Mirai new nutrition concepts

[pandacular]

I thought it was said that Mirai was going to offer the specific products once the routine was better established? With the costs of the tests, even discounted for bulk, I have a hard time believing Mirai would make very much money off of this process. I tend to believe that they are doing it to advance the practice.

it’ll be in the mythical app

 

[pandacular]

This is absolutely the sort of things we should be doing for the high art of bonsai, for legacy trees and other culturally important pieces, but perhaps less so for the common gardener.

i’m glad i said this and then immediately @IzzyG—the prototypical not-your-common-gardener—popped in. Thanks for the context Izzy! i hope we’re correct that this can lead to a more synthesized system for everyone.

 

[Colorado]

What’s next putting a tree into a CT-Scan?

 

[BobbyLane]

"Just because a fertilizer off the shelf is "balanced" (ie, 5-5-5 NPK) doesn't mean our trees are balanced on the inside, even if they're green and growing well. "A tree could look healthy on the outside but that doesn't mean it's healthy on the inside." That's why we're having to spray insecticide and fungicide more and more. A truly healthy tree could have up to 95% resistance without the need of spraying anything.
Also, most fertilizers sold in stores mostly contain the NPK and other trace elements, but are missing one of the most important nutrient: Calcium. In Ryan's testing of his trees at Mirai, he mentioned 199 out of 200 trees were calcium deficient."

Isnt that why we dont just use one type of fertiliser or tonic, we use different ones which have different ratios/trace elements in, to mix things up a bit. I dont only use tomatoe feed on my trees I also use miracle grow. I dont just use sea weed, I use fish emulsion too and fish/blood/bone granules.
If youre spraying insecticide and fungicide more and more, maybe its because you got more trees

 

[Maiden69]

Even if they are, I'm sure you could buy as well from Apical... and if they only sell through Mirai for a while, so what? Ryan is financing all this research as far as I know, why would he not make a profit out of it? I mean that is what 99% of the world do in the business/research/medical field. The pony up the money for the research, if the research tanks they take a loss, in this case the research is paying off on their trees. What do people want? Have Ryan declare a socialistic state and provide everything free or at cost?

blah...

 

[Colorado]

Let’s not forget that the jury is still out on this. He’s been doing it for what, 2 years?

I am not (yet) convinced…

 

[rockm]

Ah… looks like the ever present suspicion and quest for the ultimate transparency? …

Perhaps a question that might be more on point would be,

“Is Bonsai Mirai getting a future or present financial return, or other considerations, by endorsing the Apical process and helping Apical increase their bonsai clientele, as well as the sale of Apical or Eden Solutions products and services?”

This is a valid question to ask Bonsai Mirai.

Personally if these techniques work and are reasonable in price, I would be totally fine with this.

Cheers
DSD sends

Suspicion is a loaded word that implies wrongdoing. I am certainly not implying wrongdoing by anyone. That would be silly.

What I am is a skeptical consumer and yeah, if there is a relationship, transparency couldn't hurt. I wouldn't care if there was a relationship, if what's being sold works.

 

[Shogun610]

I feel like other than fertilizing using solid or granule for me and at the studio are enough… water is a big part as well (oxygen/ water ratio/ holding capacity/ cation exchange), and the soil composition.. photosynthesis should take care of the rest.. seems just like another cash grab to further isolate and make high level bonsai even more unattainable to average joes ..

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I mean that is what 99% of the world do in the business/research/medical field.

I don't think that that's true. As a researcher myself, we tend to have spent our "primary financial stream" before Q2 and then do the rest of the research on government funding or grants.. Or we have to get creative by redirecting funds.
As far as I know, there is just one university in my country making a profit, by providing services unrelated to research.
Usually research oriented businesses, as well as the medical field, first make a profit by borrowing something like a technique and make a bunch of money out of it and then start researching with the money they earned. It's very rare that it's ever the other way around as it'd be quite difficult to pay for something if you have no money.

I believe this whole apical system is nice to have. But as others have said; if my plants are doing fine and I have the skills to diagnose deficiencies myself.. I don't see the need to adopt a more complex system.
Good is good enough for me.

