Is the current bonsai instructional system broken?

[Adair M]

This doesn't make good anchored sense to me....but it seems the only possible path.
View attachment 283512

I'm just gonna start hitting em with a little solder.

Sorce

That’s it. The loop where the thin wire crosses over the heavy wire on the underside anchors it. It’s very solid.

 

[sorce]

The top circle: see how the wire is laid parallel to the larger wire? The end of the little wire on the lower right corner of that circle runs under the twig, comes down under it where we can’t see it, then emerges in the center of the lower yellow circle, and crosses over the twig to the edge of the circle, then down the twig to the end.

The OTHER end, is interesting: from the top circle, it loops under the twig, and crosses over the end of the heavier wire, then comes up next to where the small wire came up, but goes off on the branch to the right.

It’s extremely clever!

It sounds like we need the money shot from the other side!

I'm too coffeed up to follow!

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Ok. It’s still dark out, and it’s raining right now. I’ll get a picture.

Better yet, I’m showing this tree at the Knoxville show this weekend! Come see it in person!

 

[penumbra]

The just do this teaching style is good for beginners

I have found this to be true in multiple disciplines. Certainly in a practice as esoteric as bonsai, like martial arts.

 

[Woocash]

Yes, that’s one piece of wire!

I get ya now! I thought that short bit was a cut end, but the wire goes under the branch. Very cool.

 

[sorce]

I have found this to be true in multiple disciplines. Certainly in a practice as esoteric as bonsai, like martial arts.

Calling anything a discipline implies quite a great bit of "just do".
Change the label to hobby and it takes on a more free, and free-thinking approach, yes?

I think the important part is the length of time someone is subject to the "just do".
Too long and they will spoil and it will become detrimental, especially if retaught by unqualified folks. By unqualified, I mean, unavailable to the student, when it comes time to transition to their deeper understanding.

I think as Americans, who are raised through a shit educational system, we lack an understanding of the need for this follow through.

Also, there is a point in a warriors training, that his enemy, and his surroundings become just as important as the muscle memory tasks the "just do" is engineered to create. This awareness of enemy and surroundings doesn't get translated into any bonsai education.

There is a disconnect there. Going from collecter, high end hobbyist to professional. This is what creates the Eddy current of washed up hacks and 40 year old bonsai virgins. Disease spreads in these currents. Disease that poisons the system.

Wu Revolution Bonsai Courses.

Shaolin Black Bonsai.

The Conscious Wire.

These are the schools we should provide.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

I have found this to be true in multiple disciplines. Certainly in a practice as esoteric as bonsai, like martial arts.

It’s a fine line when teaching. People are there because they “want to learn how to bonsai”. Some don’t care about the science, they just want to make little trees. Some demand to know every little thing before they “believe” you know what you’re talking about.

The thing is, when teaching, you have a limited time. I’ve found that I can tell them that all the science is available for research on the Internet, and I can teach all that, but it takes time. I am only here for a short time, and I think it’s important that you get a chance to see what I do... things that can’t be researched on the Internet... stuff like how I hold my hands when I’m manipulating a branch, how I judge where the nebari should appear, how I anchor wire when applying it... stuff like that.

 

[rockm]

Well this is how it should be. You, as a high end professional, should not be having to teach horticulture. Then, by that extension, you can not easily teach how to convey emotion and artistry either. Van Gogh could no doubt teach how paint, but not how to create his artwork. That would just seem like a monumental waste when he could be creating more art himself. “Those who can not do, teach”, is the usual phrase that comes to mind so maybe that should extend to, “Those who can create beauty, shouldn’t have time for teaching.”

You create the art, create the inspiration, keep showing what people can aspire to. Make your money from selling art. Maybe have an apprentice or two who can then teach as they work their way up to master level, if needs be. Or, have people come to you on a very limited basis from time to time. That is the role of the pro in my eyes, not to be a travelling showman.

