Is the current bonsai instructional system broken?

[Adair M]

Child: “how does that work?”

Parent: “Ummmm.... don’t know, no one ever told me”

Lack of knowledge breeds stupidity breeds lack of knowledge breeds stupidity breeds lack of knowledge etc

If I’m asked about something that I’m totally ignorant of, I’m not afraid to admit it, and say, “Gee, I dunno! Let’s Google it!”

 

[PABonsai]

Good point.
I had the option of buying for cheap half an hectare (1.2 acres) of agricultural land. Was thinking about growing trunks for bonsai of some rare species. Untill I did the math on the hourly rates I would make. It would be better to start at McD's. Similar for running a bonsai school. Very few people are willing to pay the rates needed to make a class worthwhile, if you include the infrastructure needed. So very few people can actually make a living off bonsai, on direct instruction and trade.

The margins are not there because most people doing something for a hobby are hesitant to pay fair dollar for the assistance of professionals. If I pay 100USD for a day of instruction with a pro, I am told I am spending too much money..

That's not a bad price to pay for a professional if you are receiving one on one, but if you're in a workshop with 6 others and only getting 1/7 of that hour with the pro, now you're paying $100 for 9 minutes. The problem is if your only way of direct learning is paying that $100 monthly or even several times a month then it gets out of reach. And I think that's the dig here.

 

[Adair M]

Except that the glaring logical fallacy in your statement is that we aren't "using" the bonsai as a product. You analogy to using electricity would actually be analogous to us just looking at bonsai (i.e., using bonsai for it's intended purpose).

We are in fact seeking to PRACTICE bonsai. An accurate analogy would be someone trying to PRACTICE electrical work that isn't a "professional electrician". Would you say that to do electrical work, understanding electricity is not required just because that practitioner isn't an employed "professional"?


I think this is your real sentiment, which is that we should be treated like children and accept "Because I said so". But then how exactly does this thinking translate to so many pros having so many differing opinions of what "works"? Without a Master as in Japan if we have 3 experienced people telling us different things, which "Because I said so" should we follow?


By the way, I do not necessarily disagree with your overarching sentiment that many times "why" may not be important based on the simple fact that there are so many things about plants that simply put, no human knows. If there is a solid understanding of "why" then teaching that understanding is good. But there are actually many things that humans simply THINK that they know. So their "why" may be actually flat out wrong. We see this in pretty much every aspect of human society from science, to social science to statistics, etc. Old "why"s are being invalidated constantly.

If you find three different Masters teaching different techniques, then choose the one whose trees you like the most.

I chose Boon over Ryan Nei because I like Japanese Black Pine. I have access to them, and they do well in my climate. Ryan works with a lot of yamadori from the Pacific Northwest. We dont see many of those trees here in the Southeast.

So, for me, Boon was the better choice. For others, Ryan or Bjorn or Sherrard or Reich, or even Walter Pall may be a better fit.

The great thing is today we have choices. That hadn’t always been the case!

 

[Owen Reich]

My last bit was just addressing that specific comment by Mr. Reich. The logical meaning behind his comment leads one to assume that if his statement were his "preferred" relationship with his client then he will basically only be seeking wealthy clients. He said about it being easier for a client to just bring a pile of trees and leave them for months.

To explain in simple terms, we know that his bonsai experience and space in his garden won't be free to that client. So who normally can afford the time and space in a bonsai artists garden to just leave his trees for months on end? The wealthy. So if having this relationship is what he seeks, then he is only seeking the wealthy. This means if you're wealthy and you can afford months of training in the bonsai artist's space then you get the education.

I've said in previous posts what I think would be helpful. If some org like ABS instead of just being a phone directory would actually create a distribution of professionals so that maybe you don't have to travel so far. Maybe there could be semi annual classes in cities (not only huge ones) at the very least. They could organize pointed, topicked, relevant presentations/classes on a somewhat regular basis that are at least close to population centers. Yes, some really good clubs do that. But if there was a larger org behind it then it wouldn't depend on how good your not so local club might or might not be. Right now if I want to learn something about bonsai I can 1) take my chances with not necessarily verifiable online or book info 2) travel to the nearest nursery at possibly a few hundred bucks each month to sit in workshops 3) pay exorbitant class fees, travel, room and board to try going to the bonsai artist to learn (if you can even get in with the small class sizes). The only one most can afford is also the most questionable.

