Larch Seed germination

[SpencerI]

Hello all! I’m still very new to Bonsai and horticulture in general. Last year I purchased and germinated many larch seeds. They didn’t fair well due to poor soil (miracle gro seed starting soil) and only fertilizing a few times. I say they didn’t fair well because I had very minimal growth. I plan to transplant the starts to perlite and coco coir in a few weeks. I was also thinking of using an Anderson flat.

I still have larch seeds left. My plan for this year is to cold stratify the seeds and plant them in a perlite coco coir mixture around the beginning of march.

Can anyone provide feedback on this approach? Or should I just plant the seeds in a few weeks and let nature doing the cold stratifying? Should I use an Anderson flat or will normal pots work?

 

[Berra]

I successfully grew larch from seed a couple of years ago. I put perlite in a pot and planted the seeds, then placed it outdoors during fall and winter. Come spring they sprouted. I had to protect from hungry birds though

 

[RoadManDenDron]

I suspect slow growth could be from restricted growing space, and shared resources

Transplanted to better conditions you are likely to see growth spurts from the same starters

If you have plenty of seeds I like to try different methods so you can see what works best for you. Be sure to keep good notes as it's easy to forget as time goes on!

Best of luck!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Plant seed in a flat placed outdoors in full sun. Larch must have full sun for healthy growth. All larch species are cold climate species, seed flats are often put out in late winter. Seed will sprout fairly early in spring. Cover with wire mesh to keep out birds and squirrels. Sprouting larch seed indoors almost always results in weak and or dead seedlings. Indoors they die of damp off and other diseases.

 

[Shibui]

Seed starting soil is usually very low in nutrients. It is designed to start seedlings that will be transplanted to good potting soil or into the ground. It is not designed for the plants to grow in for an entire year. I suspect you would have had better growth with more regular fertilising. Crowded conditions also has an adverse impact on seedlings growing in community pots/trays.
Surviving seedlings should recover and grow better when they are potted into individual pots and looked after properly.

I'm very much in favour of natural outdoor stratification. Less work, less problems with mould and seeds germinating at the wrong time.
Normal pots are fine for starting seedlings. Deeper pots don't dry out so quickly so less chance of losing seedlings if you forget to water. Roots can always be pruned when you transplant so deeper roots are no problem.

Coir/perlite seed mix also has no nutrients so make sure you fertilise regularly after they germinate.
I find I get much better growth by transplanting seedlings into individual pots soon after germination. Disturbing roots of seedlings does not hurt them.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

I just collected a bunch of seeds from my larch tree today. The cones had opened and the seeds has started to be distributed so the time appeared to be right. I plan on just naturally stratify the seeds in a flat outside with 1/4" hardware cloth on top to keep the pests out as @Leo in N E Illinois said.

My question is, can I plant them now or wait until the cold weather end Oct, early Nov? and if I wait, how should I store the seeds until that time?

 

[dotme]

[snippety..] Be sure to keep good notes as it's easy to forget as time goes on! [..snip]

Naah, I’m sure I’ll remember!

 

[August44]

Naah, I’m sure I’ll remember!

Remember what?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I'd wait until October, or even after first frost. That would guarantee no growth before a hard freeze.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

Seed starting soil is usually very low in nutrients. It is designed to start seedlings that will be transplanted to good potting soil or into the ground. It is not designed for the plants to grow in for an entire year. I suspect you would have had better growth with more regular fertilising. Crowded conditions also has an adverse impact on seedlings growing in community pots/trays.
Surviving seedlings should recover and grow better when they are potted into individual pots and looked after properly.

I'm very much in favour of natural outdoor stratification. Less work, less problems with mould and seeds germinating at the wrong time.
Normal pots are fine for starting seedlings. Deeper pots don't dry out so quickly so less chance of losing seedlings if you forget to water. Roots can always be pruned when you transplant so deeper roots are no problem.

Coir/perlite seed mix also has no nutrients so make sure you fertilise regularly after they germinate.
I find I get much better growth by transplanting seedlings into individual pots soon after germination. Disturbing roots of seedlings does not hurt them.

How soon after germination can I move them to 4" pots? and do they deal well with removing the tap root at that point as well?