I've tried the probio carbon stuff and I can't say I'm very much convinced that it makes as much of a difference as the label says. On the contrary in some cases even. I mean, it's cool that Ryan dives into new territory and tries to use science to his advantage! It can and will lead to something awesome and I have no issues with him or mirai earning money with it. But again, as long as there's nothing wrong with my plants and it takes me zero effort and zero money to keep it that way, I don't feel the need to change that. I know Ryan as a preacher and an advocate, someone with limitless enthusiasm that he easily transfers. That's a gift. And even though I think that that's awesome, I do take his words with heaps of salt nowadays.

 

[Maiden69]

As far as I know, there is just one university in my country making a profit, by providing services unrelated to research.

Big reason why there... depending on the research, they get help here, but most of the time you are going to have to start on your own before you can get the investors attention.

Who is going to invest in a better nutrition system for a bonsai nursery?

 

[IzzyG]

i’m glad i said this and then immediately @IzzyG—the prototypical not-your-common-gardener—popped in. Thanks for the context Izzy! i hope we’re correct that this can lead to a more synthesized system for everyone.

In almost every field, we've witnessed "trailblazers" or "firsts" that pushes the limit to what we know/do. Whether we are talking about car technology, space travel technology or agricultural nutrition. These efforts are not always successful. In fact, there's most definitely more failures than successes. We just tend to only hear/celebrate/idolize the successful ones. However, when these "firsts" are successful in learning/creating/executing new limits, WE ALL BENEFIT. In some form or another, we see a trickle down effect. It happens with your road going car from Formula 1 work, to your mattress and pillows from NASA/space travel. The reality is, pushing boundaries also only happen at the very upper echelon of a field and that is no different in bonsai. But, I still believe that once the dust settles, WE ALL BENEFIT.

I feel like other than fertilizing using solid or granule for me and at the studio are enough… water is a big part as well (oxygen/ water ratio/ holding capacity/ cation exchange), and the soil composition.. photosynthesis should take care of the rest.. seems just like another cash grab to further isolate and make high level bonsai even more unattainable to average joes ..

No one is saying that whatever the current protocol someone is using is bad. This is just a new frontier that someone is adventuring into. And in all honesty, the highest level of bonsai/mathematics/physics/racing/(insert whatever) tends to be unattainable for average joes in general. It's not an effort to be exclusive, it's just a matter of resource(time, money, energy).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to improve/elevate an idea/hobby/field. This is my personal belief: whenever I see a person/entity/organization push the envelope on a field/profession/idea/passion that I believe in, I don't react from a point of envy, hate, question, worry or any sort of negative connotation. Instead, if I truly believe in that field/profession/idea/passion, I want to support that effort in any way that I can. If SpaceX wants to push the technology on space travel so that we can all be space tourists? Let's go! If Lamborghini wants to manufacture a 1200hp V12 hybrid to showcase their best version of a supercar? Sign me up as a fan! If Ryan wants to pursue a different approach aesthetically/horticulturally/nutritionally for bonsai so that overall bonsai in America improves? I'm already in. In all three cases, I(even as an average Joe) will have something to gain. A rising tide lifts all ships.

 

[Shogun610]

In almost every field, we've witnessed "trailblazers" or "firsts" that pushes the limit to what we know/do. Whether we are talking about car technology, space travel technology or agricultural nutrition. These efforts are not always successful. In fact, there's most definitely more failures than successes. We just tend to only hear/celebrate/idolize the successful ones. However, when these "firsts" are successful in learning/creating/executing new limits, WE ALL BENEFIT. In some form or another, we see a trickle down effect. It happens with your road going car from Formula 1 work, to your mattress and pillows from NASA/space travel. The reality is, pushing boundaries also only happen at the very upper echelon of a field and that is no different in bonsai. But, I still believe that once the dust settles, WE ALL BENEFIT.


No one is saying that whatever the current protocol someone is using is bad. This is just a new frontier that someone is adventuring into. And in all honesty, the highest level of bonsai/mathematics/physics/racing/(insert whatever) tends to be unattainable for average joes in general. It's not an effort to be exclusive, it's just a matter of resource(time, money, energy).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to improve/elevate an idea/hobby/field. This is my personal belief: whenever I see a person/entity/organization push the envelope on a field/profession/idea/passion that I believe in, I don't react from a point of envy, hate, question, worry or any sort of negative connotation. Instead, if I truly believe in that field/profession/idea/passion, I want to support that effort in any way that I can. If SpaceX wants to push the technology on space travel so that we can all be space tourists? Let's go! If Lamborghini wants to manufacture a 1200hp V12 hybrid to showcase their best version of a supercar? Sign me up as a fan! If Ryan wants to pursue a different approach aesthetically/horticulturally/nutritionally for bonsai so that overall bonsai in America improves? I'm already in. In all three cases, I(even as an average Joe) will have something to gain. A rising tide lifts all ships.