Bonsai pros always want to work with wealthy people; better material to work on, and often good taste, respect for our time, understanding what it costs to hire a consultant, etc. I’ve worked with crazy cat (as in 50 cats) ladies, children who saved up their odd job money to try bonsai, etc.

The idea of having study group members who receive training then share with the locals is the kind of ripple effect that will work in my opinion.

It must be reinforced with tactile training though.

Without patrons there isn’t much great art created. It’s really that simple. If you have bonsai, you are not worried about your next meal. I work with and help out many who can’t afford great bonsai, but show sincere interest.

Someone mentioned that the people who really want to learn, will succeed. I write this post as many bonsai pros seems to be tightening up their client lists. This can be attributed to the National Bonsai Exhibition, and the good natured competition to even get into Bill’s show now. That exhibition continues to impress, raise quality standards and inspire even the seasoned to push their own limits.

 

[leatherback]

The problem is if your only way of direct learning is paying that $100 monthly or even several times a month then it gets out of reach. And I think that's the dig here.

If you want to make 2000 USD per month, which consists of about 20 working days, you need to nett 100 USD a day. After taxes that might be as much as 250USD costs. Then add facilities etc and you need to get 400 USD a day to barely scratch a living out..

 

[PABonsai]

If you want to make 2000 USD per month, which consists of about 20 working days, you need to nett 100 USD a day. After taxes that might be as much as 250USD costs. Then add facilities etc and you need to get 400 USD a day to barely scratch a living out..

When an artist comes in for a workshop they usually have at least half a dozen visiting. And most workshops around here aren't full day. So now you're talking the potential of two workshops to make an 8 hour day with 8 students each. $1600 for a day isn't a bad haul if you ask me for one 8 hour shift. Now obviously it varies by place and person, but as a rough ballpark that's not far off around this area. They aren't teaching a workshop to 1 student per day for $100, not even close. I assume the nurseries they visit often pay for some of the living expenses and whatnot, ours does.

 

[PABonsai]

Bonsai pros always want to work with wealthy people; better material to work on, and often good taste, respect for our time, understanding what it costs to hire a consultant, etc. I’ve worked with crazy cat (as in 50 cats) ladies, children who saved up their odd job money to try bonsai, etc.

The idea of having study group members who receive training then share with the locals is the kind of ripple effect that will work in my opinion.

It must be reinforced with tactile training though.

Without patrons there isn’t much great art created. It’s really that simple. If you have bonsai, you are not worried about your next meal. I work with and help out many who can’t afford great bonsai, but show sincere interest.

Someone mentioned that the people who really want to learn, will succeed. I write this post as many bonsai pros seems to be tightening up their client lists. This can be attributed to the National Bonsai Exhibition, and the good natured competition to even get into Bill’s show now. That exhibition continues to impress, raise quality standards and inspire even the seasoned to push their own limits.

Trust me, I don't think you guys should be traveling indentured servants. I can imagine how difficult it is, and that's why my suggestion has nothing to do with forcing you guys to do more or make less. We all try to maximize earnings while minimizing labor. It's how everything works and I don't have a problem with you guys wanting that too.

 

[BrianBay9]

Okay, back to @Owen Reich original post.

I am lucky enough to be a member of a very active bonsai society. We have a plethora of classes, & workshops. We have several name teachers on multi-year contracts, where they return for several appearances every year. We also have quite a number of one time appearances by other artists. The club, Milwaukee Bonsai Society, is hosting the ABS / MABA / MBS 50 th Anniversary Exhibit - June 25 to 28, 2020

MABA/Milwaukee 202Two

www.milwaukeebonsai.org

Basically, I agree with @rockm Bonsai Education now is better than it ever was in my 40 years of trying to learn bonsai.