Anyone with sufficient experience can teach the fundamentals of bonsai. From my viewpoint, as a beginner (maybe naively) it isn’t complicated. It is not the techniques and horticultural applications which are difficult, it’s almost like a flowchart. When this happens do this, in this situation do that or don’t do that. It is the artistry and nuances which are the difficult and hard to convey parts. That is where pros should make their dough, if they really must teach.

Having people come to your studio might be good for static western art like painting and sculpture. Bonsai is neither. It is, fortunately or unfortunately, an intricate mix of art and horticulture. Both are inextricably linked, can't do one without the other. Creating beautiful bonsai requires understanding both. That knowledge can't be taught all at once.

Also, the "create beauty and they will come" is a pretty risky proposition to base a bonsai business on, especially in a very large country like the U.S. Professionals have to keep their lights on at home and feed their dogs...and pay (maybe) apprentices. You can't really make a living selling high end bonsai "art" (some people doing it--but it's a slog...there is more money in high end bonsai POTS these days in the U.S. than in "masterpiece" trees) Traveling offers a source of more reliable income.

The model of paid, in-person bonsai instruction has a very long history here. There were folks back in the 90's that tried it and failed. Those people were mostly backyard practitioners who got ambitious, but hadn't gotten instruction themselves. There were a handful of Japanese-bonsai trained people, but you had to look hard. The hope these days is that the instructors (ever more of them getting hands-on experience in Japan) can fill the void. Same in the U.K., Europe and even Russia.

There is no accurate flow chart for a tree's development. They aren't all alike, owners aren't all alike and weather (at least here in the U.S.) is a huge factor in developing trees.

 

[sorce]

There is no accurate flow chart for a tree's development.

The idea of the flowing chart is so it doesn't need accuracy, it flows toward the accurate.

I believe this is very creatable.

Same as horticulture and design are linked, our actions toward the trees and their reaction+time are linked, and can always be calculated.

Trees only have one pattern. The flow chart must only echo this pattern.

Sorce

 

[rockm]

The idea of the flowing chart is so it doesn't need accuracy, it flows toward the accurate.

I believe this is very creatable.

Same as horticulture and design are linked, our actions toward the trees and their reaction+time are linked, and can always be calculated.

Trees only have one pattern. The flow chart must only echo this pattern.

Sorce

I don't think so. It would have to be so simple as to be useless. Trees don't have only one pattern. My live oak drops leaves in the spring. My amur maples begin growing in Feb. My azalea is repotted/pruned on a three year cycle.

 

[Woocash]

Calling anything a discipline implies quite a great bit of "just do".
Change the label to hobby and it takes on a more free, and free-thinking approach, yes?

I think the important part is the length of time someone is subject to the "just do".
Too long and they will spoil and it will become detrimental, especially if retaught by unqualified folks. By unqualified, I mean, unavailable to the student, when it comes time to transition to their deeper understanding.

I think as Americans, who are raised through a shit educational system, we lack an understanding of the need for this follow through.

Also, there is a point in a warriors training, that his enemy, and his surroundings become just as important as the muscle memory tasks the "just do" is engineered to create. This awareness of enemy and surroundings doesn't get translated into any bonsai education.

There is a disconnect there. Going from collecter, high end hobbyist to professional. This is what creates the Eddy current of washed up hacks and 40 year old bonsai virgins. Disease spreads in these currents. Disease that poisons the system.

Wu Revolution Bonsai Courses.

Shaolin Black Bonsai.

The Conscious Wire.

These are the schools we should provide.

Sorce

Very true. To be honest, it’s the same over here (I blame the Americans ). Too many quick fixes, skipping over the instructions, too many distractions and looking at things from a position of unwavering over confident ignorance. Our cultures have not set us up for the correct mindset to be good people, let alone good students.

To me, this is why bonsai appeals. To nurture nature is almost an oxymoron in itself in that life will always find a way to break the mould or be unexpected, hence no two trees being the same. If it were predictable and fast it would be boring. I don’t need a life of 50 hobbies, just one good one with incremental progress will do me.

 

[sorce]

If you really wanted to make this thing boring, we could write the equation to the "perfect" tree.

This is possible.