nah , it’s egotistical measuring contest when you get people who bastardize and take advantage of the art making it a rich man’s passion.. the art itself will be remembered, not the man. Just because you don’t have a lot of money doesn’t mean you cant be at a high level of bonsai , there’s a limit to where someone with a finite budget should focus on, it just seems in my opinion that this is just a totally unnecessary waste and further impedes on access to high level of Bonsai … if Mirai wants to test it out .. great… but nature will win in the end and always be the best course of action , humans always have to intervene more than necessary because of the ego and their internal struggle with mortality

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

nah , it’s egotistical measuring contest when you get people who bastardize and take advantage of the art making it a rich man’s passion.. the art itself will be remembered, not the man.

Bonsai was a rich person’s hobby for years, in fact only shoguns and direct vassals could keep bonsai for quite awhile. (In fact it was the landscaper/gardeners whp did a good deal of the work aka Ihei Ito)

Nowadays the higher levels of the hobby either require significant funds to participate or extreme dedication over the years. The latter niche is where many of us reside. (Of course this is my opinion)

Just because you don’t have a lot of money doesn’t mean you cant be at a high level of bonsai , there’s a limit to where someone with a finite budget should focus on, it just seems in my opinion that this is just a totally unnecessary waste and further impedes on access to high level of Bonsai … if Mirai wants to test it out .. great… but nature will win in the end

Actually the work BM is doing with Apical is an effort to use natural ingredients to aid a tree’s natural processes. The money is being spent to cover the cost of converting from the “Better bonsai through Chemistry” model to the ”Letting a tree grow the best it can be” model.

Perhaps a question that might be more on point would be,

“Is Bonsai Mirai getting a future or present financial return, or other considerations, by endorsing the Apical process and helping Apical increase their bonsai clientele, as well as the sale of Apical or Eden Solutions products and services?”

… and indeed this question was asked to Bonsai Mirai…. Here’s their answer posted 12:55 pst today

“Mirai has not yet generated any revenue through its collaboration with Apical; our investment has primarily been driven by our strong belief in their work.

We remain committed to this partnership with the hope that it will yield financial returns in the future.

Thus far, our promotional efforts have been motivated solely by our passion and excitement for the remarkable improvements in garden health that we've witnessed since embarking on this collaboration. “

Hope this helps

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[pandacular]

Always blows my mind that people assume ulterior motives with Ryan Neil. He's an incredibly passionate dude and a champion of a lot of great things in bonsai.

Reminds of the time he made a joke about him endorsing (i.e., saying it worked well for him) a brand of paper towels, and people assuming he meant he had gotten an endorsement deal.

 

[rockm]

Bonsai was a rich person’s hobby for years, in fact only shoguns and direct vassals could keep bonsai for quite awhile. (In fact it was the landscaper/gardeners whp did a good deal of the work aka Ihei Ito)

Nowadays the higher levels of the hobby either require significant funds to participate or extreme dedication over the years. The latter niche is where many of us reside. (Of course this is my opinion)



Actually the work BM is doing with Apical is an effort to use natural ingredients to aid a tree’s natural processes. The money is being spent to cover the cost of converting from the “Better bonsai through Chemistry” model to the ”Letting a tree grow the best it can be” model.



… and indeed this question was asked to Bonsai Mirai…. Here’s their answer posted 12:55 pst today

“Mirai has not yet generated any revenue through its collaboration with Apical; our investment has primarily been driven by our strong belief in their work.

We remain committed to this partnership with the hope that it will yield financial returns in the future.

Thus far, our promotional efforts have been motivated solely by our passion and excitement for the remarkable improvements in garden health that we've witnessed since embarking on this collaboration. “

Hope this helps

Cheers
DSD sends

Fair enough.

 

[rockm]

Always blows my mind that people assume ulterior motives with Ryan Neil. He's an incredibly passionate dude and a champion of a lot of great things in bonsai.

Reminds of the time he made a joke about him endorsing (i.e., saying it worked well for him) a brand of paper towels, and people assuming he meant he had gotten an endorsement deal.