But there are problems. In the Milwaukee Bonsai Society, we have Beginner's Class, Beginner's Workshop, Bonsai Basics 3 class series, Novice Class, 6 class series, Intermediate Class also a 6 class series, and then we have the visiting artists holding 3 or more study group sessions for the "advanced" students. We also have the odd workshop on top of these classes. The problem is there is no coherence between these classes. What is covered is largely at the discretion of the instructor. There is no prerequisites for the membership prior to enrolling in any of the classes. You could walk in off the street and join the Intermediate Classes, or any of the "Master Classes" meaning the travelling artist lead study groups. Only requirement is you pay your MBS dues.

This is chaos, we have multiple instructors covering the same material over and over, granted each with their own "style". One of our instructors began with John Naka, another began with Ryan Neil, and makes the 3 or 4 trips a year to Ryan's place. We also have a couple SOB's, students of Boon. The result is a noob has plenty of learning opportunities, but no way to make head nor tail of which class to take in which order, or who to go to, in order to learn a specific topic. More than once an advanced group, got held up because of one of the dozen students was a complete novice, and the artist flown in from California ended up spending large amounts of time on basics that any of the seasoned MBS members could have taught, while the advanced students, waited for time on advanced problems. It is also not fair to the artist.

So we did what every group does, we formed a committee, that is going to develop a bonsai education curriculum. The intent is to bring coherence and a syllabus for each level of education. AND make the info available to the members. So they can look up what each offering covers, and the suggested sequence for taking the classes, workshops & whatever. Now this idea is not new, many clubs have some version of a curriculum on line, we have already begun plagiarizing from the websites of Phoenix Society, Houston, Portland, and have begun getting input from Peter Tea, Ted Matson, and the rest of the regular artists that regularly tour through Milwaukee.

One idea we are kicking around is some sort of specific competency teaching. Like getting a course in Wiring, or Grafting, or ? One thought was something like Boy Scout Merit Badges, you need a competency in say 5 or 10 areas to qualify for taking an advanced class. Of course, we don't want the concept to be a childish or as patronizing as the connotations one gets hearing the term "Boy Scouts".

Or must have taken a beginner's series and an intermediate series before taking advanced visiting artists.

Problem is, we are a group of volunteers. None of us have unlimited time. Also, we are all adults, well mostly adults, we do have a few teenagers. We regularly have members join who have extensive experience from living somewhere else. How do you rank each member's experience without being viewed as condescending or patronizing.

Don't have the answers yet. This project is low priority until after the June MABA Convention. Anyone reading this should plan on coming up to Milwaukee for the June 25 to 28, 2020 MABA / MBS 50th Anniversary Celebration. We will have many good vendors too.

There are a few areas around the country that are as fortunate as yours to have a significant concentration of interested people more or less serious about this pursuit. But just a few. Perhaps more than there used to be? I've been fortunate to live in a couple of those places, and have struggled to fill the void when I've moved to bonsai "deserts". At times I've been the most experienced member of a small club and did my best to teach. Then I've moved to great clubs where I was happy to provide support and learn from experts. It's quite a mixed bag around the US. That goodness for improving on-line opportunities to learn.

 

[Woocash]

If I’m asked about something that I’m totally ignorant of, I’m not afraid to admit it, and say, “Gee, I dunno! Let’s Google it!”

Yes, but you’re not stupid!

 

[Cadillactaste]

If you find three different Masters teaching different techniques, then choose the one whose trees you like the most.

I chose Boon over Ryan Nei because I like Japanese Black Pine. I have access to them, and they do well in my climate. Ryan works with a lot of yamadori from the Pacific Northwest. We dont see many of those trees here in the Southeast.

So, for me, Boon was the better choice. For others, Ryan or Bjorn or Sherrard or Reich, or even Walter Pall may be a better fit.

The great thing is today we have choices. That hadn’t always been the case!

Looking at it this way. We really have come a long way from early beginnings.

 

[Adair M]

Bonsai pros always want to work with wealthy people; better material to work on, and often good taste, respect for our time, understanding what it costs to hire a consultant, etc. I’ve worked with crazy cat (as in 50 cats) ladies, children who saved up their odd job money to try bonsai, etc.

The idea of having study group members who receive training then share with the locals is the kind of ripple effect that will work in my opinion.

It must be reinforced with tactile training though.

Without patrons there isn’t much great art created. It’s really that simple. If you have bonsai, you are not worried about your next meal. I work with and help out many who can’t afford great bonsai, but show sincere interest.

