JBP second flush question

[jeanluc83]

Everything I've read on JBP focuses on forcing a second flush of growth by candle pruning. My JBP seedlings are pushing a second flush without any intervention. Since I'm just starting out with pines I'm curious if this is typical for JBP that are not candle pruned.

 

[markyscott]

Everything I've read on JBP focuses on forcing a second flush of growth by candle pruning. My JBP seedlings are pushing a second flush without any intervention. Since I'm just starting out with pines I'm curious if this is typical for JBP that are not candle pruned.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthr...this-cork-bark-black-pine&p=212048#post212048

Post number 8.

Under the right conditions, black pine can be multinodal. I'm a bit surprised the Connecticut growing season is long enough, but then seedlings are pretty vigorous, especially if you're feeding heavily. It's common here when growth is particularly vigorous and can even happen with decandling.

Scott

 

[garywood]

Jo, this is typical of young, strong trees, congratulations. Keep in mind, all the different techniques you read and see are for specific responses. In general there are techniques for growing, developing and finishing. Applying one when another is needed really slows the process.

 

[jeanluc83]

I'm a bit surprised the Connecticut growing season is long enough, but then seedlings are pretty vigorous, especially if you're feeding heavily.

I am too especially considering the spring here was a few weeks late. They are in full sun and I have been fertilizing heavily. It’s good to know that I’m at least doing something right.

Keep in mind, all the different techniques you read and see are for specific responses. In general there are techniques for growing, developing and finishing. Applying one when another is needed really slows the process.

There seems to be a gap in the information readily found on JBP development. There is lots of info on refinement techniques and a good amount of information on starting seedlings but not much on what to do in between.

The bonsai tonight blog has a lot of great information on pine development. I also have a copy of the Pines book from stone lantern has a section on growing JBP from seed but focuses mostly on refinement. Once I can save up enough milk money I’m going to get a set of the Boon DVDs.

The mode now is lots of sun and fertilizer. In the fall I'll wire.

 

[jeanluc83]

I finely got a picture for those that are interested.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Looks good. When did you sow the seeds?

 

[markyscott]

I am too especially considering the spring here was a few weeks late. They are in full sun and I have been fertilizing heavily. It’s good to know that I’m at least doing something right.



There seems to be a gap in the information readily found on JBP development. There is lots of info on refinement techniques and a good amount of information on starting seedlings but not much on what to do in between.

The bonsai tonight blog has a lot of great information on pine development. I also have a copy of the Pines book from stone lantern has a section on growing JBP from seed but focuses mostly on refinement. Once I can save up enough milk money I’m going to get a set of the Boon DVDs.

The mode now is lots of sun and fertilizer. In the fall I'll wire.

Boon's black pine videos are the best I've seen on seasonal care and maintenance. I recommend them without reservation. However, if you are specifically looking for information on developing young pines, although he does discuss this a bit, his videos may not be exactly what you're looking for.

In addition to the Bonsai Tonight blog, try this:
http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/03/02/sacrifice-branches-black-pine/
http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/07/13/sacrifice-branches-black-pine-part-2/

And Brent Watson's great article:
http://bonsainurseryman.typepad.com/bonsainurseryman/2010/04/a-plan-for-young-pine-material.html

Scott

 

[jeanluc83]

Looks good. When did you sow the seeds?

These were purchased as bare root seedlings. I got 21 of them from Matthew Ouwinga via ebay (ebay id: kaedebonsai-en). He also has a website Kaedebonsai.com and I believe he is a member here. They were all very healthy. I only lost 2.

Scott, thanks for the links. I'm always looking for more info.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

The main purpose of candle pruning is to force back budding and branching (ramification) If you would like branches to form, decandle back to the base of the bare neck of the candle, at the height that you would like the first branches. At the base of the bare neck of a candle, there are adventitious buds, they remain viable for upwards of 5 or more years. If you skipped decandling the previous year, you can go back and decandle to the base of a previous flush or previous year's growth if need be. If you want branching low on your seedling, it is time to cut it back.

If you want your first branches higher up, don't decandle, just let it grow. You get to choose the size with young seedlings like this.

There are other reasons to decandle, different depending on age and development of the tree. But for young seedlings you only decandle when you want to force the creation of branches. If you want a long straight trunk with no branches, don't decandle.

 

[garywood]

I finely got a picture for those that are interested.

Jo, what style tree are you thinking of growing? At this age nothing but growing is in order but
in the coming years technique depends on what the plan is.