I was skeptical because a similar revolutionary fertilizing bell has been rung before a while back, not by Ryan, far before his time. Old timers may know what I'm talking about.

 

[pandacular]

I was skeptical because a similar revolutionary fertilizing bell has been rung before a while back, not by Ryan, far before his time. Old timers may know what I'm talking about.

To be clear, I wasn't talking about you. Perfectly reasonable to be wary of advertising, it's another thing to treat it as a scam.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I am jumping into the middle of this without full context. I refuse to pay for access to the various videos on Mirai, and frankly find it difficult to listen to Ryan Neil's often overly wordy "science-y" explanations that are usually good horticulture, but I have occasionally caught glaring mistakes. Now I am human too, I don't fault Ryan, I have typed on line and in my talks make my own fair share of bloopers. Unfortunately for Ryan, his cult like cadre of followers take every utterance from him as gospel. I myself tend to be too wordy, so while I critique Ryan, I am often just as guilty of the very same flaw.

I up until a few years ago owned a blueberry farm, I also lectured across the USA about the how-to's of raising orchids and for 20 years was a distributor of a line of fertilizers manufactured by Greencare. I promoted the "MSU Formulations". a series of fertilizer formulations developed by Michigan State University (MSU) for the potted plant industry designed for growing plants in artificial substrates or synthetic soils (sounds like bonsai fit this category, doesn't it?). Basically these are my "bona fides" to my claim as to knowing something about fertilizer in general even though my bonsai trees are very amateurish.

Fertilizer formulation balanced to the needs of the tree and 99% of vascular plants is:

12 Nitrogen, 1 Phosphorous, 12 to 14 Potassium (K) if N is from Nitrate, 4% if N is from Amino Acids, 10 Calcium, 3 Magnesium, Sulfur about 2, Iron 0.2%, Manganese 0,1%, Zinc 0.1%, Copper 0.04%, Boron and Molybdenum roughly 0.02%
Sulfur is seldom included in fertilizer because it is so widely available either as natural occurring mineral in many soils or as a precipitate in rainfall from air pollution.

Note there is a metabolic cost to plants to absorb nitrogen as nitrate. Nitrate nitrogen metabolism requires a large amount of Potassium (K) which is why fertilizers using nitrates will have a K content nearly equal to the N content. It is more energetically efficient for plants to absorb Nitrogen as Amino Acids or Ammonium ions. No potassium (K) is consumed in absorbing amino acids or ammonium ions. This is why fish emulsion has a low K compared to its N content, it does not need the extra potassium.

A truly "balanced" fertilizer will have roughly the above ratios. There is a tremendous amount of junk science around fertilizer, some of the worst is promoted by the Royal Botanic Gardens at Kew, in the UK. They did some good work for its day in the 1880's and have not updated their information base since. As I said, I have not looked specifically at what Ryan is promoting, but if it deviates significantly from a 12-1-4 with 10-3 cal-mag or a 12-1-12 with a 10-3 cal mag, then he is out of step with current Ag research in the plant physiology.

The good news is that plants are remarkable in their ability to tolerate "less than ideal" nutrient availability. One good rainfall, or a flushing with clear water with no added nutrients and most excesses are washed or flushed away. The most mobile of nutrients is Potassium (K), it is highly soluble, and except in enclosed spaces like a greenhouse, with continuous feeding programs, it is almost impossible to overdose a plant with potassium, because the next rainfall, or flushing with clear water removes any excess. Phosphorous is the most tightly held of the nutrients, one does need to be careful to avoid excess applications of phosphorous, as plants will "hang on to it" whether it is in excess or not.

When I was selling MSU fertilizers, it was in my self interest to promote Nitrate based fertilizers. Now that I am "officially sold out and out of that business" I will admit that for my own plants I prefer to go organic. Soybean cakes, rape seed cakes, fish emulsion, sea weed extract, humic and fulvic acid supplements, these are my main fertilizer components. So far no problems. I do have on hand "blueberry fertilizer" which is entirely ammonium sulfate based with a good does of iron and the micro-nutrients, should I see any chlorosis. But I have not had to drop back to the blueberry formula for the trees or the orchids indoors since "going organic" so far.

 

[ChristianDGreat]

Always blows my mind that people assume ulterior motives with Ryan Neil. He's an incredibly passionate dude and a champion of a lot of great things in bonsai.

