Japanese Black pine seedling help

[eugenev2]

Hi All,

Need some expert advice on these two pine seedlings. The first i'm wondering whether it is only some sun burn or is it possibly needle cast? The second is concerning me a bit more as the needles have a slight brown tinge, not sure if you can pick it up on the pictures, any ideas what this could be?

 

[eugenev2]

Different angles

 

[Shibui]

Needle cast is quite distinctive with yellow or brown bands ACROSS/AROUND the needles and I don't see any on the needles that are in focus.
Brown tips are likely from over watering or under watering. Only you will know what soil it is in and how much water or dry it has been getting. The soil looks quite odd. What are they planted in and what is on the surface?
Changing foliage colour can also be from nutrient deficiency. What fertilizer and how often?

 

[eugenev2]

Needle cast is quite distinctive with yellow or brown bands ACROSS/AROUND the needles and I don't see any on the needles that are in focus.
Brown tips are likely from over watering or under watering. Only you will know what soil it is in and how much water or dry it has been getting. The soil looks quite odd. What are they planted in and what is on the surface?
Changing foliage colour can also be from nutrient deficiency. What fertilizer and how often?

@Shibui, thanks for the reply. So the two have slightly different soil, the first is a mix of a little bit of bark nuggets, peat, pumice and lava rock in a 20% 40% 40% ratio, the second is straight APL ratio 33% 33% 33%. What you are seeing on top is the organic fertilizer that's broken down (ie more than 3 weeks old now), it is a brand called bio ocean, slow release, recommended every 3 weeks, which i did up until the advent of winter. First one never really looked healthy, second one was my prized little seedling up until recently. I've been attempting to reduce the watering on them as the mix that the first one and its buddies are in retain moisture much longer than the APL of the second one especially now in winter, but i may have been under watering the one in the APL mix

 

[Shibui]

We have found it beneficial to keep fertilising lightly through winter. In mild climates like yours and mine pines never go fully dormant so spring growth is much more vigorous if they have had some nutrients through winter.
The color changes could just be related to winter. Both still look quite good so I would not be getting in a panic just yet.

 

[eugenev2]

Different angles

Repotted these in APL, let's hope they do better now

 

[eugenev2]

Last year's batch was a bit of a flop, between "cooking" the seeds and bird attacks, my hope of getting 10 seedlings went down to 4. And as the above indicated, most did not look super healthy. So trying another batch this year, was worried that i botched this one as well, as it's been about 6 or so weeks since planting them. At least there is 3 hiding in this pic ie not the obvious strong one in the front. Not sure why it's a struggle to grow these from seed here, not sure if it's me (tried to follow pro instructions to the t this time), climate or the quality of seeds, but this batch had twice the number of seeds and seems to be heading for a similar result.

 

[eugenev2]

What a difference a week can make. This one combined with another, we are up to 24 seedlings now. Better results than what i expected, so in a few weeks time. Seedling cuttings experiment will start

 

[eugenev2]

Hi All,
Not sure if anyone might be able to clarify something for me, i was under the impression that "damping off" of japanese black pine seedlings occur when they sit in mostly wet substrate and should be almost impossible when using something like lava, akadama and pumice and a lot of professionals seem to advocate this approach combined with river sand on top. So this year i tried exactly this, but could not find a trustworthy source for river sand so decided to replace this with vermiculite. So the last few weeks i've been noticing some of the seedlings in the above tray look week, some "falling" over, i've attempted to remove the seedlings from the batch in a attempt to hopefully save the tray and inspected a recent seedling i removed's root and it had a brownish discoloration and was "squishy"... which looked like a tell tale sign of root rot. Any idea where i went wrong? Was it the container, its about 1.5 inches? Water has been kept to when the vermiculite on top drys out, which on some days meant once a day, other days it was every second or 3rd day depending on weather.

 

[eugenev2]

Additional note, another tray that has peat and perlite in...the one i expected to have root rot or damping off issue has none yet...so a bit confused here

 

[JEads]

I grow hundreds of pine seedlings per year and I always use your basic garden variety bagged seedling soil (75%peat, 25% fine perlite). So it is tiny particles, and very rich. At this stage of development, I find that to be totally fine for pines. Once they get seedling cut, I switch to a mix with more perlite (50% fine peralite, 50% peat), but still fine particle and much more organic than their final mix. It is only at 1-2 years old do they get a mix more akin to their final mix (75% pumice, 25% compost). And it is only when they are ready to refine that they get their final mix with akadama. (75%larger pumice, 25% akadama.

I would guess that the first tray died of drying out, not dampening off.
hope that helps.

 

[eugenev2]

The seedlings ended growing fairly well. 30 odd germinated out of 100, so not sure what's a good percentage but this has been much better results than before. Only wish i could obtain reliably fresh seeds

 

[eugenev2]

I also did some seedling cuttings experiments...suffice to say i am not doing that again. 2 survivors out of 9

 

[eugenev2]

Hi All,

Need some expert advice on these two pine seedlings. The first i'm wondering whether it is only some sun burn or is it possibly needle cast? The second is concerning me a bit more as the needles have a slight brown tinge, not sure if you can pick it up on the pictures, any ideas what this could be?