 

[JeffS73]

You can do a bunch of things with larch. You can do the seedling cutting method as per pines. They're very sensitive to root hormone. This will give you some basal flare, but usually larch push a dominant root that gets really fat. I've found they can be layered quite easily, and this will fix a dominant root, and create a new nebari. Or you can remove that root, or split it, etc. Another option is skip root cutting, grow out the trunk, then layer. They all work.

 

[Shibui]

I have not had much experience with larch. They do not do well in our hot Summers so I've never grown seedlings.
In general, seedlings can be potted up any time but we generally allow them to get big enough to handle. Generally do not need to stick with the usual repotting timing when working with seedlings. They seem to be programmed to grow new roots much more than mature plants. I have not yet found a species that cannot tolerate tap root removal as young seedlings. Even species that are normally difficult to strike as cuttings can grow new roots when root pruned as seedlings so, at first transplant, I chop tap roots of all seedlings destined for bonsai.

For the first few weeks after germination, most seedlings will only have a single radicle (tap root). The root can be snipped and new laterals will soon develop just above the cut end.
From 2-6 weeks many species will begin to develop lateral roots somewhere on the radicle. At this stage I usually cut just below a suitable cluster of laterals which will become the nebari but most species can still cope with cutting the radicle above the developing lateral roots if they seem to deep. There does seem to be more of a setback when cutting harder like that but the vast majority of seedlings survive.

If in doubt, try doing some of your seedlings one way and use another technique on others to insure against total failure and to see if you can spot any differences.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

You can do a bunch of things with larch. You can do the seedling cutting method as per pines. They're very sensitive to root hormone. This will give you some basal flare, but usually larch push a dominant root that gets really fat. I've found they can be layered quite easily, and this will fix a dominant root, and create a new nebari. Or you can remove that root, or split it, etc. Another option is skip root cutting, grow out the trunk, then layer. They all work.

I'm not sure what your referring to when you say the "seedling cutting method as per Pines"?

I have had minimal success with Air layering Larch, hence why I've gone to growing from seed.

 

[JeffS73]

There's a (now) often used method for getting radial roots on pine seedlings. If you search "pine seedling cutting" here, or Google or bonsai tonight for example, you will find a description. Interesting that layering failed. I've had success with japanese and European cultivars, but that was ground layering.

 

[pweifan]

There's a (now) often used method for getting radial roots on pine seedlings. If you search "pine seedling cutting" here, or Google or bonsai tonight for example, you will find a description. Interesting that layering failed. I've had success with japanese and European cultivars, but that was ground layering.

I think this is one of the threads you're talking about? It also contains links to Bonsai Tonight so I felt pretty confident...

Thread 'Seedling cutting technique'

Nov 19, 2014

Jonas Dupuich has written about creating Japanese black pine from seed on his blog. Cutting the roots off completely after sprouting and then developing a new radial nebari to make good future bonsai. Here are a couple articles:

http://bonsaitonight.com/2011/07/01/how-to-create-seedling-cuttings-japanese-black-pine/

Http://bonsaitonight.com/2012/05/25/how-to-pot-pine-seedling-cuttings/


I'm planning on attempting this next spring with some JBP. Has anyone tried it before and if so with other plants besides JBP? I am interested in using it for Japanese and Trident maples.

• KennedyMarx
• Replies: 13
• Forum: Advanced topics

 

[pweifan]

This one has pics of the results:

Post in thread 'JBP seedling/cutting growers competition(Mark Comstock)'

Apr 27, 2019

I have a large group like these from last year. It really slows them down but they grow like hell in year 2, this was cut 3 times. I did about 500 like this. Most of the crop I just cut twice

• kingsville grower

• 
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[Orion_metalhead]

cmeg has great success with seedling cuttings for pines as well.

 

[cmeg1]

cmeg has great success with seedling cuttings for pines as well.

My Larch are germinating great this year.I have a flat of around 700-800!!
I will proceed to do seedling cuttings.I can find no reason these will not make abundant seedling cutting roots like pines do.
This is very exciting.
Larch have a nice look to them.I am excited to push them more vigorous in the co2 fertilization.

I will make the cuttings and fill them tight in the flats a couple hundred a flat and pot up in April into band pots outdoors.

This will be awesome to see the results of an early start indoors.