is hardy one or two zones colder than your area. You would only need thermal protection (coolers, cold frames, etc) for trees that are zone 7 or warmer climate trees. So by limiting the balcony collection to cold climate trees, you only need a little wind protection. But check with your neighbor, I don't live in your climate, so I don't have direct experience with your winter.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

EWP - eastern white pine - Pinus strobus - definitely hardy through zone 4, you should have no trouble. Even ecotypes from the warmer parts of its range, like your neighborhood, have proven hardy when seedlings were moved around in reforestation projects. No problem with hardiness. However, eastern white pine has a mediocre record as a bonsai tree. When space becomes a premium, you will probably want to move these on in favor of better material.

Cedar - white cedar - Thuja occidentalis - excellent for bonsai, underutilized in most of the USA. Much appreciated in Canada. Next trip to the woods, get more of these and forget about EWP. Very cold tolerant, you should have no trouble. That is a very small seedling. Next time try to find larger ones.

Hemlock - eastern or Canadian hemlock - Tsuga canadensis - good for bonsai. Only flaw is that it takes many decades to develop a rough bark. So just plan on smooth bark for the time being. Very cold hardy, good bonsai.

 

[Fribe]

EWP - eastern white pine - Pinus strobus - definitely hardy through zone 4, you should have no trouble. Even ecotypes from the warmer parts of its range, like your neighborhood, have proven hardy when seedlings were moved around in reforestation projects. No problem with hardiness. However, eastern white pine has a mediocre record as a bonsai tree. When space becomes a premium, you will probably want to move these on in favor of better material.

Cedar - white cedar - Thuja occidentalis - excellent for bonsai, underutilized in most of the USA. Much appreciated in Canada. Next trip to the woods, get more of these and forget about EWP. Very cold tolerant, you should have no trouble. That is a very small seedling. Next time try to find larger ones.

Hemlock - eastern or Canadian hemlock - Tsuga canadensis - good for bonsai. Only flaw is that it takes many decades to develop a rough bark. So just plan on smooth bark for the time being. Very cold hardy, good bonsai.

Damn you are awesome! There were many bigger cedars, however I was excavating bare handed so that's all I could take.
Inextricably trip should be in a couple of weeks and I'll be more prepared.
Would you have any recommendation on soil to be used? I was planning on buying DE, lava rock , and pumice and do a 30% DE, 40% lava, and 30% pumice.
Thanks a lot again!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Your soil mix should work.