Concern was for nothing, these 4 survivors from last year's experiment are growing strong

 

[eugenev2]

No longer a need help on my japanese black pine seedlings thread, but i'm going to update it based on the progress for now.
Not sure what the difference is that resulted in the growth difference, but first picture is probably my strongest 2 year old seedling, versus my strongest 1 year old seedling which is already taller than the 2 year old

 

[Shibui]

I also did some seedling cuttings experiments...suffice to say i am not doing that again. 2 survivors out of 9

With experience and the correct conditions you'll get better rates but I don't bother with seedling cuttings now. Even some seedling cuttings end up with one sided roots. I probably got around 50% good lateral roots, 25% reasonable and 25% poor roots with the seedling cuttings over 3 or 4 years. I get similar results just by trimming the roots hard at transplant and t he trimmed roots take off much quicker though there's probably no real difference after a year or 2.

Not sure what the difference is that resulted in the growth difference, but first picture is probably my strongest 2 year old seedling, versus my strongest 1 year old seedling which is already taller than the 2 year old

Don't confuse tall with good, especially when you are growing for bonsai. Those juvenile needles will all fall off after 12 months leaving a bare trunk. Need to decide if you want the lower trunk to be that long because getting back buds later can be a problem. Those 1 year olds are ripe for chopping. You'll get good back buds while the needles are healthy and the tops can be used as cuttings if you want more pines. Juvenile shoots like this strike well (about as well as seedling cuttings anyway)

The seedlings ended growing fairly well. 30 odd germinated out of 100, so not sure what's a good percentage but this has been much better results than before.

With fresh seed I get close to 95% germination. Seed that's older than maybe 5 years drops off to around 90% and maybe down to 50% after 7 years depending how it has been stored.

 

[eugenev2]

With experience and the correct conditions you'll get better rates but I don't bother with seedling cuttings now. Even some seedling cuttings end up with one sided roots. I probably got around 50% good lateral roots, 25% reasonable and 25% poor roots with the seedling cuttings over 3 or 4 years. I get similar results just by trimming the roots hard at transplant and t he trimmed roots take off much quicker though there's probably no real difference after a year or 2.


Don't confuse tall with good, especially when you are growing for bonsai. Those juvenile needles will all fall off after 12 months leaving a bare trunk. Need to decide if you want the lower trunk to be that long because getting back buds later can be a problem. Those 1 year olds are ripe for chopping. You'll get good back buds while the needles are healthy and the tops can be used as cuttings if you want more pines. Juvenile shoots like this strike well (about as well as seedling cuttings anyway)


With fresh seed I get close to 95% germination. Seed that's older than maybe 5 years drops off to around 90% and maybe down to 50% after 7 years depending how it has been stored.

Yea, not sure if i'll bother with seedling cuttings again, but i guess we'll have to see in a year or more depending on how they develop. But at the moment they are the size of a month or 2 old seedling, tiny, not to mention the initial death rate. I think my first mistake was not following local approaches as well as not having beter equipment.
So i have been considering growing out some of the "failed" trees for garden trees, it will make a nice addition as well as a to possible source of fresh seed. On that topic, do japanese black pines self pollinate or do you require multiple trees?
Having a source of cheaper seed locally would be great as what they cost locally and only getting a 30% germination rate is not a great investment

 

[eugenev2]

So much info in that one post @Shibui, regarding the black pine cuttings, what process do you follow? How low do you cut? Kind of keen on trying this on at least a few of them

 

[Shibui]

On that topic, do japanese black pines self pollinate or do you require multiple trees?

JBP seem to be self fertile. I now have 2 trees in the garden that produce cones but I was still getting viable seed from the first before the new tree matured. They are big trees though and pruning is not an option if you want cones. Cones grow on the tips of candles and then take 18 months to mature. There may be a way to prune part of the tree on a rotating cycle to still get mature cones but also keep it compact. I have not tried that yet.

regarding the black pine cuttings, what process do you follow? How low do you cut? Kind of keen on trying this on at least a few of them

Cut as low as you want provided there's still some needles for new buds to emerge from the rooted stem.
Cuttings with terminal buds seem to strike a bit better than stem cuttings without buds so just the top 5cm or so is good for cutting material.
Strip off lower 2/3 needles as for most cuttings but take care as the stems will be tender at this stage and may break if you are rough while puling the needles.
Dip in striking hormone as for most cuttings.
Use propagating mix and place the cuttings in high humidity. I have auto misting but a dome, plastic bag or cut down plastic soft drink bottle is fine too.
Good light but not direct sun.
I usually get roots in 4-6 weeks and around 90% strike rate.

Some pics will say more than words
Seedlings at around the same stage as yours appear to be. Cut low to get plenty of new shoots right down low in case I want shohin sized pines.

The cuttings

Strip off lower needles

Longer stems can yield 2 cuttings but slightly lower success with no terminal bud (left)

Cuttings set in propagating mix in a community pot.

After a month. Some shoots may begin to grow and roots appear at the bottom of the pot


Results. Some have excellent lateral roots, some have 2 or 3, a few have just 1 rot and a couple have not produced roots yet - they can go back in for a second chance.


I cut roots when transplanting similar to what I do with seedlings. Shortening dominant roots gives better root ramification closer to the trunk, helps strengthen smaller ones and can also promote even more roots.


Good luck with your JBP cuttings.

 

[eugenev2]

First japanese black pine seedling cuttings attempt, lets see how this turns out in 4 to 6 weeks