Clarification on JBP second flush growth handling

[ProfessorFarnsworth]

Decandling timing is something of a dark art! Lol!! Everyone has to figure out what works for them in their particular micro climate, their trees, Their repotting frequency, their watering practices, their fertilization, their sun exposure, temperatures, etc. Many, many factors enter in to it.

I think the moment things started to click for me was when I started to realize that there is no instruction manual that you can just follow. That took me a bit because that's just not how life works now "everything has a manual and generally a right way to do it!" Full sun might not mean full sun when it's 105° was my first lesson on this.

 

[Adair M]

Here is a Shohin JBP that I decandled on (or around) July 14:


The new needles are only 1/4 inch past their sheath. They are still growing, for sure. They have not extended to the outer Silohette yet.

All the last year’s needles are still on the tree, and they were all about 3/4 inch, or less.

Here is a shot taken from directly above the tree. You can see that I have many, many twigs that produced 4 or more new summer candles where I decandled.




I will not attempt to thin the buds until later this fall, after the new shoots have hardened off. At that time, I will also pull the old needles.

The back branch has gotten too long. (It’s the one that is at the top of the second photo. I’ll prune it this fall, and wire one of the secondary branches into the “terminal” position.

My purpose in this post is to show how waiting until later in the summer may be appropriate for your climate. I think many of us get anxious to “do something” when we see those spring candles growing, and decandle too early in the season.

 

[coh]

Here is a Shohin JBP that I decandled on (or around) July 14:

View attachment 327189
The new needles are only 1/4 inch past their sheath. They are still growing, for sure. They have not extended to the outer Silohette yet.

All the last year’s needles are still on the tree, and they were all about 3/4 inch, or less.

Here is a shot taken from directly above the tree. You can see that I have many, many twigs that produced 4 or more new summer candles where I decandled.


View attachment 327193

I will not attempt to thin the buds until later this fall, after the new shoots have hardened off. At that time, I will also pull the old needles.

The back branch has gotten too long. (It’s the one that is at the top of the second photo. I’ll prune it this fall, and wire one of the secondary branches into the “terminal” position.

My purpose in this post is to show how waiting until later in the summer may be appropriate for your climate. I think many of us get anxious to “do something” when we see those spring candles growing, and decandle too early in the season.

Do you leave the old fertilizer on the tree after decandling? Looks like it's still there in the top photo.

 

[Adair M]

Do you leave the old fertilizer on the tree after decandling? Looks like it's still there in the top photo.

I can’t remember. I might have, but it was pretty much used up. I have added more since I decandled. What you’re seeing may be those. I need to add more.

 

[coh]

I can’t remember. I might have, but it was pretty much used up. I have added more since I decandled. What you’re seeing may be those. I need to add more.

Isn't the general recommendation to feed heavily in spring during the first flush, then remove all fertilizer when those candles are removed, and not add more until after the second flush hardens off? I know that's what Ryan teaches, does Boon do it differently? Or have you modified things based on your climate?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

All things considered, I guess I should thin mine out soon....

Depends on the tree, in addition to your zone and the timing of your first decandling. I think people are under the misconception that you should pick a date, and then decandle ALL of your multi-flush pines the same day. The longer you wait, the weaker your second flush will be. If you are earlier in development, you might want to decandle earlier, so your second flush is stronger. If your trees are in final refinement, you want the second flush to be as weak as possible (with super short needles). In the case of exhibition trees in Japan, they often won't show trees two years in a row - because it is too stressful for the tree.

So why does this matter? The sooner you shoot select, the sooner you will send strength to the other shoots. It all depends what you are trying to do. In the case of a leggy pine where you are trying to push strength inwards, earlier is going to be better (perhaps if you plan on pruning inwards to the next branch junction). It is as much an art as a science - it depends on what you are trying to achieve with that tree in that season.

 

[sorce]

The sooner you shoot select, the sooner you will send strength to the other shoots.