 

[jeanluc83]

This year the trees have been left to their own devices. At this point I am focusing on trunk development and gaining strength. I am starting to get a good amount of back budding on the trunk. I am relying on the trees vigor to produce back budding rather than forcing it though pruning.

I am likely to have several styles and sizes based on each tree. It is safe to say that most of them will end up being medium size informal uprights. I may get adventurous and try some other styles but that will depend on the tree. I also might get a couple of shohin trees as I have some trees that have low buds starting to form.

Right now I have a three year plan worked out:
This year:
-Continue to feed heavily
-Wire trunks for shape in the fall

Next year:
-Feed heavily while monitoring the wire

Following year:
-Repot and begin getting the roots in shape
-start thinking about selecting final branches and escape branches

At this point it is mostly just letting them grow.

 

[garywood]

Jo, it seems you've done your homework and have a good plan! Lots of sun, fertilizer, water and time will do wonders. Have fun with them.

 

[prestontolbert]

I also got pines this year from Ouwinga that look exactly like yours right now. I agree, you have a good game plan. Don't cut any candles on trees this young. Keep in mind that in the next few years you will want to decandle the branches you want to keep. If you let the nice low branching get too vigorous, It will outgrow the design of the tree. I got a bunch of pines from him in 2010 and I learned a lot about what to do and what not to do. I planted most of them in the ground right away. I did get massive growth, but at the expense of the roots. I lifted the ground planted pines this spring, and the roots were difficult to deal with, even the ones planted on tiles. The trees that I started in pots (like you are doing) got less growth overall, but the roots were radial, even, and fibrous. All of my pines are in the ground now, but the trees started in pots have much more potential.
-Preston

 

[Jason_mazzy]

I respectfully disagree. I cut about 100 pines this year this young or younger. I got back budding all over the trunk and have much better future tree potential. Unless this tree has all the branches and everything exactly where you want them, then it is sometimes beneficial to do a hard cut and get those young buds to pop.

 

[garywood]

I respectfully disagree. I cut about 100 pines this year this young or younger. I got back budding all over the trunk and have much better future tree potential. Unless this tree has all the branches and everything exactly where you want them, then it is sometimes beneficial to do a hard cut and get those young buds to pop.

Jason, did you save any for comparison?

 

[prestontolbert]

Jason-
If you cut trees younger than this, does that mean you cut seedlings? Also I have found that when you cut them this young you get too many buds. It just takes too much work selecting buds later. Being just over in Hickory, you should swing by my little pine plantation in Troutman!
-Preston

 

[Jason_mazzy]

I'd love to Preston. We can compare some pots while I'm there. I threw a couple this year.


While you may pop a lot of buds I prefer to have a few options early so I can build a trunk and hopefully bypas any reverse taper issues.

I am also currently building shohin pines so my advice may be irrelevant to the OP.

 

[jeanluc83]

I appreciate all the info. I may try to force some back budding next year on some of the more stubborn trees. Is it better to cut just above where the current years growth starts as is done with candle pruning or cut into last years growth?

I included some pictures of the back budding that I am getting. The last picture is tree a whose buds were damaged in the spring. It is interesting to see the difference in growth pattern.

One of my main concerns is that the roots are going to be a mess when I do repot. When I planted them this spring I was tight on time so I was mainly concerned about getting them potted up. I didn't spend the time I should have spreading the roots. I'm hoping that this will not set the tree back significantly.

 

[prestontolbert]

Jean Luc-
The reason I had root issues is because I allowed the trees three years growth in the ground with no rootwork. That is fine if the roots are neatly arranged, but like you, I was in a hurry to just get them in the ground. I got fast growth, but many of those trees may never be good bonsai. If you root prune and arrange the roots at least every other year for the first couple of years, you should be fine. If you do have gnarly, ugly, or knotted roots, consider using the tree for an exposed root style.

This is from last spring when I did rootwork and replanted them in the field. They had been three years in the growing bed. In hindsight, they were too closely spaced.

Also, I think your budding looks great.

-Preston

 

[thumblessprimate1]

One of my main concerns is that the roots are going to be a mess when I do repot. When I planted them this spring I was tight on time so I was mainly concerned about getting them potted up. I didn't spend the time I should have spreading the roots. I'm hoping that this will not set the tree back significantly.

I've worked with some JBP in 1 gallon pots from Green Leaf nursery. They're about 3-4 years old. I never had trouble sorting out the roots, so I don't think you would have any problems.