Reminds of the time he made a joke about him endorsing (i.e., saying it worked well for him) a brand of paper towels, and people assuming he meant he had gotten an endorsement deal.

This, I like Ryan. We need this kind of experiment to push Bonsai to the next level. Because imagine. What if this stuff works?
If not at least someone really go deep into it and tested it. So for me its a win win.

 

[Glaucus]

The guy from Apical certainly has a lot of knowledge, but some things he said are something that a true chemist would never say. I can't recall from memory, but it anyone is interested, I could look back.
Now, I think this guy's approach is a bit weird. Not sure what the state of agriculture is in the US, but the things he is saying have basically been published 20 to 30 years ago. A bonsai in substrate is basically a form of hydroponics. And hydroponics for many plant species is nearly completely figured out. Yet this guy acts like they are figuring out some new mystery.

If you run a tomato hydroponics system as part of a multi-million dollar business, then every week you test the parameters of your starting water, the parameters of the water you are irrigating with, the parameters of your runoff, the parameters of your plant tissues, both new and old. Why? Because you want to make sure your plant is not deficient. And you also do not want to add too much of one thing. This allows you to find the factor that is minimizing your growth rate.

And yes, it is known that many different nutrients are antagonistic too each other. They talk a lot about calcium and magnesium. All these positive ions compete for uptake. So if your plant is deficient in calcium, then lowering magnesium while keeping calcium constant will definitely move things in the right direction. In general, the key ratio seems to be K+ to Ca2+ to Mg2+, where you should have equal to 2 times as much K+ as Ca2+, and about 2 to 5 times as much Ca2+ to Mg2+
Then another question is about much Nitrogen vs Potassium. And how much of the nitrogen should be nitrate vs ammonia. Some of these ratios are avaible for some species in some soils/substrates.

Of course the tree (and the soil & associated organisms) have evolved to take care of all this automatically. But we are talking optimal growth in a soilless setup.
The complex part is when you start to talk about soil microbes.

On top of that, there is just a big industry of selling more products. Both to consumers and to professionals. Microbes, mycorrhizal fungi, bacillus, pseudomonas, biostimulants, peptides, amino acids, seaweed extract, humic and fulvic. And there is a fair bit of marketing going on there. Commercial growers are spending tens of thousands of dollars buying additiona stuff, hoping it will give them a 5% quality boost.

Now apparently Ryan had some issues growing his trees in his new environment in Oregon vs what he learned worked very well in Japan. Namely in Japan, having the nursery sit inside a concrete desert and using a ton of artificial stuff. Vs him now being in the middle of a forest, trying to work with nature. So this made him try this very science-based approach.

It is very good that they are testing stuff in a lab. But they are also kind of marketing this to the viewers, as if a person with less than 10 bonsai will get their soil and plant tissue tested.
Fundamentally, it makes sense to think about which thing your plant is deficient in. Because yes there's stuff in the soil that may already be bioavalialble to the plant. And then there's stuff you are adding to the soil every time you are watering. So it makes sense to think about what you are not adding. Because indeed a bonsai system can eventually come out of balance if you keep doing the same thing to it.

But as a garden hobbyist grower, be it bonsai or vegetables or whatever, you need a robust no-nonsense approach that you can just apply and it will just work. Not something that requires monthly lab tests and a whol bunch of soil science and chemistry knowledge.


I think a good first step to do some actual sience in this topic would be to establish some optimal growth ratios for say a pine species and an acer species.
And then maybe figure out what exactly happens to akadama in a 3 to 5 year period. Normally soil microbes release things like potassium, phosphate, calcium, magnesium from rock minerals very very slowly. And I believe microbes are responsible.
And if they can figure out if soil microbes actually play a role in a plant potted in akadama, pumice, lava, coarse sand without any soil and organic material.

So I think that they are 33% reinventing the wheel, just for bonsai species, 33% playing around and being confused, and 33% finding out some stuff related to deficient plants that were just not doing well and thus fixing some of Ryan's local and specific issues. It won't at all be some new revolutionary approach that gives one a 20% edge in doing bonsai. But if you have bonsai and a lab, it is just fun to play around as well to see if you can figure out what is happening.
Since this is standard practice in commercial argiculture, it just makes sense for a bonsai professional with a large operation to see if these methods also benefit bonsai.