I don't believe this is true when we are removing second growth.
I believe this is only true when we remove the first ones. Because internalized energy is pushed to the remaining.

Energy is first internalized, then used again.

So the longer we leave on growth when we are NOT triggering another happening, the stronger the internalized energy, which later goes to the remaining shoots.

It can not be true that removing anything redirects it's own energy.

It removes what internalized energy has left to go to.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

So, if your spring flush is too strong, you should remove secondary candles earlier.

If your spring flush is weak, remove second candles later.

The internalized energy is cycled.

Sorce

 

[Bonsai Nut]

So, if your spring flush is too strong, you should remove secondary candles earlier.

If your spring flush is weak, remove second candles later.

The internalized energy is cycled.

Sorce

You shouldn't think of a tree as having a fixed energy pool that ebbs and flows. Or maybe more importantly - something that impacts all parts of the tree equally. Maybe that is not what you meant, but that is how I read it. There are many developmental functions in a tree that are triggered by absence or presence or buds, or roots, or photosynthetic surfaces, that have nothing (directly) to do with the flow of carbs (which I think of when you say energy). You can drape shade cloth over a branch, blocking sunlight, and the rest of the tree responds with stronger growth, even though you aren't pruning anything and even if the shaded branch doesn't die. You are simply redirecting the strength of the tree. Conversely, in the case of pines, we are very concerned about length of internodes, bud density, and needle length. Perhaps the interior of the tree is weak, and the exterior is strong. Or perhaps the left side is weak, and you want to strengthen it. I always feel (with pines) that I am like the conductor of an orchestra... looking at the tree, evaluating, and trying to decide the best path forward.

I know I should be posting photos of black pines but instead I went out and grabbed a photo of a JWP that I am working on just to illustrate the concept of energy balancing. I had hoped that all of the shoots would be in focus, but alas my camera would not cooperate. However in general you can see that I am trying to keep my outer shoots short (and weak) while the inner shoots I am keeping strong. (BTW it is a variegate JWP so don't worry about the stripes on the needles).

 

[sorce]

You can drape shade cloth over a branch, blocking sunlight, and the rest of the tree responds with stronger growth

How is this not perceived stronger growth because the shaded is weak?

I don't think we can know this.

This is the same as "we make weak parts strong by weakening strong parts".

Sorce

 

[just.wing.it]

Depends on the tree, in addition to your zone and the timing of your first decandling. I think people are under the misconception that you should pick a date, and then decandle ALL of your multi-flush pines the same day. The longer you wait, the weaker your second flush will be. If you are earlier in development, you might want to decandle earlier, so your second flush is stronger. If your trees are in final refinement, you want the second flush to be as weak as possible (with super short needles). In the case of exhibition trees in Japan, they often won't show trees two years in a row - because it is too stressful for the tree.

So why does this matter? The sooner you shoot select, the sooner you will send strength to the other shoots. It all depends what you are trying to do. In the case of a leggy pine where you are trying to push strength inwards, earlier is going to be better (perhaps if you plan on pruning inwards to the next branch junction). It is as much an art as a science - it depends on what you are trying to achieve with that tree in that season.

Thanks, and the truth is, I decandled some parts that I want to keep, hoping to get more interiors going on. There other branches, larger branches that I plan to reduce and/or remove next year....or maybe this winter in some cases.
Far from refinement.

 

[Adair M]

Isn't the general recommendation to feed heavily in spring during the first flush, then remove all fertilizer when those candles are removed, and not add more until after the second flush hardens off? I know that's what Ryan teaches, does Boon do it differently? Or have you modified things based on your climate?

Boon teaches you fertilize in the spring, remove the fertilizer when you decandle, then resume fertilizing about a month later. If the tree is relatively weak, keep the fertilizer on continuously.

Boon studied under Kamiya. Who was known for his JBP. (Kimura is NOT known for his JBP. His specialities are JWP and Shimpaku.)