Then we can enter numbers to judge shows.

But seriously, knowing the perfect tree math is, or can be, a useful guide to creating the best material out of what you have.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

I don't think so. It would have to be so simple as to be useless. Trees don't have only one pattern. My live oak drops leaves in the spring. My amur maples begin growing in Feb. My azalea is repotted/pruned on a three year cycle.

Each keeps it's own one pattern. As dictated by the Solsticee and temps.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

just one good one with incremental progress will do me

This is the life long one for sure!

It is nice though, when you round out the education, and begin to combine all the hobbies...

Like a Garden Railroad with Bonsai tree decor, over a bridge spanning the koi pond, thru the chickem coop around the kiln thru the music studio where a soundtrack for this life is being created!

Sorce

 

[rockm]

Each keeps it's own one pattern. As dictated by the Solsticee and temps.

Sorce

not really. This is oversimplification. Solstice has nothing to do with much of anything. Growth has more to do with local soil temperatures and weather. What works for the live oak in the ground in Texas doesn't here in a pot in Va. Same for most everything I have.

Patterns change, sometimes dramatically, sometimes in a couple of days...

BTW, there are flow charts for bonsai development in many many bonsai books. they're nice to look at, but mostly useless in practice, just like advice on digging collected trees that should come up with a nice compact rootball...

 

[Woocash]

Having people come to your studio might be good for static western art like painting and sculpture. Bonsai is neither. It is, fortunately or unfortunately, an intricate mix of art and horticulture. Both are inextricably linked, can't do one without the other. Creating beautiful bonsai requires understanding both. That knowledge can't be taught all at once.

Also, the "create beauty and they will come" is a pretty risky proposition to base a bonsai business on, especially in a very large country like the U.S. Professionals have to keep their lights on at home and feed their dogs...and pay (maybe) apprentices. You can't really make a living selling high end bonsai "art" (some people doing it--but it's a slog...there is more money in high end bonsai POTS these days in the U.S. than in "masterpiece" trees) Traveling offers a source of more reliable income.

The model of paid, in-person bonsai instruction has a very long history here. There were folks back in the 90's that tried it and failed. Those people were mostly backyard practitioners who got ambitious, but hadn't gotten instruction themselves. There were a handful of Japanese-bonsai trained people, but you had to look hard. The hope these days is that the instructors (ever more of them getting hands-on experience in Japan) can fill the void. Same in the U.K., Europe and even Russia.

There is no accurate flow chart for a tree's development. They aren't all alike, owners aren't all alike and weather (at least here in the U.S.) is a huge factor in developing trees.

The flow chart concept wasn't intended as a literal laminated, one size fits all idea, but that a top end bonsai expert need not be teaching the horticultural aspect in any great depth. What I meant was that each species has it’s own characteristics and that by reading a few horticultural books and translating that to your local climate, you can effectively know how to care for and when to time certain things for them. Obviously a nudge is helpful here and there.

We don‘t need the top guys teaching that stuff. If we do, the system IS broken. I’m not denying that learning from other people is a fundamental key in educating yourself, but if Owen cant turn up to do a lecture on say, Scots Pines, and just crack on with advanced techniques because the people at the lecture aren’t ready for it, you have to ask why does he have to be the one to explain? There are enough educated people to teach to a point. You wouldn’t turn up to a Steven Hawking lecture and have expected him to explain what the Milky Way is, or put another way, you wouldn’t ask Bill Belichick to coach a high school football team. That’s just a waste of time.

I think artists should create art. I have no idea how much your average travelling bonsai teach makes, but surely the eternal gathering of wealth comes secondary to time spent with family and doing what you love. If you want to teach less, make bonsai and sell them and make less money but are more fulfilled that’s the route that makes sense to me.

Plus, how many 5 grand trees do you need to sell every year to be content? When Mirai had some trees for sale a few months ago they flew off the site. Maybe the education ground work was a major factor, but that was enough money to keep me going for the year in just a couple of days.

 

[sorce]

Solstice has nothing to do with much of anything. Growth has more to do with local soil temperatures and weather.