Someone mentioned that the people who really want to learn, will succeed. I write this post as many bonsai pros seems to be tightening up their client lists. This can be attributed to the National Bonsai Exhibition, and the good natured competition to even get into Bill’s show now. That exhibition continues to impress, raise quality standards and inspire even the seasoned to push their own limits.

As for Pros tightening up their client lists...

Boon has told me that he gets frustrated when he goes to a client’s place, and does some work on a tree, and instructs the owner of what the owner should do during the time he’s away, and Boon will perform the next step when he, Boon, returns. And then the client gets another Pro in the garden during the meantime, and that Pro works on the tree, spoiling the prep work that Boon had done. Boon has fired several clients because of this!

So, either use only one Pro, or be sure to designate which trees get worked by which Pro.

 

[bwaynef]

Ultimately, bonsai pros need to develop great trees. ABSOLUTELY. GREAT. TREES. Then they need to expose the public to them. This solves all the problems.

Wealthy folks will see those trees and want them ...or some like them, and you're sitting pretty to either sell those trees or to help them get new material/stock and create it/care for it.
Ambitious folks will see those trees and understand what is possible. They'll likely be inspired to seek knowledge and join a club, or maybe go online.
Lazy folks will see those trees and understand that what THEY have been calling bonsai, isn't really bonsai. More importantly, anyone ELSE that sees these great trees will quickly understand these lazy folks don't know what they're talking about.

 

[Lars Grimm]

Good point.
I had the option of buying for cheap half an hectare (1.2 acres) of agricultural land. Was thinking about growing trunks for bonsai of some rare species. Untill I did the math on the hourly rates I would make. It would be better to start at McD's. Similar for running a bonsai school. Very few people are willing to pay the rates needed to make a class worthwhile, if you include the infrastructure needed. So very few people can actually make a living off bonsai, on direct instruction and trade.

The margins are not there because most people doing something for a hobby are hesitant to pay fair dollar for the assistance of professionals. If I pay 100USD for a day of instruction with a pro, I am told I am spending too much money..

Honestly, most of the numbers floated by folks about how much a bonsai professional should be paid seem pitifully low to me. Education at any level is expensive and usually gets more expensive the better trained the teacher. There are probably less than a dozen bonsai professionals based in the United States who have completed a formal apprenticeship in Japan. When you factor in the time spent in travel, a single day of workshops/private instruction is often 2.5-3 days of time. Asking for $1k or more for a full day doesn't sound crazy to me. Sure you are pricing a lot of people out of the market, but that reflects the small number of teachers available and is not the fault of bonsai professionals.

 

[BackyardBonsai]

When an artist comes in for a workshop they usually have at least half a dozen visiting. And most workshops around here aren't full day. So now you're talking the potential of two workshops to make an 8 hour day with 8 students each. $1600 for a day isn't a bad haul if you ask me for one 8 hour shift. Now obviously it varies by place and person, but as a rough ballpark that's not far off around this area. They aren't teaching a workshop to 1 student per day for $100, not even close. I assume the nurseries they visit often pay for some of the living expenses and whatnot, ours does.

I just had one 4 hours workshop with a pro that come to our area. I paid $60 for that which I think is very reasonable. We have 8 students so everyone only get a little bit of his time. The thing is I know what the pro is good at.... as I have seen many of his trees. On top of that I want to work on the same type of trees he is good at and I know exactly what I would like to learn from the session... wiring for initial structure on JBP. Although I didn't get a whole lot of his time but what he has shown me is valuable that I will be coming back when he in town again. The important thing is I feel I get a lot out of that 60 bucks so I think it is a good price... everything is relative in my humble opinion.

 

[Adair M]

Honestly, most of the numbers floated by folks about how much a bonsai professional should be paid seem pitifully low to me. Education at any level is expensive and usually gets more expensive the better trained the teacher. There are probably less than a dozen bonsai professionals based in the United States who have completed a formal apprenticeship in Japan. When you factor in the time spent in travel, a single day of workshops/private instruction is often 2.5-3 days of time. Asking for $1k or more for a full day doesn't sound crazy to me. Sure you are pricing a lot of people out of the market, but that reflects the small number of teachers available and is not the fault of bonsai professionals.