Amount of growth = temps.
Time of Growth = temps.

Solstice determines the pattern.

To verbally illustrate.

@M. Frary is "convinced" (don't know how to undickly say that) that he has no Summer solstice pause.
I believe he can find it in the buds of boxwoods, if not by the visually growth cues others are accustomed to.
Point being, even though we don't always see the effect of the Solstice, it by all means dictates the patterns. On conjunction with the moon if we take one step further.

I don't think people are hands-off enough to ever observe these subtle nuances.

Sorce

 

[Woocash]

This is the life long one for sure!

It is nice though, when you round out the education, and begin to combine all the hobbies...

Like a Garden Railroad with Bonsai tree decor, over a bridge spanning the koi pond, thru the chickem coop around the kiln thru the music studio where a soundtrack for this life is being created!

Sorce

True, that was a bit myopic. I do have several of what you could call hobbies that go hand in hand, but I have also left several that ultimately came to an impasse through boredom. How can you get bored of nature though?

 

[rockm]

The flow chart concept wasn't intended as a literal laminated, one size fits all idea, but that a top end bonsai expert need not be teaching the horticultural aspect in any great depth. What I meant was that each species has it’s own characteristics and that by reading a few horticultural books and translating that to your local climate, you can effectively know how to care for and when to time certain things for them. Obviously a nudge is helpful here and there.

We don‘t need the top guys teaching that stuff. If we do, the system IS broken. I’m not denying that learning from other people is a fundamental key in educating yourself, but if Owen cant turn up to do a lecture on say, Scots Pines, and just crack on with advanced techniques because the people at the lecture aren’t ready for it, you have to ask why does he have to be the one to explain? There are enough educated people to teach to a point. You wouldn’t turn up to a Steven Hawking lecture and have expected him to explain what the Milky Way is, or put another way, you wouldn’t ask Bill Belichick to coach a high school football team. That’s just a waste of time.

I think artists should create art. I have no idea how much your average travelling bonsai teach makes, but surely the eternal gathering of wealth comes secondary to time spent with family and doing what you love. If you want to teach less, make bonsai and sell them and make less money but are more fulfilled that’s the route that makes sense to me.

Plus, how many 5 grand trees do you need to sell every year to be content? When Mirai had some trees for sale a few months ago they flew off the site. Maybe the education ground work was a major factor, but that was enough money to keep me going for the year in just a couple of days.

Um, well, yeah, artists should create art, but artists have to eat. You'd have to sell a dozen $5 grand trees every year to keep your head above water in some metro areas, maybe seven elsewhere. but once you've sold those trees, buyers for them are even more scarce, unless you have a "patron" who's got deep pockets. As for Mirai, it's kind of unique. Location has a lot to do with it, I'd bet so does tech market money...

I'm something of an astronomy fan. If I went to a Stephen Hawking lecture, I'd hope he wouldn't be talking the same astrophysics and string theory he talks with colleagues about the entire time. I'd expect some stuff I could understand. His explanation of what the Milky Way is would probably be fascinating, because it wouldn't be the same stuff in the textbooks, I'd bet. Same for bonsai artists.

I understand the grind bonsai artists go through. It ain't pretty. More of them are settling down with their own studios, these days...That, however, is a direct result of their travelling. They haven't just nailed their sign to a post and thrown open their doors. They've developed their own markets and clients grinding out the miles on the road and at club meetings.

 

[rockm]

Amount of growth = temps.
Time of Growth = temps.

Solstice determines the pattern.

To verbally illustrate.

@M. Frary is "convinced" (don't know how to undickly say that) that he has no Summer solstice pause.
I believe he can find it in the buds of boxwoods, if not by the visually growth cues others are accustomed to.
Point being, even though we don't always see the effect of the Solstice, it by all means dictates the patterns. On conjunction with the moon if we take one step further.

I don't think people are hands-off enough to ever observe these subtle nuances.

Sorce

You mean daylight length and soil temperatures...well, yeah, the earth turns and tilts. We've had seasons for as long as I can remember.