And then there’s this:

Unfortunately, the “average bonsai” here in the US is crap when compared to what the guys who apprenticed in Japan are used to working in. A Pro who worked in Japan had excellent material to work on, usually very full, lots of branches, age, character, etc.

Here’s we’re just trying to grow trunks, start development, improve nebari, etc.

The highly trained Pros don’t really have the material available that lets them display their talents. And without that material, it’s difficult for them to maintain that high degree of competence of styling great trees. Oh, applying wire is pretty much the same, it’s what is done USING that wire is the real skill, the “art” of bonsai.

 

[Anthony]

Guys could we have some reality.
Economics

If you pay $60.00 for an hour or two in a club
do you have trees to justify the cost ?

You are in a club to cut costs.

This is getting silly, money does it wishes.
The less fortunate just manage.

If a pro, wants more, he is in the wrong business.

Clubs are for cutting costs.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

Guys could we have some reality.
Economics

If you pay $60.00 for an hour or two in a club
do you have trees to justify the cost ?

You are in a club to cut costs.

This is getting silly, money does it wishes.
The less fortunate just manage.

If a pro, wants more, he is in the wrong business.

Clubs are for cutting costs.
Good Day
Anthony

No they’re not.

 

[Woocash]

Funny, people will spend hundreds on a tree, but don’t want to spend the same on learning how to make it better. I am gobsmacked at the prices of some trees around the place, so you would think it would be easily justifiable for the pros to charge more for their secrets.

 

[Owen Reich]

I’ve fired clients, and gained new ones by too many cooks in the kitchen.

As for Pros tightening up their client lists...

Boon has told me that he gets frustrated when he goes to a client’s place, and does some work on a tree, and instructs the owner of what the owner should do during the time he’s away, and Boon will perform the next step when he, Boon, returns. And then the client gets another Pro in the garden during the meantime, and that Pro works on the tree, spoiling the prep work that Boon had done. Boon has fired several clients because of this!

So, either use only one Pro, or be sure to designate which trees get worked by which Pro.

And then there’s this:

Unfortunately, the “average bonsai” here in the US is crap when compared to what the guys who apprenticed in Japan are used to working in. A Pro who worked in Japan had excellent material to work on, usually very full, lots of branches, age, character, etc.

Here’s we’re just trying to grow trunks, start development, improve nebari, etc.

The highly trained Pros don’t really have the material available that lets them display their talents. And without that material, it’s difficult for them to maintain that high degree of competence of styling great trees. Oh, applying wire is pretty much the same, it’s what is done USING that wire is the real skill, the “art” of bonsai.

I used to stay up all night when on the road to style the trees that were worth it off the clock if there was a time crunch (me being in a random city). That is generally not what happens, as the trees brought to workshops are almost always “good deal” trees that aren’t great. Fully confident it sandbagged my abilities working on nursery stock so often.

The really tricky thing that America will have to navigate is the ebb and flow of bonsai nurseries started by hobbiests that don’t know their ass from their elbow, then provide advice to the uninitiated. I’ve seen this cancer spread through clubs like wildfire as the well meaning “40 years of experience” club member tells every new member the way things are. Big problem. Then pros show up and they defer to their mentor or are confused as hell when I say their trees need to be rebooted or tossed.

 

[Owen Reich]

Funny, people will spend hundreds on a tree, but don’t want to spend the same on learning how to make it better. I am gobsmacked at the prices of some trees around the place, so you would think it would be easily justifiable for the pros to charge more for their secrets.

You just described the Japanese biz model. Except there they don’t teach the customers unless they want to be involved at the high end level. There are newbs butchering rough stock in Japan too . There are also lots of shitty trees there. They just don’t show them to anyone on the Intl level.

The clients basically treat the truly great bonsai as living art pieces, but they are passed on like fine art. Auctions, appraisals, dealers, agents, translators, etc. The market ebbs and flows. Kimura’s work is big this year. Now Ebihara’s maples are released from a major private collection.... It just like Southerby’s, but broken down by quality tiers. There are local lower quality bonsai tree and bonsai pot auctions all over Japan.